Science must destroy religion

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That depends whether or not they believe in free will. If they don’t they have a carte blanche. Even if they do they can convenently decide for themselves what is right and wrong…

Let’s have an example.
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                                                  1. What is the "solid starting point"?
  1. Which “dictats” do you reject and on what rational basis?
    That’s hardly surprising given that they were not born into an amoral environment…
Did you work out all your moral values and principles entirely by yourself from scratch?

I’m not sure it would be safe to be your neighbour if you did! 😉
I read a story about a man who had come into a great deal of inheritance money in England. He built a rather large home but did not want to alienate his neighbors. He didn’t want them to think he thought of them as beneath him. So, he sent invitations to all of his neighbors to come to his home and have dinner with him on a certain day, and let them know there would be no pomp. It would be a simple dinner with no special dress required.

As his guests arrived, he greeted them personally at the door and thanked them for coming. One man felt the need to say the following: “Sir. I thank you for your invitation and hospitality but I feel compelled to tell you that I subscribe to no ethical or moral code.” To which the host replied: “I see. Then I think it would be reasonable to examine your person thoroughly right before leaving my home to make certain no silverware or other valuables are leaving with you.” The man did not object and came inside.

Peace,
Ed
 
*That depends whether or not they believe in free will. If they don’t they have a carte blanche. Even if they do they can convenently decide for themselves what is right and wrong…
A delightful story, Ed.

I wonder why it took place in England… Being half-Irish I’m obviously biased. 😉
 
That depends whether or not they believe in free will. If they don’t they have a carte blanche.
Here I would tend to disagree, I see no reason why you can believe that free will is restricted or even absent altogether and yet still establish for yourself a moral code and adhere to it successfully. There seems to be no particular reason why a code from such a person would necessarily be inferior either. But I’m more than willing to be corrected if you have an explanation.
Even if they do they can convenently decide for themselves what is right and wrong…
As can and indeed do many people who have a strong religious views. As we have previously noted in this conversation many catholics decide for themselves what is right and wrong, often in direct contradiction to views of the church of which they are members.
Let’s have an example.
We have discussed this previously and I provided examples back then as well. I guess you are asking for examples of first principles, so here are a couple - “suffering is bad” and “happiness is good”. Suffering and happiness are words which refer to concepts of experience which are respectively negative and positive. As such the above statements are axiomatic. Incidentally please note that suffering refers to much more than just pain just as happiness refers to much more than just pleasure. So this is not a simplistic “pleasure / pain” morality.
  1. What is the “solid starting point”?
Axiomatic ones are pretty solid.
  1. Which “dictats” do you reject and on what rational basis?
“homosexuality is EVIL” because there is no rational reason that says why “homosexuality is EVIL”. Others include things like “women should be subordinate to men” and “it is not wrong to kill an unbeliever”.
That’s hardly surprising given that they were not born into an amoral environment…
Indeed, exactly. However, many of them were raised in an areligious environment. So it makes my point rather nicely.
Did you work out all your moral values and principles entirely by yourself from scratch?
I’m not sure it would be safe to be your neighbour if you did! 😉
Nope, no man is an island. So it is entirely impossible to work out all your moral values and principles independently. The only way to do so would be to be raised in an environment with absolutely no other living things (aside from possibly plants) present.
 
cranster

**I’m surprised no one has brought up sam harris’s latest attack on religion in his paper titled “science must destroy religion”. I’m assuming the reason its not being discussed is that its a banned topic here. If it is does anyone know where Catholics are discussing it? So far i’m seeing it largely unchallenged on the internet and wondering why Catholics are ignoring it. **

I read the article with some amazement. Science must destroy religion? But why? The instruments of destruction that the world fears most today were not invented by the Vatican. They were built by nuclear physicists with great assurance that that were bad enough to destroy anything and everyone. So why is Harris not talking about destroying science instead of religion? 😃
 
So why is Harris not talking about destroying science instead of religion? 😃
I tried to interpret this with many meanings of science and I’m not able to translate “destroying science” into something that is both actionable and sensible. Most of the definitions I find for science are centered on a set of activities. (Some of the definitions I found are below). The definition not directly related to the activities is the one that came from the words etymological roots, knowledge. I suppose some one could destroy knowledge through taking actions against educational systems and so on.

What motivations would Harris have for doing that?
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Dictionary:
  • The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
  • Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.
  • Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.
  • Methodological activity, discipline, or study: I’ve got packing a suitcase down to a science.
  • An activity that appears to require study and method: the science of purchasing.
  • Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.
  • Science Christian Science.
 
What motivations would Harris have for doing that?
Building up sensation and publicity in order to sell more books, getting more publishing deals, more speaking engagement deals. His research area does not really offer disease treatment nor understanding of disease pathology so definitely no commercial funding. Therefore, I supposed publishing deals offer him financial compensation he can’t get from commercial funding.
 
And continuing with DeepBlueSea’s reference to genetic profiling and genetic discrimination (to which some unknowledgeable reply said “potentially”) : This isn’t “potentially” it is already a reality. Dr. Lejeune labels it “chromosomal racism”. In the US, the abortion rate of those children receiving a prenatal diagnosis of Down syndrome is 92% .
Thanks for sharing the links. It’s comforting to know someone shares my sentiments of the inhumane side of science that destroy lives.

Actually when I raised the issue of genetic profiling and discrimination, I was thinking more of its implication on health insurance premium. Not many people seem to be aware of the pervasiveness of price discrimination of health insurance that not only increases financial burden on the insured unduly, it downright rejects the sickly their access to medical treatment.

When someone responded “potentially” to a reality, I realized I was talking to someone who does not seem to care to educate herself about social-economic problems happening around the world. I’m quite shocked as to how anyone can live like that without having the broader understanding of the issues that affect us and our future generations. To think that I am living on the same planet as the people with such mentality sends shivers down my spine.

The most alarming thing is that there are people who believe that there is such a thing as fundamental humanistic sense of goodness without God as its endpoint. People who have such blind faith on humanism alone seem to be just people lacking awareness of the extent of evilness in this world, either because they have not experienced the full extent of it or they make no effort to explain why science rears its ugly head in the first place. Their morality reference seems to be confined within the sphere where they live, which appears to be lacking comprehensiveness and totality. I mean, do they even care that people living outside their sphere are under threat? If not, why then mislead others to think that it is morally possible to live without reference to God.

Science has always been my bread and butter. God is the ultimate goal I serve. History has shown that science does not offer the kind of hope and life that God gives freely to the humanity. Not even close. It is blind faith to think that we can depend on science without God. People who think like that do not know the trap they are walking into. I just hope that they do not drag the rest along to the ruin of all.
 
Actually when I raised the issue of genetic profiling and discrimination, I was thinking more of its implication on health insurance premium. Not many people seem to be aware of the pervasiveness of price discrimination of health insurance that not only increases financial burden on the insured unduly, it downright rejects the sickly their access to medical treatment.
The Affordable Health Act in the USA (among other things) closed some loop holes for allowing companies to do that. Though the act was challenged and the USA Supreme Court reviewed it. We’ll find out if they will allow it this Thursday. If key parts are struct down then insurance providers can continue to deny medical coverage for “pre-existing conditions” (a term I don’t completely understand, since even some infants have been denied treatment because their ailment has been classified as “pre-existing”).
 
Ok, this sounds interesting. Please demonstrate the logic.
Firstly morality deals with what is right and wrong. I will begin with the definition of morality from a relatively neutral source, Wikipedia.

Morality (from the Latin moralitas “manner, character, proper behavior”) is the differentiation of intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are good (or right) and those that are bad (or wrong). A moral code is a system of morality (according to a particular philosophy, religion, culture, etc.) and a moral is any one practice or teaching within a moral code. The adjective moral is synonymous with “good” or “right.” Immorality is the active opposition to morality (i.e. good or right), while amorality is variously defined as an unawareness of, indifference toward, or disbelief in any set of moral standards or principles.[1][2][3][4] An example of a moral code is the Golden Rule which states that, “One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.”[5]

Can it be agreed that this is the definition of morality?
 
Sorry friend, morality without an agreement between two or more can’t exist. You can’t be moral unless you agree to do something and do as agreed, and you can’t be immoral unless you do other than what you agreed to do.
Please see above for the definition of morality. The concepts of good and bad are distinct from agreements or accords between individuals.
 
Firstly morality deals with what is right and wrong. I will begin with the definition of morality from a relatively neutral source, Wikipedia.

Morality (from the Latin moralitas “manner, character, proper behavior”) is the differentiation of intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are good (or right) and those that are bad (or wrong). A moral code is a system of morality (according to a particular philosophy, religion, culture, etc.) and a moral is any one practice or teaching within a moral code. The adjective moral is synonymous with “good” or “right.” Immorality is the active opposition to morality (i.e. good or right), while amorality is variously defined as an unawareness of, indifference toward, or disbelief in any set of moral standards or principles.[1][2][3][4] An example of a moral code is the Golden Rule which states that, “One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.”[5]

Can it be agreed that this is the definition of morality?
Seems reasonable. Lets go with it.
 
Morality without a Creator could not, logically, exist.
Sorry friend, morality without an agreement between two or more can’t exist. You can’t be moral unless you agree to do something and do as agreed, and you can’t be immoral unless you do other than what you agreed to do.
[Rms5:12 Wherefore, as BY ONE MAN SIN ENTERED INTO THE WORLD, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For UNTIL THE LAW sin was in the world: but SIN IS NOT IMPUTED WHEN THERE IS NO LAW.] There was no right or wrong until God gave Adam the law not to eat of a certain tree. Even in a fallen world there was no right or wrong until
 
Seems reasonable. Lets go with it.
Great, thanks.

First we need to agree on a couple of other things.
  1. When speaking of being moral, in general, being good or bad, people are generally agreed, with some exceptions to be sure, that they are talking about the same types of behavior.
i.e. Someone who randomly walks up to a person and kicks them hard in the shin would be bad (immoral) behavior and someone who helps the person who has been kicked find a seat and takes care of their wound would be good (morally right) behavior.

and
  1. the concepts of morality (god and bad) (right or wrong) exist exclusively in “the mind.”
Would you agree with these propositions?
 
cranster

**I’m surprised no one has brought up sam harris’s latest attack on religion in his paper titled “science must destroy religion”. I’m assuming the reason its not being discussed is that its a banned topic here. If it is does anyone know where Catholics are discussing it? So far i’m seeing it largely unchallenged on the internet and wondering why Catholics are ignoring it. **

I read the article with some amazement. Science must destroy religion? But why? The instruments of destruction that the world fears most today were not invented by the Vatican. They were built by nuclear physicists with great assurance that that were bad enough to destroy anything and everyone. So why is Harris not talking about destroying science instead of religion? 😃
His thesis is that there is an objective morality which can be determined scientifically. He points out in other presentations that there is such a thing as an expert body of knowledge, and that one throws out certain “facts” which are held by non-experts. He objects to moral relativism, and says that the closest thing we have to expertise on morality comes from religion. He also points out that as various religious groups disagree, this expertise is not objective. He takes his argument beyond that to point out where individual religious systems have failed. Some Islamic practices are his favorite examples, though he includes the Christian opposition to marriage equality as another example. He sees that the tolerance of these objective immoral practices as one of the failings of our modern culture. From there, he points out that the technology is progressing to where we will, in his opinion, be able to find the chemical, structural and genetic components of positive states of mind, like happiness or empathy. Once all of this is codified, then we will be able to have an objective standard of morality derived from the physical sciences.

This article, is just a continuation of that same line of thinking.
 
Please see above for the definition of morality. The concepts of good and bad are distinct from agreements or accords between individuals.
This is the origin of moral
Moral: OED
Used to render L. Moralia pl. as the title of St. Gregory the Great’s work on the moral exposition of the Book of Job, and (later) as the collective title given to Plutarch’s writings other than the ‘Lives’, to the ethical writings of Seneca,

If you want to talk moral and what it is, technically it is a Catholic doctrine, see St. Gregory the Great’s work. The word moral is not in scripture, unless you have a modern use of English bible in which case is subject to change do to the future changes in the use of the English language.

And what is it that one would teach another a set of morals for? Could it be to know what is agreed in a society, or a group of people in behaviors and treatments towards each other? You can’t be a moral agent one way or the other with out agreement.

There was no iniquity, nor sin, nor transgression, unless first there was an agreement:

Gen:2:16: And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
 
To be a bit more blunt, you are espousing the same ‘we’re all one and all religions share certain similarities,’ which apparently spring from nothing, then humanity has two choices: drop all religions and belief systems and let science rule or, at least, just dump all religions and belief systems on the trash heap of history.
It seems that you might profitably look again at what I’m espousing.

We aren’t all one in the sense you might rail against, whatever that is. I don’t know. So I wonder, instead, are you familiar with the idea that Man, that meaning all human beings, of every discription, from the alleged A&E forward, was, is, and will be made in the image and likeness of God? Is God many? Well, at least three, eh? 🙂 S while we are not “one” in some Hippy sense of that word, you might concede that we are all made in His One image and likeness?

And all religions are faiths, and in that are they not similar? They are beliefs, as distinct from knowledge? Even though one might have “knowledge” of their faith as a paradigm? They are all, each and every one a faith or a belief system and in that they are equal. Sorry, including our faith.

Science has as its province the surface of things and the dynamics thereof, and religion has as its province the interior of theings, or of meaning. To propose that we ought, or that I think we ought to “dump” one or the other is a bit dramatic, wouldn’t you say? But while a perfrectly useful ethical and moral system can be had without religion, nonetheless religions are, despite a lot of conflict and unclarity, a feild of endeavor wherin some can usefully grow. And some not so much.

But religions do point to the idea of meaning and Source. In that, as to the degree and kind of explanation they offer that is commensurate with Reality, they are useful. It is the uncommensurate parts, the parts of great conflict, where clarity, critical thinking, and a host of other disciplines can be applied. As Isaid elswhere, most folks stop at the story telling level of religion, whatever theirs is, and do not penetrate it much further, that penetration being the actuall usefulness of having a faith. Soo until something better and more universal is recognized, we have faith and its teleoplogy.
What’s left? Science. The Technocracy. The rulers will be guided only by science and the scientific dictatorship will guide us to what? More nothing. Because even if they come up with new flavors for snack foods, the fundamental man will not change.
that’s right, but what is the funda-mental “man?” And as it is, the rulers are guided by money, wouln’t you think? In this comming election billins will be wasted to convince wage slaves that one or another named opposame is a better obfuscator of the fact that our wallets are being vacuumed empty so that obscenely rich folks can have more. The point of that might be then that we peeons will kill each other for what;s left and take some pressure off the Earth so a few can survive? I don’t know. Seems like it some times.
And you have a bias: I do not believe that Catholicism should be the global religion by force. Unless you believe that power and influence are more important than the truth. I’ve witnessed my faith to other people and some listened and some didn’t and some had some very negative and not nice things to say about religion in general.
Why would they? It might work for you in an environment of consensus, but in the aggregate religions as contentious parties are endangering us all, as are political parties. And dictators. And corporations. Don’t feel special on thier account.

So, nothing is going to change.

Peace,
Ed Nothing can’t change. It isn’t there, Or “nothing” it is the appearance of ALLness to the human intellect. But you and I can change relative to our experience of the Reality that underlies the appearance even of religion.
 
I read a story about a man who had come into a great deal of inheritance money in England. He built a rather large home but did not want to alienate his neighbors. He didn’t want them to think he thought of them as beneath him. So, he sent invitations to all of his neighbors to come to his home and have dinner with him on a certain day, and let them know there would be no pomp. It would be a simple dinner with no special dress required.

As his guests arrived, he greeted them personally at the door and thanked them for coming. One man felt the need to say the following: “Sir. I thank you for your invitation and hospitality but I feel compelled to tell you that I subscribe to no ethical or moral code.” To which the host replied: “I see. Then I think it would be reasonable to examine your person thoroughly right before leaving my home to make certain no silverware or other valuables are leaving with you.” The man did not object and came inside.

Peace,
Ed
What compelled the guest to make such a revelation? Had he not, he might have gotten away with something. Was the guest being self-contradictory by givng such notice? Or did he just like being searched?
 
The same reason that’s driving him to destroy religion. Pure emotion based on a faulty sense of morality.
In think maybe what Harris actually wants to destroy is contradiction and the disagreement between religons that causes it, and therefore turmoil on the world stage. I just think he ought as well include the religion of money that makes profit its God. Only thing is, at least those religionists are consitent!
 
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