Science of probability

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If specific prophecies were fulfilled by the Messiah does the science of probability consider this “Proof” there is a God?

Anyone can make predictions— that is easy. Having them fulfilled is another story. The more statements you make about the future and the greater the detail, the better the chances are that you will be proven wrong.
For example, how difficult do you think it would be to indicate the precise kind of death that a new, unknown religious leader would experience a thousand years from Today? Could you describe and predict a new method of execution not currently known—one that won’t even be invented for hundreds of years? Thats what David did in 1000 B.C. when he wrote
Psalms 22 through the holy spirit.
Further, if you did think up 50 specific prophecies about some man in the future you will never meet, how difficult do you think it would be for that man to fulfill all 50 of your predictions? How hard would it be for him if 25 of your predictions were about what other people would do to him and were completely beyond his control?
It might be possible to arrange one or two of these prophecies, but it would be virtually impossible for any man to arrange and fulfill all these predictions in advance. If it can be proved that such prophecies were predicted of the messiah hundreds of years in advance, and one man fufilled all of them, then that man would logically have to be the Messiah.
God gave a great number of prophecies (more than 400) about the Messiah for at least two reasons. First, it would make identifying the Messiah obvious. And second, it would make an imposter’s task impossible.
Now let us ask an intriguing question. If we assume some 456 prophecies are fulfilled in one person, what does the science of probability say about this? In brief, it says, if accurate predictions were made about a future Messiah and fulfilled years later by one person, this is reasonable proof that there is a God.
Here is why. The science of probability attempts to determine the chance that a given event will occur. Professor Emeritus of science at Westmont College, PeterStoner, has calculated the probability of one man fulfilling some of the major prophecies made concerning the Messiah. The estimates were worked out by 12 different classes of 600 college students.
The students carefully weighed all the factors, discussed each prophecy at length, and examined the various circumstances which might indicate that men had conspired together to fulfill a particular prophecy. They made their estimates conservative enough so that there was finally, unaimous agreement even among the skeptical students.
But then Professor Stoner took their estimates and made them even more conservative. He also encouraged other skeptics or scientists to make their own estimates to see if his figures for reveiw to a Committee of the American Scientific Affiliation. Upon examination, they verified that his calculations were dependable and accurate in regard to scientific material presented.
After examining eight different prophecies, Professor Stoner and his students conservatively estimate that the chance of one man fulfilling all eight prophecies was one in 10/17.(10 to the power of 17) or , ( 0.588)
To show how large the number 10/17 is ( a figure with 17 zeros) Stoner gave this illustration. Imagine covering the entire state of texas with silver dollars to a level of two feet deep. The total number of silver dollars needed to cover the whole state would be
10/17. Now, choose just one of those silver dollars, mark it , and drop it from an airoplane. then throughly stir all the silver dollars all over the state.
When that has been done, blinfold a man, then tell him he can travel wherever he wishes in the state of texas.But sometime he must stop, reach down into two feet of silver dollars, and try to pull up that one specific silver dollar that has been marked.
Now, the chance of his finding that one silver dollar in the state of texas would be the chance the prophets had for eight prophecies coming true in any one man in the future.
Professor Stoner concluded: “The fulfillment of these eight prophecies alone proves that God inspired the writing of those prophecies to a definiteness which lacks only one chance in 10/17 of being absolute”. Another way of saying this that any person who minimizes or ignores the significance of the biblical identifying signs concerning the Messiah would be foolish.
But of course, there are many more than eight prophecies. In another calculation used 48 propheceis ( even though he could of used 456) and arrived at the extremely conservation estimate that the probability of 48 prophecies being fulfilled by one person is 10/157. (0.064)
And how big is 10/157? In 10/157 years, an ant could actually move all the atoms in 600,000 trillion, trillion,trillion trillion of our universes a distance of 200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 miles. He could do this moving one atom at a time, moving each atom a distance of 30 billion light years, and traveling only at the speed of one inch 15 billion years!/6 .
This incredibly large number illustrates why it is impossible for anyone to have fulfilled all the messianic prophecies by chance. In fact , a leading authority on probability theory, Emile borel, states in his book Probabilities and life, that once we go past one chance in 10/50, the probabilities are so small its impossible to think they will ever occur.
What this means is, it is impossible for these 48 prophecies to be fulfilled apart from the one whom appointed it God.
 
If specific prophecies were fulfilled by the Messiah does the science of probability consider this “Proof” there is a God?

Anyone can make predictions— that is easy. Having them fulfilled is another story. The more statements you make about the future and the greater the detail, the better the chances are that you will be proven wrong.
Indeed, if one could establish:
  1. that the prophecies were uttered as quoted and
  2. were uttered at the time they were alleged to happen, and
  3. the prophecies were fulfilled as quoted and
  4. were fulfilled at the time they were alleged to have fulfilled,
then: it would be a very strong evidence for something almost unexplainably improbable.

The problem with your analysis is simple: both the existence of the prophecies and the “fulfillment” of the prophecies are in question.

There is no objective evidence that the prophecies occurred at all, there is no objective evidence that they are quoted correctly, and there in no objective evidence that the prophecies were fulfilled. The only available evidence is an ancient book - in other words: hearsay evidence.

How much credence should one give to hearsay evidence in general and in particular? That is a different question.
 
Ateista is right to an extent, this deals with the issue of faith mostly, there is objective evidence in regards to the dating of the OT and NT scriptures, but the issues on the ascension of Jesus and etc. cannot be scientifically proven.

I’m still a bit iffy on his views on ‘objective evidence’ - we don’t have objective evidence that buddha existed nor that caesar existed, for all we known the history books could have been lying, all those weapons and big buildings were probably for someone else and someone came along and decided to make a fable on caesar.

Ultimately I can carry this one for any little or big thing in history which even atheists accept as true but they can’t prove with “objective” evidence. Perhaps Plato and his books were also hearsay. Your line of reasoning is too closed, it seems.

"The only available evidence is an ancient book - in other words: hearsay evidence. "

Infact the Bible has more ‘personal testimonies’ and ‘witnesses’ than say books written by Plato, Aristotle, or historical documents on Caesar, therefore by your line of reasoning, we must dismiss everything else too.

I’m not suggesting anything, I’m only using your logic.

What about some famous historian or philosopher who is only lived on by books attributed to him and no record of his burial or any evidence of him actually existing, rather than the book itself?

I guess we can’t accept it!

Whether atheists like to admit it or not, they also have faith, though it’s not in the religious sense of God, but the belief in historical things without “objective evidence” though they demand “objective evidence” from others. There is no time to cherry pick, use only objective evidence please to accept something or not.
 
If specific prophecies were fulfilled by the Messiah does the science of probability consider this “Proof” there is a God? …
What this means is, it is impossible for these 48 prophecies to be fulfilled apart from the one whom appointed it God.
No, it doesn’t. It means the Messiah is some sort of supernatural being with supernatural powers.
 
Ateista is right to an extent, this deals with the issue of faith mostly, there is objective evidence in regards to the dating of the OT and NT scriptures, but the issues on the ascension of Jesus and etc. cannot be scientifically proven.
I did not say anything specific. I only said that the value of a hearsay testimony is a different matter.
I’m still a bit iffy on his views on ‘objective evidence’ - we don’t have objective evidence that buddha existed nor that caesar existed, for all we known the history books could have been lying, all those weapons and big buildings were probably for someone else and someone came along and decided to make a fable on caesar.
Possible, not probable. So what?
Ultimately I can carry this one for any little or big thing in history which even atheists accept as true but they can’t prove with “objective” evidence. Perhaps Plato and his books were also hearsay. Your line of reasoning is too closed, it seems.
Since I did not offer any reasoning, your criticism is a bit premature. 🙂
"The only available evidence is an ancient book - in other words: hearsay evidence. "

Infact the Bible has more ‘personal testimonies’ and ‘witnesses’ than say books written by Plato, Aristotle, or historical documents on Caesar, therefore by your line of reasoning, we must dismiss everything else too.
Where are those personal testimonies? Who are the witnesses? Where are the testimonials recorded? Be specific, if possible.
I’m not suggesting anything, I’m only using your logic.

What about some famous historian or philosopher who is only lived on by books attributed to him and no record of his burial or any evidence of him actually existing, rather than the book itself?

I guess we can’t accept it!
Since I did not offer any reasoning yet…
Whether atheists like to admit it or not, they also have faith, though it’s not in the religious sense of God, but the belief in historical things without “objective evidence” though they demand “objective evidence” from others. There is no time to cherry pick, use only objective evidence please to accept something or not.
Of course atheists accept a lot of things without actual, physical evidence.

Now let me actually offer some reasoning, so you can criticize if you want to.

The acceptability of hearsay testimonies depends on a lot of things. First, it depends on the reliability of the witnesses. Second, it depends on the length of the “witness-chain”, on the number of people who only heard it from someone, who also heard it from somone else… the longer the chain, the less reliable the testimony. I don’t say that the people intentionally distorted the events - though that is not unheard of - but telling and re-telling a story is bound to distort it.

Then there is the “credibility” factor, though “credibility” is highly subjective. The less credible the story is, we demand more witnesses, more reliable witnesses, etc…

Next comes the seriousness of the claims. It is no wonder that in criminal cases the required level of evidence is much higher than in civil lawsuits. The requirement of “reasonable doubt” is much higher than the “preponderance of evidence”.

Generally speaking there are lots of factors which determine the value of hearsay evidence. I only touched on a few. And the subjectivity cannot be “weeded out”.

Now, specifically, the case in question. How reliable is the Bible? What are the actual, historical events recorded? How are they reported by other, independent witnesses? How about the not-so probable events? Miracles, etc? How about the errors in the Bible? All these must be weighed and taken into consideration.

My personal opinion: the Bible is an interesting collection of ancient writings, some historical, some mythical. They were written by simple, superstitious people, whose knowledge of nature was very primitive.

The books were selected by a panel of people, who included those which they liked, and rejected those which they did not like. Arguably the Bible is the most edited, most modified book of all times. It has been translated, many times. There are serious scientific errors in it. There are lots of nonsensical events described in it.

I find its credibility exactly on par with all the other mythologies, namely zero.

Now you can criticize. 🙂
 
Indeed, if one could establish:
  1. that the prophecies were uttered as quoted and
  2. were uttered at the time they were alleged to happen, and
  3. the prophecies were fulfilled as quoted and
  4. were fulfilled at the time they were alleged to have fulfilled,
then: it would be a very strong evidence for something almost unexplainably improbable.

The problem with your analysis is simple: both the existence of the prophecies and the “fulfillment” of the prophecies are in question.

There is no objective evidence that the prophecies occurred at all, there is no objective evidence that they are quoted correctly, and there in no objective evidence that the prophecies were fulfilled. The only available evidence is an ancient book - in other words: hearsay evidence.

How much credence should one give to hearsay evidence in general and in particular? That is a different question.
Messianic Prophecies
This is a chart of the messianic prophecies from Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22. The promise, prophecy, and fulfillment for each prophecy are shown on this chart.

Isaiah was written 700-750 years prior to the birth of Christ. Psalms was written about 1020 years prior to Jesus’ birth. Since Jesus died in A.D. 30 or 33, the prophecies concerning his death were between 800 and 1050 years old when they were fulfilled.

Messianic Prophecies from Isaiah 53
Promise Prophecy Fulfillment
Who has believed our report? Isaiah 53:1 John 12:37-38, Romans 10:16

Despised and rejected Isaiah 53:3 Mark 9:12, Luke 17:25,
John 1:10-11, 1 Peter 2:4

He has borne our infirmities Isaiah 53:4 Matthew 8:16-17

Considered smitten by God Isaiah 53:4 Galatians 3:13,Matthew27:38-44, L Luke 23:35

Wounded for our transgressions Isaiah 53:5 Romans 4:25

We are healed by his stripes Isaiah 53:5 1 Peter 2:24

Jesus was flogged Isaiah 53:5 Mark 15:15, Luke 22:63-65,
John 19:1

Silent before His accusers Isaiah 53:7 Matthew 26:62-63, 27:12-14,
Mark 14:60-61, 15:3-15,
John 19:9, Acts 8:32-35

Christ died for our sins Isaiah 53:8 1 Corinthians 15:3

Died with the wicked Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:38, Mark 15:27-28, L Luke 23:32-33

Buried with the rich Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:57-60, Mark 15:43-46, L Luke 23:50-53, John 19:38-42

Lived a sinless life Isaiah 53:9 1 Peter 2:22

Jesus was an offering for sin Isaiah 53:10 1 Corinthians 15:3, Hebrews 10:12-14

He would justify many Isaiah 53:11 Acts 13:38-39, Romans 5:17-19

He will be great Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 28:18, Luke 24:27

Numbered with transgressors Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38, Mark 15:27-28, L Luke 23:32-33

Made intercession for sinners Isaiah 53:12 Luke 23:34, 39-43, Romans 8:34

Messianic Prophecies from Psalm 22
Promise Prophecy Fulfillment
The forsaken Christ Psalm 22:1 Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34

Verbally abused by men Psalm 22:6-7 Matthew 26:67-68, 27:27-31

Trust in God ridiculed Psalm 22:8 Matthew 27:39-44, Mark 15:29-32, L Luke 23:35, 39

Surrounded by enemies Psalm 22:12 Matthew 27:27-31, Mark 15:16-20

Physically weakened Psalm 22:14-15 Matthew 27:32, Mark 15:21, L
Luke 23:26

Thirsty Psalm 22:15 John 19:28

Surrounded by enemies Psalm 22:16 Matthew 27:39-44

Hands and feet pierced Psalm 22:16 John 20:20, 25

Bones not broken Psalm 22:17 John 19:31-36

Stared at by the people Psalm 22:17 Matthew 27:55-56, Luke 23:35, 48-49,
John 19:20

Lots cast for His clothing Psalm 22:18 Matthew 27:35, Mark 15:24,
Luke 23:34, John 19:23-24

God heard His prayers Psalm 22:21, 24 Hebrews 5:7-8
 
approx. 0.064. more proof
  • Born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:21-23)
  • A descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3; 22:18; Matthew 1:1; Galatians 3:16)
  • Of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10; Luke 3:23, 33; Hebrews 7:14)
  • Of the house of David (2 Samuel 7:12-16; Matthew 1:1)
  • Born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7)
  • Taken to Egypt (Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:14-15)
  • Herod´s killing of the infants (Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16-18)
  • Anointed by the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 11:2; Matthew 3:16-17)
  • Heralded by the messenger of the Lord (John the Baptist) (Isaiah 40:3-5; Malachi 3:1; Matthew 3:1-3)
  • Would perform miracles (Isaiah 35:5-6; Matthew 9:35)
  • Would preach good news (Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:14-21)
  • Would minister in Galilee (Isaiah 9:1; Matthew 4:12-16) Would cleanse the Temple (Malachi 3:1; Matthew 21:12-13)
  • Would first present Himself as King 173,880 days from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25; Matthew 21:4-11)
  • Would enter Jerusalem as a king on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:4-9)
  • Would be rejected by Jews (Psalm 118:22; I Peter 2:7)
  • Die a humiliating death (Psalm 22; Isaiah 53) involving:
  1. rejection (Isaiah 53:3; John 1:10-11; 7:5,48)
  2. betrayal by a friend (Psalm 41:9; Luke 22:3-4; John 13:18)
  3. sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:14-15)
  4. silence before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12-14)
  5. being mocked (Psalm 22: 7-8; Matthew 27:31)
  6. beaten (Isaiah 52:14; Matthew 27:26)
  7. spit upon (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 27:30)
  8. piercing His hands and feet (Psalm 22:16; Matthew 27:31)
  9. being crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38)
  10. praying for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34)
  11. piercing His side (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34)
  12. given gall and vinegar to drink (Psalm 69:21, Matthew 27:34, Luke 23:36)
  13. no broken bones (Psalm 34:20; John 19:32-36)
  14. buried in a rich man’s tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60)
  15. casting lots for His garments (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23-24)
  • Would rise from the dead!! (Psalm 16:10; Mark 16:6; Acts 2:31)
  • Ascend into Heaven (Psalm 68:18; Acts 1:9)
  • Would sit down at the right hand of God (Psalm 110:1; Hebrews 1:3)
 
Well lets see…last time around we had a perfect example of …‘probability’ …we had two …one +one=two.presidential candidates…from 'different’parties…each was a grad of Yale and each was a member of the skull and bones club of that rich mans college!.This hardly was a co-incidence. This time around we have two candidates again…no difference in the major political agendas…NAFTA,Big Nanny government,worlds policeman,etc etc…again a Hobsons choice…which is no choice at all…as to a first cause…a prime mover…my favorite is finding a watch that is still ticking in the fields and convincing myself that all of these various parts that made up this time piece somehow,by accident just merged and became what it is…an intricate watch…better then a sundial yet!!! No one dies for a lie knowing its a lie…the apostles went to their deaths believing in Jesus…they saw Him beaten ,stabbed and sealed into a sealed tomb…by professional executioners…'probability? all of this a passover plot…no,for Jesus would have suffocated to death in that cave but instead left it to resume His ministry.With all of the horrible food stuffs and lead based painted toys for our tots shipped over here by communist china,the ‘probability’ of it being an accident that the current olympics are being held there is just too much to even consider…My God is the God of Truth,not of madison ave…
 
I did not say anything specific. I only said that the value of a hearsay testimony is a different matter.
Pardon me for thinking of your response as a generalization when it was in response to a thread specifiying something :rolleyes:
Possible, not probable. So what?
Possible based on what? Nvm that, this will be expounded in the relevant quotation area regarding witnesses and such which you mentioned.
Since I did not offer any reasoning, your criticism is a bit premature. 🙂
Gee:
There is no objective evidence that the prophecies occurred at all, there is no objective evidence that they are quoted correctly, and there in no objective evidence that the prophecies were fulfilled. The only available evidence is an ancient book - in other words: hearsay evidence.
If that’s not reasoning, what else could it be? Perhaps custard pie? Infact you formulated some statements, you reasoned and thus put it down, there is reasoning in what you put. I do not see why I have to point this out. I know there are many different definitions of “reasoning” but it can be agreed that before someone writes something down, they “reason” out an answer.

Where are those personal testimonies? Who are the witnesses? Where are the testimonials recorded? Be specific, if possible.

Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough. Personal testimonies as in “testimonies of faith”, such as: the working of Christ in one’s life. But also, in conjunction with the historical proof of Jesus. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus is one.
Early church fathers:

newadvent.org/fathers/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_fathers

One extra biblical source to an early historian:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus

If you imply that I should gather evidence of historical proof of Jesus as in bringing his bones or something or the other to light, it could similarly be applied to any ancient person whose corpse and etc. doesn’t exist but lives through recollection through books and historical records. Which was what I was talking about earlier.
Since I did not offer any reasoning yet…
See the earlier point on this.
Of course atheists accept a lot of things without actual, physical evidence.
Now let me actually offer some reasoning, so you can criticize if you want to.
The acceptability of hearsay testimonies depends on a lot of things. First, it depends on the reliability of the witnesses.
Reliability in this sense it seems is highly subjective. Especially since you would pick some accounts over others. Such as, who was right regarding Jesus’ existence, the early church fathers or the reason documenters on Discovery Channel “apparently” disproving Jesus ever existed.
Second, it depends on the length of the “witness-chain”, on the number of people who only heard it from someone, who also heard it from somone else… the longer the chain, the less reliable the testimony. I don’t say that the people intentionally distorted the events - though that is not unheard of - but telling and re-telling a story is bound to distort it.
This is true of anything, not only Jesus. But only so much can be distorted by a book that it is written or any other historical text, extra biblical or not. Unless you wish to imply the dating methods are incorrect.
Then there is the “credibility” factor, though “credibility” is highly subjective. The less credible the story is, we demand more witnesses, more reliable witnesses, etc…
Credibility, reliability, all addressed above.
Next comes the seriousness of the claims. It is no wonder that in criminal cases the required level of evidence is much higher than in civil lawsuits. The requirement of “reasonable doubt” is much higher than the “preponderance of evidence”.
Whatsoever do you mean? Examples please, one or two will suffice.
Generally speaking there are lots of factors which determine the value of hearsay evidence. I only touched on a few. And the subjectivity cannot be “weeded out”.
I do not expect you to go on in length about the factors, I do not disagree with the factors, but rather the logic applied to accepting certain historical things and not others.
Now, specifically, the case in question. How reliable is the Bible? What are the actual, historical events recorded? How are they reported by other, independent witnesses? How about the not-so probable events? Miracles, etc? How about the errors in the Bible? All these must be weighed and taken into consideration.
See Josephus as one independent witness. “Not-so” probable, based on what grounds? “Errors” bring the errors to light, please do not copy paste the entire skepticsannotated bible.
My personal opinion: the Bible is an interesting collection of ancient writings, some historical, some mythical. They were written by simple, superstitious people, whose knowledge of nature was very primitive.
Stating opinions is one thing, but actually getting around to proving things is quite another. Knowledge of nature may have been primitive relatively to our time, but your argument supposes all miracles and such must have happened due to nature and not by “miracles by God” per se, do you agree or disagree? And how sure are you of this?
The books were selected by a panel of people, who included those which they liked, and rejected those which they did not like. Arguably the Bible is the most edited, most modified book of all times. It has been translated, many times. There are serious scientific errors in it. There are lots of nonsensical events described in it.
The books were selected by a panel of people yes, the most original versions present today date back to the year 350, codex vaticanus, it was in greek, hence your theory of error in translations is not really relevant because certain texts are there. Are the original scriptures which the disciples supposedly wrote on still existing? No, but neither are a lot of the great works of chinese mathematicians in the B.C period, but it is accepted that many methods of mathematics were discovered before the Europeans did. What nonsensical events are you talking about? Nonsensical to you? Or to everyone?
I find its credibility exactly on par with all the other mythologies, namely zero.
That’s fine, opinions are opinions, but certain opinions don’t hold much weight without evidence.
Now you can criticize. 🙂
Oh indeed
 
If that’s not reasoning, what else could it be?
It was a statement of facts.
Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough. Personal testimonies as in “testimonies of faith”, such as: the working of Christ in one’s life. But also, in conjunction with the historical proof of Jesus. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus is one.
Early church fathers:

newadvent.org/fathers/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_fathers

One extra biblical source to an early historian:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus
You are right: it is “one”, it is the “only one”. And it is very likely a later addition. But the point remains: there are no other sources to substantiate the Bible. It must be examined on its own accord.
Credibility, reliability, all addressed above.
No, credibility of the claims, not the witnesses. If you would claim that you won 10 bucks on a scratch-off lottery, I would accept your claim as probably true. If you would claim that you won the jackpot on five different state lotteries on the same week, I would doubt your claim, because it would not be credible.
See Josephus as one independent witness.
He was the only one. And even his testimony is believed to be a later addition by historians.
“Not-so” probable, based on what grounds?
Scientific grounds.
“Errors” bring the errors to light, please do not copy paste the entire skepticsannotated bible.
OK. The Bible states that the value of “pi” is exactly “3”. (Don’t bother to point out that the Bible is not a science textbook. It is supposed to be the word of God. Since it states such serious errors, its “divine” origin is highly doubtful.)
Stating opinions is one thing, but actually getting around to proving things is quite another. Knowledge of nature may have been primitive relatively to our time, but your argument supposes all miracles and such must have happened due to nature and not by “miracles by God” per se, do you agree or disagree? And how sure are you of this?
Sure enough that I would not base my life on it.
 
OK. The Bible states that the value of “pi” is exactly “3”. (Don’t bother to point out that the Bible is not a science textbook. It is supposed to be the word of God. Since it states such serious errors, its “divine” origin is highly doubtful.)
The Bible was written by men, inspired by God and free from error in faith and morals. For God to have corrected whoever wrote that in the Bible would have constituted a breach in the man’s freedom to discover it for himself by the light of reason, since its dicovery is amenable to reason, where revelation is not, in my opinion. The only part of scripture in which God saw fit to reveal things amenable to reason were the “preambles of the faith”, which were important precisely for the faith, not math or science.
Sure enough that I would not base my life on it.
People don’t “base” their life on a book, I hope. They center their faith on communion with Christ.

God Bless

Jon Winterburn
 
The Bible was written by men, inspired by God and free from error in faith and morals.
The word “inspired” is a nice word, but what the heck does it mean? If there is one erroneous statement in the Bible, then one can reasonable conclude that there are others, so you assertion: “error free in faith and morals” is in serious doubt.
For God to have corrected whoever wrote that in the Bible would have constituted a breach in the man’s freedom to discover it for himself by the light of reason, since its dicovery is amenable to reason, where revelation is not, in my opinion.
The trouble with this is that even in Biblical times, there were much better approximations to the value of “pi”, than a very incorrect “3”. Actually, not too much later, a Chinese mathematician suggested the value of 355/113 which is an amazingly accurate approximation, correct to 6 decimal places! (3.141592 - breathtakingly accurate for those times.)
The only part of scripture in which God saw fit to reveal things amenable to reason were the “preambles of the faith”, which were important precisely for the faith, not math or science.
As Scrooge said: “Bah, humbug!”. It is the whole veracity of the Bible which is in doubt here. Any error, no matter how miniscule it might be (and this is not a miniscule error at all) puts the concept of “Godly inspiration” into serious jeopardy. I suggest that even the smallest error repudiates the divine inspiration, the errors reveal that the Bible is just a collection of the musings of ancient goatherders (not that I have anything against goatherders) whose ignorance is the explanation for the errors in the Bible.
People don’t “base” their life on a book, I hope. They center their faith on communion with Christ.
They sure do. Because the Bible is the only historical source which is the basis of their faith - and which is supposed to be a divine inspiration (whatever that might be). The so called “sacred tradition” is just the opinion of a bunch of fallible humans.
 
The word “inspired” is a nice word, but what the heck does it mean? If there is one erroneous statement in the Bible, then one can reasonable conclude that there are others, so you assertion: “error free in faith and morals” is in serious doubt.

The trouble with this is that even in Biblical times, there were much better approximations to the value of “pi”, than a very incorrect “3”. Actually, not too much later, a Chinese mathematician suggested the value of 355/113 which is an amazingly accurate approximation, correct to 6 decimal places! (3.141592 - breathtakingly accurate for those times.)

As Scrooge said: “Bah, humbug!”. It is the whole veracity of the Bible which is in doubt here. Any error, no matter how miniscule it might be (and this is not a miniscule error at all) puts the concept of “Godly inspiration” into serious jeopardy. I suggest that even the smallest error repudiates the divine inspiration, the errors reveal that the Bible is just a collection of the musings of ancient goatherders (not that I have anything against goatherders) whose ignorance is the explanation for the errors in the Bible.

They sure do. Because the Bible is the only historical source which is the basis of their faith - and which is supposed to be a divine inspiration (whatever that might be). The so called “sacred tradition” is just the opinion of a bunch of fallible humans.
Rubbish.
There is much to corroborate scripture as a historical record.
There is archaeological evidence, manuscript evidence, evidence of witnesses and the science of statistical probability. Actually, the evidence of witnesses and statistical probability go hand in hand in many cases.

For instance, people - not long after the ascension of Jesus - were willing victims of some of the most violent deaths of the time. Statistical probability tells us that this is would be illogical and incredulous if they didn’t hold their beliefs to be true.

The story of the martyrdom of Christians is as much a part of secular history as it is a scriptural account. In fact, secular history tells us far more than scripture on the matter.

Scripture doesn’t write about the fall of Jerusalem and the desecration of the Temple but it WAS foretold by Jesus himself - in the Scriptures.

As for Scripture having erroneous statements - I challenge you to produce them.
 
For instance, people - not long after the ascension of Jesus - were willing victims of some of the most violent deaths of the time. Statistical probability tells us that this is would be illogical and incredulous if they didn’t hold their beliefs to be true.
Which alleged deaths are only recorded the Bible… But even if they were recorded elsewhere, what would that “prove”? Only that they were convinced of their reasons. Are you willing to use the same standards and proclaim that the Muslims who perpetrated the attacks on the Twin Towers thus gave a “valid testimony” of their faith? I think not.
As for Scripture having erroneous statements - I challenge you to produce them.
I already did.
 
The trouble with this is that even in Biblical times, there were much better approximations to the value of “pi”, than a very incorrect “3”. Actually, not too much later, a Chinese mathematician suggested the value of 355/113 which is an amazingly accurate approximation, correct to 6 decimal places! (3.141592 - breathtakingly accurate for those times.)
There is no mathematical error concerning pi in the bible. I suggest you check what the scripture actually says. Better yet, check out the following link:

bibleprobe.com/pi.htm
 
As for Scripture having erroneous statements - I challenge you to produce them.
There appears to be an error with reference to the age of Joachin when he began to reign:
Second Book Of Paralipomenon
Chapter 36:
9 Joachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem, and he did evil in the sight of the Lord.
But according to:
Fourth Book Of Kings
Chapter 24
8 Joachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, a and he reigned three months in Jerusalem: the name of his mother was Nohesta the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.
 
There is no mathematical error concerning pi in the bible. I suggest you check what the scripture actually says. Better yet, check out the following link:

bibleprobe.com/pi.htm
It looks to me like there is an error with reference to the value of pi in the bible:
(1 Ki 7:23 NIV) He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it.

If we use 10 as the diameter then the circumference should be 31.42.
 
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