Science must destroy religion

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Touch,

You say that you would not use aggravating…I just summarized your thoughts seen here.
OK, I see now why you used that word, thanks for pointing it out. The aggravation comes from the now-tiresome invocation of this line from Christians:

“If I didn’t have Jesus, I’d be out stealin’, whorin’, and throwing newborn puppies into the river, ALL THE TIME”.

No they wouldn’t. They know it, I know it. They know I know it. But it gets put out there, time and again. It’s a shibboleth, a kind of Christian cultural reflex. It’s not aggravating that it’s a reflex (some Christian reflexes are good!), but this one is just shining critics on, and in a clumsy way.
So, help me understand you do you see it as aggravating or not aggravating?
The “Without Jesus I’d be Jeffrey Dahmer” schtick is aggravating. The Christian narrative for man’s moral character I’d characterize as “perverse”. I guess that might be aggravating in some sense, but it’s offensive and problematic at a much deeper level that “aggravating” seems to trivialize.

-TS
 
If by “what makes men moral”, you mean “the Christian God”, then yes. “Aggravating” is not the adjective I’d use, but close enough. If by “what makes men moral”, you mean “millions of years of biological adaptation”, then no, I have no problem with that.

Right. Individuals vary. You are going to have some bad apples in every harvest of apples.

No, not at all. Some individuals, through some combination of genetic and environmental factors, are socially maladapted. Some are so severely dysfunctional they are threats to themselves and others around them. But having (or lacking) a basic understanding of their predicament is neither the cause of the problem, nor the solution to it, as I understand it.

Yes, this is well attested to by the evidence we have available to us.

Yes. Empathy is not a “nice to have”. It’s integral to the species’ survival. Without it, we would not have the social cohesion and gregarious cooperative abilities we have that enable us to survive and thrive.

Well, preferable in that it’s grounded in the evidence, it’s a falsifiable idea, and it’s amenable to the furthering of new knowledge on top of it, yes.

It’s a somewhat bleak picture for the same reasons, if only because evolution is such a unthnkably slow process. We can adapt to many problems that confront us, and the development of language and culture make the prospects of progress brighter than if we were just social animals without those faculties. But even so, human nature is here to stay, for better and worse. It’s not going to change quickly. That’s great when thinking about the more sublime aspects of humanity’s evolved psychology: charity, altruism, creativity, affection, love, etc. The dark side of our nature will also endure, long into our future, as well, though.

But it is what it is. I do prefer to see as clearly as I can, better for or worse, where I can, over clinging to anodyne superstition.

-TS
Touch,

You stated this in your post…
You know the people saying these things are human, though, so broadly speaking (there are and will be anti-social and psychopathic individuals in any large group), these people just lack a basic understanding of themselves. They have empathy and a moral conscious wired into them by millions of years of adaption, the product of natural evolution not some sorcery worked by an imaginary god.
I summarized it as follows
You believe that there are anti-social and psychopathic individuals in any large group. You believe that the cause is that these people just lack a basic understanding of themselves.
Your response is in red…No, not at all.

Help me understand then what it is you are trying to say based on what you said, what I summarized and your reformulation.
 
You still think God is evil? Name one this that Jesus or Mary did that was evil?
Jesus and God are the same Divinity no? :confused:

Isn’t that a fundamental of the Trinity?

One God, three persons or expressions of this God; the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

So what God did, Jesus did.

Wasn’t there a heresy put down, where a group tried to say that the Jesus of the NT was a different person to the God of the OT?

I don’t think many would doubt God accepting a sacrifice of a man’s daughter, to keep a promise in war, or the putting to the sword of a whole tribe, then being sent back to finish the job when some were spared, or stoning a man to death for collecting wood on a Sunday, were morally questionable at the very least.

The God who commanded this, and Jesus, are one and the same.

Sarah x 🙂
 
It’s not exactly what you were expounding, no. It is however simply a matter of applying logic to what you expounded.
Since you conceded that is not what I expounded, don’t you think there will be no ground for you to apply logic on something I did not expound?
You argued that the people who are allocating resources (powerful people) change the way that they allocate those resources from the method they used which got them to be powerful people (in other words the successful method). In other words to be less competative at being in that position. Clearly this would make them less successful, thus due to the high level of competition that exists at the top, they would not be on the top for very long.
I was not arguing for a new methodology to allocate resources. I was arguing for a more just and equitable mentality while allocating resources. It means not exploiting resources at the expense of another’s well being. Being equitable does not make a corporate or business less competitive. On the contrary, corporate are moving towards cultivating an image of social responsibility. General Electric, Shell, IBM, Google, to name a few, are some corporations that recognize the importance of social responsibility and they are still the market leaders of their respective industry. But I think they are the minority.
Ok, but i never said it would. You were complaining about free market economy, I suggested you develop a better system.
Again, I wasn’t complaining but pointing out the inherent unjust mentality that explains the financial market fallout today. It is the same mentality that inhibits the benefits of science to be applied more efficiently for the society.

The inhibition of science, in the context of its applicable benefits to the society, is largely a result of an unjust economic practice. Therefore, do not use religion as the scapegoat. Religion does not inhibit science. The Church encourages the moral conscious to care for one’s brother while the fruit of science is being translated into the well being of the society. There is no ground to abolish or bash religion in this regard.
 
Help me understand then what it is you are trying to say based on what you said, what I summarized and your reformulation.
OK, happy to keep trying to make myself clear (sorry I’ve not done well with you on this thus far), but please first confirm that you read my post in response to you here, and that that reply didn’t make things clear for you. I suspect you replied here before seeing my most recent reply to you… replies crossing each other in transit, so to speak.

-TS
 
If by “what makes men moral”, you mean “the Christian God”, then yes. “Aggravating” is not the adjective I’d use, but close enough. If by “what makes men moral”, you mean “millions of years of biological adaptation”, then no, I have no problem with that.

Right. Individuals vary. You are going to have some bad apples in every harvest of apples.

No, not at all. Some individuals, through some combination of genetic and environmental factors, are socially maladapted. Some are so severely dysfunctional they are threats to themselves and others around them. But having (or lacking) a basic understanding of their predicament is neither the cause of the problem, nor the solution to it, as I understand it.

Yes, this is well attested to by the evidence we have available to us.

Yes. Empathy is not a “nice to have”. It’s integral to the species’ survival. Without it, we would not have the social cohesion and gregarious cooperative abilities we have that enable us to survive and thrive.

Well, preferable in that it’s grounded in the evidence, it’s a falsifiable idea, and it’s amenable to the furthering of new knowledge on top of it, yes.

It’s a somewhat bleak picture for the same reasons, if only because **evolution is such a unthnkably slow process. **We can adapt to many problems that confront us, and the **development of language and culture **make the prospects of progress brighter than if we were just social animals without those faculties. **But even so, human nature is here to stay, for better and worse. It’s not going to change quickly. **That’s great when thinking about the more sublime aspects of humanity’s evolved psychology: charity, altruism, creativity, affection, love, etc. The dark side of our nature will also endure, long into our future, as well, though.

But it is what it is. I do prefer to see as clearly as I can, better for or worse, where I can, over clinging to anodyne superstition.

-TS
Touch,

I am not debating whether evolution is a theory or a fact.

Based on what you say here is it fair to say that you would agree that based on evolution theory or fact that it occurs slowly?

Is it fair to say that in the evolution that language and culture are part of the process?

Is it fair to say that Human Nature as you say changes slowly as well?

When you speak of evolution is it fair to say that things were different or the same concerning thought

2000 years ago?

2500 years ago?

3500 years ago?

4000 years ago?

and also help me understand what you would define as “evolved psychology” so I may understand you.🙂
 
OK, happy to keep trying to make myself clear (sorry I’ve not done well with you on this thus far), but please first confirm that you read my post in response to you here, and that that reply didn’t make things clear for you. I suspect you replied here before seeing my most recent reply to you… replies crossing each other in transit, so to speak.

-TS
Touch,

I saw the post I am just trying to get a handle on what you are saying for understanding.
 
A good point, as a reading of the business press will show that fantasy was exchanged with reality. Those charged with valuing homes just kept prices going up and up (to infinity?), Wall Street took this false information, packaged it into Credit Default Swaps and knew when everything would fall of the cliff.
I know. They caught the culprit. Goldman Sachs. There was a public hearing on this, I think last year? I watched the hearing and was very astonished that they showed no remorse while bragging about selling CDS to widows and orphans, insisting that they were merely ensuring financial market efficiency. They claimed that they are doing “God’s work”!
Do you know why the Ford Motor Company did not get a government bailout? Because their own people, tasked with watching the Stock Market, saw strange things happening and quickly began moving assets.
I thought Ford did not need a bailout. I am under the impression that the family-owned business is very well run. Well, at least not a ****** as General Motor and Chrysler.
 
Touch,

I am not debating whether evolution is a theory or a fact.

Based on what you say here is it fair to say that you would agree that based on evolution theory or fact that it occurs slowly?
Yes.
Is it fair to say that in the evolution that language and culture are part of the process?
Yes.
Is it fair to say that Human Nature as you say changes slowly as well?
Yes.
When you speak of evolution is it fair to say that things were different or the same concerning thought
2000 years ago?
2500 years ago?
3500 years ago?
4000 years ago?
and also help me understand what you would define as “evolved psychology” so I may understand you.🙂
Nothing major changes in 4000 years. That is just “one frame in a very long movie”, on the time scales of human development. But while culture is a product of evolution, like the language faculties that preceded and enabled it, culture itself is not governed by genetic variations. It takes a developmental course of its own, and changes much more quickly (!).

But human biology remains basically what it was and what it will be, even so. Humans will be social, gregarious, loving, creative, selfish, empathetic, cruel, paranoid superstitious animals obsessed with sex like they have been far into the future. These impulses stem from our biological foundation, and change so slowly that for our practical purposes here, they are constants.

Think of that as layered, then. Biology being the (basically) static substrate on which our cultural development rests. Culture changes rapidly by comparison, but it is always rooted in human psychology, so it will reflect, to some degree or other, all those “fixed” features of humanity that we have wired into our brains by evolution. This means our culture can (and does, of course) change not just within 4,000 years, but within a generation – 60 years ago racism was a dominant view in the American South’s culture. Now, it’s just slightly less dominant. 🙂 Progress is progress.

In a few generations, I suspect the demonization of homosexuality will seem as barbaric and archaic as the overt and proud racism of the George Wallace South, despite the Roman Church’s best efforts to keep homosexuality “sinful”. I point this out as an example of broad and fairly rapid change in human thinking and social mores, which I contrast with the “intrinsics” of human biology. A culture which has progressed enough to get beyond George Wallace and the Pope is a good thing, but it is STILL necessarily rooted in human nature. People will remain selfish, loving, cruel, ingenious, paranoid, etc. Hopefully the degrees to which the noble parts of our evolved nature are emphasized are greater.

Science is invaluable in understanding this view of reality, and identifying the parts of our nature that our culture can emphasize that are noble and which promote human flourishing (to invoke a favorite phrase of Sam Harris). Religion in general and Catholicism in particular is alternately just confused and anti-progress on these matters, on the whole.

-TS
 
Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Nothing major changes in 4000 years. That is just “one frame in a very long movie”, on the time scales of human development. But while culture is a product of evolution, like the language faculties that preceded and enabled it, culture itself is not governed by genetic variations. It takes a developmental course of its own, and changes much more quickly (!).

But human biology remains basically what it was and what it will be, even so. Humans will be social, gregarious, loving, creative, selfish, empathetic, cruel, paranoid superstitious animals obsessed with sex like they have been far into the future. These impulses stem from our biological foundation, and change so slowly that for our practical purposes here, they are constants.

Think of that as layered, then. Biology being the (basically) static substrate on which our cultural development rests. Culture changes rapidly by comparison, but it is always rooted in human psychology, so it will reflect, to some degree or other, all those “fixed” features of humanity that we have wired into our brains by evolution. This means our culture can (and does, of course) change not just within 4,000 years, but within a generation – 60 years ago racism was a dominant view in the American South’s culture. Now, it’s just slightly less dominant. 🙂 Progress is progress.

In a few generations, I suspect the demonization of homosexuality will seem as barbaric and archaic as the overt and proud racism of the George Wallace South, despite the Roman Church’s best efforts to keep homosexuality “sinful”. I point this out as an example of broad and fairly rapid change in human thinking and social mores, which I contrast with the “intrinsics” of human biology. A culture which has progressed enough to get beyond George Wallace and the Pope is a good thing, but it is STILL necessarily rooted in human nature. People will remain selfish, loving, cruel, ingenious, paranoid, etc. Hopefully the degrees to which the noble parts of our evolved nature are emphasized are greater.

Science is invaluable in understanding this view of reality, and identifying the parts of our nature that our culture can emphasize that are noble and which promote human flourishing (to invoke a favorite phrase of Sam Harris). Religion in general and Catholicism in particular is alternately just confused and anti-progress on these matters, on the whole.

-TS
Touch,

I will agree that man is man and that for us to believe that we are so different in time as you say, biology is what it is. We agree here. Biological Foundations and the like have not changed much. OK

When you speak of Culture I believe I sense that you are speaking of how we see things and this I would say is not Culture rather evolution of thought. I truly believe in evolution of thought. Is this what you are calling evolved psychology?

May I introduce the notion of “Memes” or mind viruses. While thought does change some thoughts are transmitted in time and do not change so that they are what they are then and now. OK.

Next I would ask if you consider that in time there were Polythiesitic Cultures, Athiestic Cultures and Monothiestic Cultures and in that context a Culture is not a generation but peoples with language, architecture and other byproducts that would include history and government. OK
 
Touch,

I will agree that man is man and that for us to believe that we are so different in time as you say, biology is what it is. We agree here. Biological Foundations and the like have not changed much. OK

When you speak of Culture I believe I sense that you are speaking of how we see things and this I would say is not Culture rather evolution of thought. I truly believe in evolution of thought. Is this what you are calling evolved psychology?
No. By “evolved psychology”, I mean the (nearly) constant, lower level mental substrate we are all born with – the impulses toward greed, empathy, selfishness, love, cruelty, creativity, etc., as visceral “raw materials” for our personality, our motivating goals and ethics, etc.

I do think human thought – as a function of culture (or more precisely culture) – does evolve. It “changes over time”, certainly. But I do not attach that to biological evolution. They are both “change over time”, but the mechanisms are quite different – genes and alleles change in populations with variations in heritable traits via DNA, and “evolving thought patterns” change… well, we know enough to say the dynamics are not expressed through DNA, at least.
May I introduce the notion of “Memes” or mind viruses. While thought does change some thoughts are transmitted in time and do not change so that they are what they are then and now. OK.
I’m not a subscriber to notion of memes as Dawkins introduced it as a hypothesis some years ago, the formalized idea of a “mind virus”. And yes, I’m certainly familiar with the history of the term, as well as quite immersed in “Internet culture”, where “meme” has taken hold in a different sense (see Reddit.com, etc.)

That said, I do understand that some ideas are “conceptually portable” and durable across many transmissions, from person to person in ways other ideas are not. Richard Dawkins uses the example in one of his books (“Devil’s Chaplain”?) of teaching a child to make a “swan” in Origami style, folding paper. This “recipe” for making a swan is remarkably durable as a “meme”, or just a transmissible concept. You can teach me, I can teach A, A can teach B, B can teach C, and on and on, and at the end of the chain, we can fairly expect something quite similar to your original origami swan to be reproduced.

Other ideas, say a drawing of a swan, are likely to be barely recognizable at the end of 50 different transmissions from person to person, each person in sequence trying to reproduce the other.

The reason for this is because some concepts are more discrete and “notched” than others. Drawing is given to much more approximation than “Fold this sheet exactly in half”, for example.

Anyway, the point being that ideas and concepts have interesting properties in terms of the durability and “intactfulness” in the context of social transmission and propagation. This obviously has implications for religious ideas.
Next I would ask if you consider that in time there were Polythiesitic Cultures, Athiestic Cultures and Monothiestic Cultures and in that context a Culture is not a generation but peoples with language, architecture and other byproducts that would include history and government. OK
Broadly speaking, I understand “culture” to mean “things people do by social habit, tradition or convention”. That may be overly broad, here, but fits just fine with your understanding, I think. An “atheist culture” would be a “virtual culture”, I submit, as there are not (that I know of) any real societies are that homogeneously atheistic, beyond, of course, all the people in the history of the world who have died, and are “unbelieving” because they are dead, worm food, and conspicuously NOT participating in the “afterlife” so many of us fantasize about.

“Gay culture” would be something similar. “Baptist Culture”, same deal, etc. We can look at societies, and make statements about their language, aggregate culture, etc., values, habits and traditions that span many generations, wide geographical areas and possibly a whole lot of languages.

-TS
 
No. By “evolved psychology”, I mean the (nearly) constant, lower level mental substrate we are all born with – the impulses toward greed, empathy, selfishness, love, cruelty, creativity, etc., as visceral “raw materials” for our personality, our motivating goals and ethics, etc.

I do think human thought – as a function of culture (or more precisely culture) – does evolve. It “changes over time”, certainly. But I do not attach that to biological evolution. They are both “change over time”, but the mechanisms are quite different – genes and alleles change in populations with variations in heritable traits via DNA, and “evolving thought patterns” change… well, we know enough to say the dynamics are not expressed through DNA, at least.

I’m not a subscriber to notion of memes as Dawkins introduced it as a hypothesis some years ago, the formalized idea of a “mind virus”. And yes, I’m certainly familiar with the history of the term, as well as quite immersed in “Internet culture”, where “meme” has taken hold in a different sense (see Reddit.com, etc.)

That said, I do understand that some ideas are “conceptually portable” and durable across many transmissions, from person to person in ways other ideas are not. Richard Dawkins uses the example in one of his books (“Devil’s Chaplain”?) of teaching a child to make a “swan” in Origami style, folding paper. This “recipe” for making a swan is remarkably durable as a “meme”, or just a transmissible concept. You can teach me, I can teach A, A can teach B, B can teach C, and on and on, and at the end of the chain, we can fairly expect something quite similar to your original origami swan to be reproduced.

Other ideas, say a drawing of a swan, are likely to be barely recognizable at the end of 50 different transmissions from person to person, each person in sequence trying to reproduce the other.

The reason for this is because some concepts are more discrete and “notched” than others. Drawing is given to much more approximation than “Fold this sheet exactly in half”, for example.

Anyway, the point being that ideas and concepts have interesting properties in terms of the durability and “intactfulness” in the context of social transmission and propagation. This obviously has implications for religious ideas.

Broadly speaking, I understand “culture” to mean “things people do by social habit, tradition or convention”. That may be overly broad, here, but fits just fine with your understanding, I think. An “atheist culture” would be a “virtual culture”, I submit, as there are not (that I know of) any real societies are that homogeneously atheistic, beyond, of course, all the people in the history of the world who have died, and are “unbelieving” because they are dead, worm food, and conspicuously NOT participating in the “afterlife” so many of us fantasize about.

“Gay culture” would be something similar. “Baptist Culture”, same deal, etc. We can look at societies, and make statements about their language, aggregate culture, etc., values, habits and traditions that span many generations, wide geographical areas and possibly a whole lot of languages.

-TS
Touch,

So we have some disagreement. Budhism and many Eastern forms of thought are Athiestic and formed cultures and spawned Communist China also Athiestic.

In terms of evolution we are not just matter and the evolutionary edge for humanity is that we are able to think self-reflectively, ie think about our thinking, something that animals may do however not to the extent humans do and that is part of our make up.

If you accept biology then you must accept our minds as part of that biology or then you are just a blob of matter…so then our minds are part of that evolutionary continuum.
 
I am really shocked that some people on here say they agree with the article and that science must destroy religion. This is just downright sickening. Do these people even realize how closely their view resonates with that of the Communist USSR? 🤷:eek:
 
Firstly, abortion is far from a modern invention, it’s been around for literally thousands of years, so it can hardly be identified as an indicator of a recent decline in morality.

Also it’s not possible for something which has no senses to be tortured, the foetus has no nervous system so cannot feel anything. Children however do have senses and can suffer, and only a few hundred years ago people generally thought that it was moral to cut a child’s hand off for stealing a loaf of bread (thus condemning the child not only to the agony of the punishment but the even worse suffering of starvation which often followed).

We often tend to reduce the percieved significance of suffering that happened in the past or happens far away. It loses it’s immediacy, but imagine for a moment that there was a place in your town where children, perhaps your own relatives, were caught, tortured and forced to suffer a slow, agonising death.

To me, whatever your views on the moral status of abortion, the deliberate torture and killing of a conscious, self aware person is worse than killing a group of cells with no nervous system which would (probably) if left alone grow to become a conscious, self aware person.
Legalization and widespread abortion has happened over the last century.
Just because the child’s scream is silent, doesn’t mean there is no pain.
Bottom line is that abortion is murder. It is the worst type of murder. This murder is performed by the people that should be protecting the child the most, the parents and the doctors that should be trying to save lives not destroy them.
 
Touch,

So we have some disagreement. Budhism and many Eastern forms of thought are Athiestic and formed cultures and spawned Communist China also Athiestic.
I have no problem with that perspective. Technically, even Taoism is atheistic – no personal deities – but it is a religion that embraces supernatural concepts of immortality, etc. Which, to me, implicates that cultural stream in the “religious” side of the “religion vs. science” divide. At its core, Sam Harris’ point is really a recommendation about epistemology, and being atheistic in the technical sense isn’t really absolution if that culture is embracing religious forms of epistemology. Being superstitious, in other words.

Shintoism and Japanese traditions of ancestor worship suffer from the same problem, to my mind. But even so, I can salute them as being relatively tame forms of indulging superstition compared to the wild eyed fantasies of the Abrahamic religions.

Confucianism I understand to be an ethical framework, not a religion, not supernatural in any way.

If I accede to your point or claim, I just shrug. OK, fair enough. Now what?
In terms of evolution we are not just matter and the evolutionary edge for humanity is that we are able to think self-reflectively, ie think about our thinking, something that animals may do however not to the extent humans do and that is part of our make up.
“Just matter”, or as I hear here often enough “mere matter”… don’t get that? What is the problem with being substantial? Isn’t that more… substantial, than being immaterial/imaginary? I was raised in a devout Christian home, but I’ve never understood this “mere-ification of the flesh”, to twist another popular phrase.

Language, and meta-representational thinking (what you are talking about here – thinking about our thinking) are both “game changers” in terms of developmental adaptations. Self-interaction, and recursion are profoundly enabling, not just cognitively, but algorithmically, as any mathematician or programmer knows. Not to mention fraught with very strange and mind-bending implications (Gödel incompleteness, infinite regress, incoherent but effective set theory calculi, etc.).

But… so? What’s the problem. Instead of neurons firing back and forth in patterns tuned to serving the hunt for prey, now they are sometimes pointed at analyzing the ideas in our head, or one more step removed, thinking about our ability to think about our ability to think. It’s a bit like language faculties, in that a basic faculty unleashes a multitude of cascading combinations; via language, we can use indirection in a meta-representational fashion, and use symbols that point to other symbols, not just concrete referents, or symbols that point to symbols that point to symbols, etc., and on and on. The combinatorics are stupefying, to be sure, but this is the nature of indirection.

So what’s the problem? That is somehow “supernatural”, of necessity to you? Or somehow incompatible with being rendered in matter? I don’t understand the (apparent) objection, here.
If you accept biology then you must accept our minds as part of that biology or then you are just a blob of matter…so then our minds are part of that evolutionary continuum.
“Just a blob of matter”. The “mere-ification of the flesh”, again. What’s the matter with matter? Why is being substantial, made of matter, somehow a problem, here? I’m at a loss as to why you would use “just” in that sentence. “Just”, as opposed to… what? For myself, I’m happy to be “just” matter. Matter seems quite an adequate form of existence for me to get by… Why not you?

-TS
 
I have no problem with that perspective. Technically, even Taoism is atheistic – no personal deities – but it is a religion that embraces supernatural concepts of immortality, etc. Which, to me, implicates that cultural stream in the “religious” side of the “religion vs. science” divide. At its core, Sam Harris’ point is really a recommendation about epistemology, and being atheistic in the technical sense isn’t really absolution if that culture is embracing religious forms of epistemology. Being superstitious, in other words.

Shintoism and Japanese traditions of ancestor worship suffer from the same problem, to my mind. But even so, I can salute them as being relatively tame forms of indulging superstition compared to the wild eyed fantasies of the Abrahamic religions.

Confucianism I understand to be an ethical framework, not a religion, not supernatural in any way.

If I accede to your point or claim, I just shrug. OK, fair enough. Now what?

“Just matter”, or as I hear here often enough “mere matter”… don’t get that? What is the problem with being substantial? Isn’t that more… substantial, than being immaterial/imaginary? I was raised in a devout Christian home, but I’ve never understood this “mere-ification of the flesh”, to twist another popular phrase.

Language, and meta-representational thinking (what you are talking about here – thinking about our thinking) are both “game changers” in terms of developmental adaptations. Self-interaction, and recursion are profoundly enabling, not just cognitively, but algorithmically, as any mathematician or programmer knows. Not to mention fraught with very strange and mind-bending implications (Gödel incompleteness, infinite regress, incoherent but effective set theory calculi, etc.).

But… so? What’s the problem. Instead of neurons firing back and forth in patterns tuned to serving the hunt for prey, now they are sometimes pointed at analyzing the ideas in our head, or one more step removed, thinking about our ability to think about our ability to think. It’s a bit like language faculties, in that a basic faculty unleashes a multitude of cascading combinations; via language, we can use indirection in a meta-representational fashion, and use symbols that point to other symbols, not just concrete referents, or symbols that point to symbols that point to symbols, etc., and on and on. The combinatorics are stupefying, to be sure, but this is the nature of indirection.

So what’s the problem? That is somehow “supernatural”, of necessity to you? Or somehow incompatible with being rendered in matter? I don’t understand the (apparent) objection, here.

“Just a blob of matter”. The “mere-ification of the flesh”, again. What’s the matter with matter? Why is being substantial, made of matter, somehow a problem, here? I’m at a loss as to why you would use “just” in that sentence. “Just”, as opposed to… what? For myself, I’m happy to be “just” matter. Matter seems quite an adequate form of existence for me to get by… Why not you?

-TS
Touch,

We appear to be at odds. Just matter without a mind could not reflect and type as you did. I made no mention of supernatural or superstition. If I did point it out for me.
 
Absolutely. Never mind the equivocation on “evil” that is problematic here. Might doesn’t make right, and even “evil creatures”, if they are creatures – that is to say, creatures created by God and according to his design – are not deserving of the treatment you imagine God would have visited on his enemies, or the enemies of “his chosen people” (which is another problematic aspect of the Abrahamic God imagination).

Never mind the major problem of the total absence of this God you speak of: why should anyone pay heed to what YHWH says is “good”? He’s not human, if he “is”, at all. His interests are his own, not human interests. I fully understand the coercive aspects of power; humans must confront the “terrible tyrant” aspect of a being they imagine to be all powerful. If God can smite me with a snap of his non-existent fingers, I’d better obey out of fear and capitulation to coercive power. My desire to live is stronger than my urge to resist this tyrant, so I have to consider cowering in fear of this monster who makes demands of me, just because he can kill me, or do with me as he wishes.

But this isn’t a human sense of “god”. This is just totalitarian despotism.

Maybe I’ve missed something, though. Why do you accept God’s definition of “good”, apart from his (perceived) control over your life and your death?

If he loved us, and had our interests in mind, he wouldn’t behave the way he does. Not nearly. A small child, and having six kids I can tell you a small child can be a cruel being, is a more noble and loving god than YHWH. YHWH is grotesquely barbaric compared to humans, and humans ain’t all that great in many respects.

He’s got a funny way of showing it. I’m struck by how Orwellian that kind of appeal is, how apropos that would be in talking about other despots, like Stalin, or “Dear Leader” Kim from North Korea. They too wanted their subjects to turn away from evil and embrace what they proclaimed as “the good”, and under pain of death and all manner of suffering.

Can’t you just feel the love. Turn or burn, man! Love ya, though. wink

Well, Jesus said the greatest command was to love YHWH with all your heart mind and strength. That’s positively nightmarish right there, as execrable a recommendation for the “highest priority” as I could think of. You know, if you think like that, it’s possible you and your “Joshua’s army” might feel entitled to go engage in mass genocide, right down to running infants through with the sword, and even killing all the cattle, just to make an “exclamation point” of fidelity to this cruel God.

It’s great that Jesus had the sense to embrace an idea that transcended his Judaism in the Golden Rule. But it’s a signal moral failure, a kind of “flagrant display of evil”, that he would place fealty to YHWH above this. Imagine examine a sycophant of Stalin, who proclaimed that the Most Important Thing of All™, no matter what, is to love, revere, and obey Josef Stalin. Would that be a credit to that man, in your view?

-TS
Wow…I Love God not because I’m afraid of going to hell, but because He is a Good and Loving God. Have you ever read the entire old and new testaments and the catechism? If you want to learn about God these would be good sources.

Yes, Jesus said to Love you God will all your heart mind and soul and He also said that the second and equal commandment is to Love your neighbor and your enemy. We show God that we Love Him when we Love our neighbor and our enemies. We are like God when we Love all people. We are like God when we hate evil and sin.

If you think that God is evil then please explain to me why He is keeping you alive?
 
I am really shocked that some people on here say they agree with the article and that science must destroy religion. This is just downright sickening. Do these people even realize how closely their view resonates with that of the Communist USSR? 🤷:eek:
If you read or listen to Sam Harris, it will be clear that while Sam does advocate for the destruction of religion, he does not support anything like what you are (apparently) insinuating with the USSR reference. Sam wants religion put behind us, but truly put behind us in the way that endures and is just: as the collective choice, freely chosen by the overwhelming majority of humans.

Religion can’t be persecuted away. Indeed, one of the most tragic blunders in political history I think was the persecution of the Christian cultists in the first couple hundred years after Jesus’ death in the Roman Empire. The “martyr effect” is a power fuel for the fire of religious zeal and superstition.

Sam understands this, better than I do. Daniel Dennett makes this point even more forcefully, but the bottom line is not a matter of eloquence, it’s just the realization that religion dies well and stays dead when it is abandoned freely, and not missed. Any totalitarian action is likely to invigorate religion rather than kill it. It will metastasize, rather than shrivel up and die, under persecution.

And, it hardly needs to be said, for Sam or myself, that as bad as religion is, freedom of conscious and political liberty are even more important. Much better to tolerate religion and support personal freedoms than to forego political liberties in pursuit of anything totalitarian or oppressive, whether that be persecuting religion, persecuting atheism, or anything else.

Harris’ “call to arms” is a rhetorical one, and argues that the science-embracing world and secular society is largely in denial about both the inherent enmity between science and religion, and the risks religious superstition pose to humanity. Getting rid of religion will not usher in some utopian world, and a dangerous world full of terrifying risks will remain even if and when mankind abandons religious superstition, but even so, getting rid of the gratuitous risks religion brings to the equation is a net benefit for man, even if there is still a long, long way to go even if that were to happen.

In any case, you won’t find much sympathy for totalitarianism in ideas of Harris or the other members of the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse. Totalitarianism and despotism, as you’d find in the case of the USSR, are part and parcel of what these guys are assailing, and working to defeat. God is a totalitarian despot, per Sam Harris, and that’s a major problem, because such despotism is contrary to the interests of mankind, counter to the prospects of human flourishing, which is the ideal Sam Harris is increasingly proclaiming.

If getting rid of religion requires empowering totalitarian regimes of oppressive despots, better to get by as best we can with religion. That kind of “cure” is much worse than the “disease”. The path to destroying religion is just patient, persistent, diligent allegiance to the pursuit of knowledge, and deference to the evidence and facts we might apprehend about the world around us and how it works. This way, it is hoped, people will be persuaded, and will abandon religion peacefully, of their own accord, and in such a way that religion really does die, and become a barbaric artifact of our history.

We aren’t nearly over the scourge of slavery, but we have made enormous progress in the past few centuries, and hope that the anti-human nature of slavery will at some point become a historical issue for mankind, rather than a “it’s a lot better than it was” case like it is presently. Religion will hopefully follow in the path of our abandoning slavery.

You can’t beat it out of people. They must choose the better, freely, in order for the progress to be real and enduring.

-TS
 
Touch,

We appear to be at odds. Just matter without a mind could not reflect and type as you did. I made no mention of supernatural or superstition. If I did point it out for me.
I can point it out just by noting that you distinguish between “matter” and “mind”. Mind is matter, given all the evidence we have available to us. The only objections to mind being matter are superstitions, so far as I’m aware. Are you looking at evidence I’m not aware of, or are you appealing to your intuitions as the basis for thinking of mind as non-matter, or separate-from-matter?

-TS
 
Jesus and God are the same Divinity no? :confused:

Isn’t that a fundamental of the Trinity?

One God, three persons or expressions of this God; the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

So what God did, Jesus did.

Wasn’t there a heresy put down, where a group tried to say that the Jesus of the NT was a different person to the God of the OT?

I don’t think many would doubt God accepting a sacrifice of a man’s daughter, to keep a promise in war, or the putting to the sword of a whole tribe, then being sent back to finish the job when some were spared, or stoning a man to death for collecting wood on a Sunday, were morally questionable at the very least.

The God who commanded this, and Jesus, are one and the same.

Sarah x 🙂
The Holy Trinity is three persons in One God. There is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. However, yes, whatever God the Father Loves, Jesus Loves and the Holy Spirit Loves. The Old Testament was the teaching of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. It was the teaching of Justice. It was the teaching of things that God Loves and things that God hates. God Loves man, but God hates evil and sin. So when people were being destroyed, it was not because God hates people, but because God hates evil and sin. How else would God teach us how much He hates evil and sin? He already tried just using words in the garden of eden, but we all know how that went.

So once Jesus came into this world, things changed. Jesus paid for our sins with His suffering and death on the cross. His suffering and death on the cross was not for His own sins but for the sins of all people that believe in Him. Do you know the story of Jesus? Do you think His Life is an example of Good or evil?
 
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