Science must destroy religion

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What has the French Revolution got to do with the questions I asked BearnardM regarding his claims about religion?

Sarah x 🙂
Your question implies that said behaviors are somehow something only religions are guilty of/should be questioned over having. Your question also assumes that said behaviors arise from religion itself. The French Revolution highlights the error in you implication and assumptions.

Additionally, the French Revolution illustrates the fact that religion is a required aspect of human culture/society through the examples of the various cults created during that time period, some of which were expressly created as a replacement for Christianity.
 
The endevors, and perseverance of brave man and women, often to the endangerment of their own lives.
Your avoiding the question and giving a nebulous answer. Modern scientific theory developed in a specific geological area, it also mirrors an older practice used in that area. Care to venture what it is?

Whose life was endangered, I would suggest you read the actual history of the church and science before you try going down that Dan Brown road.
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atheistgirl:
By religion, do you mean any religion, so long as it’s a religion?
Any of the major ones.
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atheistgirl:
If it teaches women are secondclass citizens, apostates must be killed, or it’s ok to lie to an unbeliever, are those good morals and ethics for the religion to pass on?
Women being in lower social station men predates any religion or written history. If you want to blame anything blame neolithic pragmatism on who was better at killing food and carrying carcasses. Who outside of a small group of extremist believes that apostates should be killed. Outside of one religion when was the last time you heard any clergyman make any such declaration.

Compare that to the author who is simply following in the footsteps of the Jacobins, Bolsheviks, or the CPC. While you can take objection to the actions of a few fanatics, those fanatics cannot engage in genocidal acts of state policy unlike the majority of intelligentsia putting ignorant believers in their place.
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atheistgirl:
Where there are two or more religions, as in the middle east, I don’t think religion has helped bond those peoples, and I have serious doubts about the ethics of the conduct of all sides.
That is because wider issues are at lay, you have 3 different groups competing for resources they are going to be at each others throats regardless of religion or lack there of.
 
Your question implies that said behaviors are somehow something only religions are guilty of/should be questioned over having.
No, my question to BearnardM was about the claims he made about religion, not anything I was implying about religion.
Your question also assumes that said behaviors arise from religion itself.
You are the one making assumptions here, I merely asked a question about a claim for religion that was made. But as you brought it up, yes, it’s patently obvious that such behaviors can and do arize from religions, but religion is not necessary and I never claimed it was.
The French Revolution highlights the error in you implication and assumptions.
No because I didnt assume anything. You’re the one making assumptions. The French Revolution, other than highlighting the link between the clergy and noble class while the general population was starving, is irrelevant.

Sarah x 🙂
 
The amount of money being spent on these Large Hadron Colliders, if Europeans are so worried about the poor I would advise stopping research at once!

So far they have found nothing, only that God protects certain elements of science, and no amount of research can reveal His greatness.

I watch with pity when I see these merchants of death looking for a way around God, and their folly is pathetic.
 
The paper reads like it was written by a twelve year old, with no background in philosophy at all.

I suppose the kind of people who would like his article would be unlikely even to understand any response that could be given.
 
The paper reads like it was written by a twelve year old, with no background in philosophy at all.

I suppose the kind of people who would like his article would be unlikely even to understand any response that could be given.
The work was carried out by Maria Engström, a she, and her Ph.D was in Quantum Chemical Calculations of Electron Magnetic Resonance Parameters of Biological Radicals. Her post doc work has been in brain imaging and function.

Sarah x 🙂
 
My initial statement was:
Actually the starting point of this exchange between us was where you said*

“If science destroys religion it destroys itself because science is based on the Christian belief that the universe is intelligible and we are rational!”

So that is the statement that I am arguing to be incorrect.*

You did also say in a previous exchange that*

“Science without morality is a recipe for disaster.”

In response to another post of mine and I demonstrated back on post #36 why that was a total non-sequitur as well (essentially you were arguing against a position nobody had taken, or to put it another way, you were guilty of the straw man fallacy). Since you didn’t reply I assumed you had understood.*
If science is the only valid explanation of reality science cannot explain morality. It follows that science without morality is a recipe for disaster.
Science explains why we have morality, and it explains why our morals are the way they are. It isn’t in itself a basis for morality, because science is just a process. And again nobody argued against the statement “science without morality is a recipe for disaster” indeed you could equally replace the word “science” in that sentence with any number of alternate words - ie society, people, groups, exploration, art, medicine… Etc and the sentence still works fine. Or you could just say “people need morality”. Again you are arguing against a straw man since nobody is arguing that we don’t need morality.*
Sheer nonsense!
Without people there may be unused scientific instruments but they will be useless. The scientific *method will cease to work because there is no one to work it!
Not at all, science cares not one whit who, or what or when or even if it is used. The process is simply observation and test, you could argue that some animals (ie chimps) undertake a basic form of science. They observe (ie I did x and received a reward) and test (I’ll try that again and see if I get another reward). Obviously it’s not the formal scientific method but so what?

This is off the point in any case. Your original statement was that science is in some way dependent on religion. Clearly this is incorrect.*
It is not silly but absurd to believe there will not be global holocaust without religion:
By all means, show that it follows then.
  1. Religion is a foundation for morality
Disagree, indeed even many people who claim to take their morals from their religion in fact select some morals from the religion and ignore others. So clearly their foundation for their morality is not in fact their religion (otherwise they’d have no basis on which to make their selections from the religion).

And even if we accepted for the moment that it is a foundation upon which SOME people build their morality, it is perfectly clear that it is not the foundation upon which ALL people build their morality.
  1. Science is not a foundation for morality
Incorrect, it could quite easily fill the role of religion in the dubious “foundation” sense you mentioned in 1.*

Personally, I’d argue that ultimately empathy is THE foundation of morality. And empathy is explained by our evolution as a social species. But if you want to use the term “a foundation” in the sense of what religion provides then there’s no reason the social sciences can’t fill that gap just fine.
  1. Therefore science without religion is a recipe for disaster
Which is a total non-sequitur EVEN IF we accepted both of your (incorrect) points above.

To demonstrate (just in case it’s not entirely clear to you why) you have said.
  1. A is a foundation of x
  2. B is not a foundation for x
    3a. (I guess you meant to add this one but forgot) without x we’d probably have a disaster
    3b. Therefore B without A would probably result in disaster.
But you forgot to eliminate all other possibilities from providing a foundation for x or indeed that x even requires a “foundation” to be useful.

So, all in all this is pretty weak,*first up try going back to the drawing board with 1 and 2, then eliminate all other possible foundations for morality. Then maybe you’ll have a cogent argument.
 
Personally, I’d argue that ultimately empathy is THE foundation of morality. And empathy is explained by our evolution as a social species…
:clapping::clapping::clapping:

It’s just awesome when sense shines through all the verbage 😃

Sarah x 🙂
 
I do not think scientists will agree with Sam Harris. Nearly 50% of scientists are religious, they do not seem to have problem complementing religion with science.
That statements is not logical. There are no peer reviewed, scientific studies related to religion - none. The very frequent comment here is science is silent about God/gods or the supernatural. It is obvious that science can’t put God or the soul in the lab and make tests.

From the science journal, Nature:

stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html

And then there’s this:

evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/misconceps/IVAandreligion.shtml

Why is berkeley.edu doing this? They were sued over this.

Peace,
Ed
 
Totally agree with this.

I have seen science improve the world through medicine, agriculture, engineering, but I have yet to see hunger, transport issues, poverty, disease, and security be addressed by faith.

Sarah x 🙂
Science when misused can be disastrous. Do you know why the Nobel Prize was set up? That’s because the inventor of dynamic & ballistic was so disillusioned to see his invention meant to used in mining and building project become military weapons.

Heard of genetic profiling and genetic discrimination? It could be a threat to future generation to come, and that include your children and your grandchildren.

Science is a double-edged sword. Do you have faith that people can will it properly? The damages it unleashes linger on, even till the day you are no longer living on this earth and your descendants are the one who have to face the damages.

Do you know about the birth defects little babies suffered when Agent Orange was unleashed, when the atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima, or when the Chernobyl nuclear station exploded? Can science give them back the dignity that science steal from them? Can you?

What makes science more dangerous than religion is that religion has an ultimate goal of good: that humanity is loved and social welfare is upheld. Science is driven by a complexity of motivations: curiosity, profit, material comfort. And among all these motivational drivers, 90% of scientific research funded today are profit-driven.

I am in this industry. I know how corrupted it can become.
 
Absoltely not.

No and I’m well aware of the bias in the mainstream media outlets.

I guess the reason it makes headlines is a Chrisian Muslim or whoever doing such things is patently against their declared agenda of peace and love to all mankind.

The claim by BearnardM was that religion is a unifying moral and ethical code for society to live by. I think you only have to look at what’s happening in the middle east now, or what happened in Beziers in the 1200s for example to know that blanket claim is not true.

Sarah x 🙂
So non-religious people, by your definition, are incapable of behaving badly? Just read up on Joseph Stalin or the capture of Polish General Anders at the start of World War II by the Russians. As he was being taken to Lubyanka prison, his Blessed Virgin Mary pin fell to the ground. One of the Russian guards said, “You think that b*tch is going to help you in here?”

Then check on Stalin’s body count for the war, including the Holodomor in the Ukraine.

Peace,
Ed
 
Science when misused can be disastrous. Do you know why the Nobel Prize was set up? That’s because the inventor of dynamic & ballistic was so disillusioned to see his invention meant to used in mining and building project become military weapons.

Heard of genetic profiling and genetic discrimination? It could be a threat to future generation to come, and that include your children and your grandchildren.

Science is a double-edged sword. Do you have faith that people can will it properly? The damages it unleashes linger on, even till the day you are no longer living on this earth and your descendants are the one who have to face the damages.

Do you know about the birth defects little babies suffered when Agent Orange was unleashed, when the atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima, or when the Chernobyl nuclear station exploded? Can science give them back the dignity that science steal from them? Can you?

What makes science more dangerous than religion is that religion has an ultimate goal of good: that humanity is loved and social welfare is upheld. Science is driven by a complexity of motivations: curiosity, profit, material comfort. And among all these motivational drivers, 90% of scientific research funded today are profit-driven.

I am in this industry. I know how corrupted it can become.
This, 10 times over. This sunny eyed “humanism” (I use the word in the sense of the secular religion, not the traditional humanitarian philosophy) is dangerously naive. One of the most important lessons that religion can teach a person, in regards to this world, is NOT to put one’s faith in people. “The world loves darkness.”
 
My initial statement was:
If science is the only valid explanation of reality science cannot explain morality. It follows that science without morality is a recipe for disaster.
Sheer nonsense!

Without people there may be unused scientific instruments but they will be useless. The scientific method will cease to work because there is no one to work it!
It is not silly but absurd to believe there will not be global holocaust without religion:
  1. Religion is a foundation for morality
  2. Science is not a foundation for morality
  3. Therefore science without religion is a recipe for disaster
👍👍👍
 
I am a molecular biologist by training and I can attest to that.

Have you ever heard of bad science?
Thank you for that, although I found other things on the site a bit dubious. There is evidence that bees are having problems due to a certain pesticide, but why worry about bees and stop making money on the pesticide? Rule number one: There is no such thing as too much money.

sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120329141912.htm

Peace,
Ed
 
The endevors, and perseverance of brave man and women, often to the endangerment of their own lives.
Haha, that’s not where the modern science came from. Most modern science came from church and catholic laity. Roger Bacon gave us the empirical methods. Isaac Newton gave us the three laws. Thanks to Blaise Pascal for the first mechanical calculator. Fr. Gregor Mendel is the father of the genetic field. We have Louis Pasteur to thank for vaccines and safe milk to drink. The Big Bang theory was first proposed by Fr. Georges Lemaitre.

I can go on and on…
 
Science when misused can be disastrous.
Yes I agree, as can anything if it’s misused, including religion.
Do you know why the Nobel Prize was set up?
Yes.
Heard of genetic profiling and genetic discrimination? It could be a threat to future generation to come, and that include your children and your grandchildren.
Potentially.
Do you have faith that people can will it properly?
Ultimately, yes I do.
The damages it unleashes linger on, even till the day you are no longer living on this earth and your descendants are the one who have to face the damages.
I agree.
Can science give them back the dignity that science steal from them?
As you said, it’s the misuse of science that is the problem.
Not directly, but I’m very actively involved in environmental campaigns and sustainability projects, as I’m very aware we are only stewards on this earth for the next generation.
I am in this industry. I know how corrupted it can become.
I have no doubt that’s the case. Where ever people are, there too will be corruption, to some degree or other. Even the Churches and faith groups are not immune to this, because they are made up of people.

But ultimately I believe people will do what’s right - right by us and right by the environment.

Sarah x 🙂
 
So non-religious people, by your definition, are incapable of behaving badly?
Where have I said or implied that :confused:

Non religious people are every bit as capable of behaving badly as people of faith. I’ve never said otherwise.

Sarah x 🙂
 
Haha, that’s not where the modern science came from. Most modern science came from church and catholic laity. Roger Bacon gave us the empirical methods. Isaac Newton gave us the three laws. Thanks to Blaise Pascal for the first mechanical calculator. Fr. Gregor Mendel is the father of the genetic field. We have Louis Pasteur to thank for vaccines and safe milk to drink. The Big Bang theory was first proposed by Fr. Georges Lemaitre.

I can go on and on…
I’m aware of all these great people and their contribution to science.

Did they build on the earlier efforts of Non Catholic scholars such as the ancient greeks, or the great Islamic scholars such as these? al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter11/4.html
or were they working in a bubble?

Sarah x 🙂
 
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