Science of probability

[Harmony1988]

When we point out an error, it is sometimes said that this is a hyperbole. But what is a hyperbole, except a representation of something as different from the actual case of what it is. When you represent something as different from what it is, you have done something that satisfies the definition of an error. This is one way to make an error: to represent something as different from what it actually is.

That would be valid if it could be proved, the only way to know is to study jewish culture and the culture of ancient rome and the jews at that specific period of time to understand their way of talking and how they used analogies and popular analogies at the times.

That is what is known as “exegesis” in scripture, there are people trained to do that, so don’t be naive enough to think you have some how stumbled across this probability issue leading you to believe in some strange conspiracy theory that the meanings are really just conjectural notions derived from hyperbole in the Bible.

In modern english we know what certain hyperbole mean, if not most of them. “Oh cry me a river”, “Talk to the hand”, “Uncle Sam dips in your pocket”, now without knowing the cultural context, people from other countries would have no idea what these terms mean, they may take it literally. So how would they know what it means? STUDYING. ← What do exegetes do?!

Do you want to argue over what “Oh cry me a river” really means in the people’s vulgar? Perhaps you want to suggest that different people mean it differently? If I were to conduct a poll on what that specific phrase meant to people, how many do you think would agree that it’s in the context of someone whinging away at something or the other and the other person upon hearing it gets annoyed and dismisses them frankly?

I bet big money on this one. So much for your hypothesis.

 

[bobzills]

Bobzills, you haven’t read what I gave you. I even took the liberty of quoting the relevant parts of the text from the website and even fonting them in a specific colour. But you aren’t interested in reading, you are more interested in bringing up the same thing over and over again that is answered:

This is exactly the way you are going right now.

I won’t bother providing any evidence for your question, as it’s easily obtainable by looking at my last response to this.

there is no analogy between the mathematical equation 2+2=4 and the two statements which are in contradiction:

1. Call no man Father
2. Call Catholic priests Father.

 

[Harmony1988]

there is no analogy between the mathematical equation 2+2=4 and the two statements which are in contradiction:

1. Call no man Father
2. Call Catholic priests Father.

So your lack of response to my other post on addressing your claims of errors disguised as metaphors means you have no response to that eh? So I keep that as refuted.

Keeping that in mind, it seems you have taken the neanderthal approach of denying metaphors/figures of speech/hyperbole. With that, that’s the end of the discussion, Bible or no Bible, reading anything requires the reader to beaware of context, be more aware of paragraphs than lines and also recognize that ancient texts have different ways of expressing things, more so when they use hyperbole.

I suggest a crash course in 9th grade literature (that’s when I recall us learning how to apply literary critical techniques)

 

[elvisman]

there is no analogy between the mathematical equation 2+2=4 and the two statements which are in contradiction:

1. Call no man Father
2. Call Catholic priests Father.

You just don’t pay attention do you.
Actually, I’ve already exposed you as an anti-Catholic. Now, I’m exposing you as one of those antagonists on this forum whose sole purpose is to be a pest.

You don**'t respond intelligently to the scriptures placed before you and you keep arguing the same point - even after it’s been demolished.**

**Either you post just to see how many feathers you can ruffle - or you’re just not that bright. **
**My personal opinion - BOTH. **

 

[Sideline]

If specific prophecies were fulfilled by the Messiah does the science of probability consider this “Proof” there is a God?

No, it doesn’t.

Forgive me if I am repeating something already said, but the odds of fulfilling a prophecy go up considerably when you know the prophecy in advance and have the ability to affect the outcome. The people who wrote the Gospels knew the Hebrew Bible (Well, Mark was pretty sketchy on it, actually.) and they could easily say Jesus did things to fit what was written.

You are also using a MASSIVE selection bias in choosing these prophecies. Take Psalm 107, it says the LORD shall break doors of bronze and cut iron bars in half. When did Jesus do that?

Oh wait, he didn’t. But that’s okay because that Psalm 107 isn’t prophetic. Of course, if Jesus did break bronze doors and sever iron bars, then it would have been prophetic.

If you are going to chose from all the psalms without bias, you will find that Jesus’ track record dips significantly. You will also find that it would have fulfilled the prophecies just as well if he had been stabbed, burned alive, thrown in prison to rot, hanged, and drowned. They just would have had to pick other parts of the Bible to be prophetic.

What this means is, it is impossible for these 48 prophecies to be fulfilled apart from the one whom appointed it God.

No, it means that the people who make these claims are making massive errors in their methods.

 

[bobzills]

So your lack of response to my other post on addressing your claims of errors disguised as metaphors means you have no response to that eh? So I keep that as refuted.

Keeping that in mind, it seems you have taken the neanderthal approach of denying metaphors/figures of speech/hyperbole. With that, that’s the end of the discussion, Bible or no Bible, reading anything requires the reader to beaware of context, be more aware of paragraphs than lines and also recognize that ancient texts have different ways of expressing things, more so when they use hyperbole.

I suggest a crash course in 9th grade literature (that’s when I recall us learning how to apply literary critical techniques)

Obviusly, if everyting in the bible is metaphorical, then there is no error to be found. However, that would have a downside, in that the gay rights lobby would tell us that we should not take the Biblical sanctions against homosexuality literally. Etc. And hell is not to be taken literally, etc.
Here’s another error in the Bible:
Unless a man be baptised by water and the Holy Soirit he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. .
Of course, we should take this metaphorically also, and that will solve the problem.
It’s a great way to counter the objection that there may be an error in the Bible. Simply say that every objection is a metaphor and the objector should take a ninth grade course in the use of metaphorical expressions.

 

[elvisman]

Here’s another error in the Bible:
Unless a man be baptised by water and the Holy Soirit he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

Where’s the error?

[Edited]

 

[bobzills]

Where’s the error?

Ther error here is that the good thief was not baptised by water and the Holy Spirit and he entered heaven.

 

[elvisman]

Ther error here is that the good thief was not baptised by water and the Holy Spirit and he entered heaven.

**Why did I know that you were going to try to use this passage to discredit the Bible? **
The “good thief” experienced what is referred to as a baptism of desire.

Even in our legal system, you have the word of the law and the spirit of the law.

You’re not supposed to speed in excess of 65 miles per hour. However, if a maneuver was made to avoid an accident, it is up to the discretion of the police officer to interpret whether or not the spirit of the law applied.

You can have a law that says, “Marijuana is illegal”.
Yet you can have a cancer patient that doesn’t get in trouble because he was clearly using it for medicinal purposes.

**Your problem is that you just don’t have enough faith in God to believe that he can make exceptions. **

[Edited]

 

[bobzills]

Why did I know that you were going to try to use this passage to discredit the Bible?
The "good thief" experienced what is referred to as a baptism of desire.

Even in our legal system, you have the word of the law and the spirit of the law.

You’re not supposed to speed in excess of 65 miles per hour. However, if a maneuver was made to avoid an accident, it is up to the discretion of the police officer to interpret whether or not the spirit of the law applied.

You can have a law that says, “Marijuana is illegal”.
Yet you can have a cancer patient that doesn’t get in trouble because he was clearly using it for medicinal purposes.

**Your **problem is that you just don’t have enough faith in God to believe that he can make exceptions.

[Edited]

I am not too sure what this has to do with the science of probability? And probability theory?

 

[elvisman]

I am not too sure what this has to do with the science of probability? And probability theory?

**It doesn’t appear that you’re too sure about many things. **
Namely, whether you are a Catholic or an agnostic/atheist - although it’s pretty clear to the rest of us . . .

 

[Harmony1988]

Obviusly, if everyting in the bible is metaphorical, then there is no error to be found. However, that would have a downside, in that the gay rights lobby would tell us that we should not take the Biblical sanctions against homosexuality literally. Etc. And hell is not to be taken literally, etc.
Here’s another error in the Bible:
Unless a man be baptised by water and the Holy Soirit he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. .
Of course, we should take this metaphorically also, and that will solve the problem.
It’s a great way to counter the objection that there may be an error in the Bible. Simply say that every objection is a metaphor and the objector should take a ninth grade course in the use of metaphorical expressions.

I’m not going to even bother, you can use google, like I’ve mentioned numerous times before. Kindly don’t look at an atheist source for an explanation, use a Catholic source, so you get the Catholic explanation for your proposed errors in the Bible.

I never said everything in the Bible is metaphorical, there are many things that aren’t metaphorical, I am suggesting that you be aware of metaphors and also be aware that you don’t know hyperbole from millenia past, and furthermore you lack cultural knowledge of that period, and let’s not forget the transliteration issues. These have been solved, throughout the ages through the painstaking work of men and women, and with all those resources handed down and most being milliseconds away (internet) with explanations of ancient things, one really must be avoiding the truth or the POSSIBILITY of truth to constantly make statements that imply one hasn’t researched the issue.

 

[holy_wood]

No, it doesn’t.

Forgive me if I am repeating something already said, but the odds of fulfilling a prophecy go up considerably when you know the prophecy in advance and have the ability to affect the outcome. The people who wrote the Gospels knew the Hebrew Bible (Well, Mark was pretty sketchy on it, actually.) and they could easily say Jesus did things to fit what was written.

This was addressed by the OP, you can to an extent affect some of the outcomes in the efforts of fulfilling a prophesy. Jesus riding in through the eastern gate on an ***.
However, you can’t control what others do to you.

Also, it is very difficult to fake a resurrection don’t you agree.

I don’t have all the information. I just can’t fathom why a man would claim divinity if he wasn’t the messiah. He was who he said he was or else he was a liar or a lunatic. I’ll be more than happy to discuss this.

One can claim that he was misunderstood but to say that we 2000 years removed from the event understood Jesus better than his Apostles and disciples and 2000 years of learned scholars would, to me, make that individual the personification of presumptuousness and arrogance.

I also don’t believe that all 11 Apostles would suffer persecution and martyrdom for what they knew for a fact to be a lie; 40 days after their masters crucifixion and 40 days after they abandoned him.

You are also using a MASSIVE selection bias in choosing these prophecies. Take Psalm 107, it says the LORD shall break doors of bronze and cut iron bars in half. When did Jesus do that?

Oh wait, he didn’t. But that’s okay because that Psalm 107 isn’t prophetic. Of course, if Jesus did break bronze doors and sever iron bars, then it would have been prophetic.

If you are going to chose from all the psalms without bias, you will find that Jesus’ track record dips significantly. You will also find that it would have fulfilled the prophecies just as well if he had been stabbed, burned alive, thrown in prison to rot, hanged, and drowned. They just would have had to pick other parts of the Bible to be prophetic.

John 20:

Then he saith to Thomas: Put in thy finger hither, and see my hands; and bring hither thy hand, and put it into my side; and be not faithless, but believing. 28 Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God. 29 Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed. 30 Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book. 31 But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name.

First off. Not everything Jesus did has been recorded. He might very well have broke doors of bronze and cut iron bars in half.

We did not personally know him, we just don’t know. As the verse above states he did many other signs. The ones narrated have only been recorded in order that YOU believe.

I guess this is where we differ Sideline, I, along with the writer of the gospel, see a historical record of a rabbi who went around healing sick people, raising dead people and rising oneself from the dead a bit more significant and convincing for claims of divinity than breaking doors of bronze and cutting iron bars in half.

That omission doesn’t aid the debate over his claims. Obviously he did many extraordinary and prophetic things that made quite a number of Jews believe who he claimed he was (i.e. the messiah). It would be impossible and very inconvenient to write every single thing in Jesus’ life.

The way I see it about 3 billion Christians from now to 1 A.D. have believed with as much or less information than provided to you today. If its true then when you die I think God’s question for your lack of faith would be “what was your problem? What made you more special and more deserving of more evidence than all those who came before you and all those who came after who gave the ascent of their intellect and will over to me”?

Blessed are they that believe, and have not seen indeed.

Secondly, you are over simplifying the issue. Not every verse in the NT that says states “so that it might be fulfilled…” is actually a prophesy. Some are merely typology. I don’t know if you knew that or not, just providing information about the subject you might not known. If you don’t know what “typology” is wiki it.

Furthermore, your objections are not original

John the Baptist, Jesus’ first disciple, doubted like you doubt Sideline.

Matthew 11:

2When John heard in prison what Christ was doing, he sent his disciples **
3to ask him, “Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?” 4Jesus replied, "Go back and report to John what you hear and see:
**
5The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor.

6*Blessed is the man who does not fall away on account of me." *

Did you catch that.

He was being beaten and aware of his coming end. drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=48&ch=6&l=24&f=s#x

In his doubt he sent out two of his disciples to find out if all his suffering was in vain or not.

Reread the above passage and see what Jesus’ response was. Jesus basically told the disciples to tell John hey!!! I am aware that I am not doing what you and the majority of our brother and sister Jews expected of him.

But behold the wonders that you have heard seen done by me. I have healed the blind and lame, I have risen the dead, and I have proclaimed the glory, truth, and salvation of the gospel of God our Father to his children Israel;** HAVE FAITH**, see that I have done these things and believe that in MY TIME I will do the rest, and please, please, please my friend; do not stumble on part of the Son of Man.

 

[Sideline]

This was addressed by the OP, you can to an extent affect some of the outcomes in the efforts of fulfilling a prophesy. Jesus riding in through the eastern gate on an ***.
However, you can’t control what others do to you.

Also, it is very difficult to fake a resurrection don’t you agree.

No, I don’t actually. It wouldn’t be nearly as hard as some people seem to think it is. I can’t prove it happened, but it is certainly possible.

Please point out the passage that says, “The messiah will be crucified by Romans.” What you have in that psalm is a reference to enemies "piercing my hands and my feet’. No where does it suggest that the psalm is even supposed to be a prophecy.

I don’t have all the information. I just can’t fathom why a man would claim divinity if he wasn’t the messiah. He was who he said he was or else he was a liar or a lunatic. I’ll be more than happy to discuss this.

Even that one is kind of sketchy. In what verse does Jesus say, “I am God. Literally, I am one in being with God. I am fully human and fully divine, and I am in no way speaking metaphorically.”

You really can’t fathom someone claiming divinity? Have you studied no history? Are you unaware of just how many people have made the same claim? It was practically common at the same time. Being a son of god at that time was also a different concept than it is today.

One can claim that he was misunderstood but to say that we 2000 years removed from the event understood Jesus better than his Apostles and disciples and 2000 years of learned scholars would, to me, make that individual the personification of presumptuousness and arrogance.

Or it could mean that we have more information.

I also don’t believe that all 11 Apostles would suffer persecution and martyrdom for what they knew for a fact to be a lie; 40 days after their masters crucifixion and 40 days after they abandoned him.

Who said they all knew? Who said they were all martyred? I’m pretty sure John wasn’t, and he was the only one who supposedly wrote one of the Gospels. Ironic, really.

But really, all this says is that you can’t believe it. I’m not disputing that.

 

[elvisman]

No, I don’t actually. It wouldn’t be nearly as hard as some people seem to think it is. I can’t prove it happened, but it is certainly possible.

Please point out the passage that says, “The messiah will be crucified by Romans.” What you have in that psalm is a reference to enemies "piercing my hands and my feet’. No where does it suggest that the psalm is even supposed to be a prophecy.

Even that one is kind of sketchy. In what verse does Jesus say, “I am God. Literally, I am one in being with God. I am fully human and fully divine, and I am in no way speaking metaphorically.”

You really can’t fathom someone claiming divinity? Have you studied no history? Are you unaware of just how many people have made the same claim? It was practically common at the same time. Being a son of god at that time was also a different concept than it is today.

Or it could mean that we have more information.

Who said they all knew? Who said they were all martyred? I’m pretty sure John wasn’t, and he was the only one who supposedly wrote one of the Gospels. Ironic, really.

But really, all this says is that you can’t believe it. I’m not disputing that.

Matthew also wrote one of the gospels - or don’t you know your history?

Jesus said MANY times that he was God - you just haven’t done your homework:

Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Matthew 1:23

---

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

---

Jesus said:
I and my Father are one. John 10:30

---

**If it calls them gods to whom the word of God came, and scripture cannot be set aside, can you say that the one whom the Father has consecrated and sent into the world blasphemes because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? **
**If I do not perform my Father’s works, do not believe me; but if I perform them, even if you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may realize (and understand) that the Father is in me and I am in the Father." **John 10:35 – 38

---

**“I Am” was understood by Jews at the time to mean the name of God: **
******You call Me Teacher and Lord; and ye say well; for so I Am. **
John 13:13

---

And Jesus said, I Am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Mark 14:61-62

---

he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:9

---

. . . because he had not only broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making Himself equal with God. John 5:18****

Ummm . . . any more smug comments?

 

[Sideline]

**Ummm . . . any more smug **comments?

Just that I’m not responding to you anymore. I find all of the colours distracting, and nothing you write is all that relevant.

 

[elvisman]

Just that I’m not responding to you anymore. I find all of the colours distracting, and nothing you write is all that relevant.

Hmmmm . . . a little too relevant, I’d say.
**If you can’t answer the question or don’t know what to say when presented with the truth - just say so. **

 

[holy_wood]

No, I don’t actually. It wouldn’t be nearly as hard as some people seem to think it is. I can’t prove it happened, but it is certainly possible.

All things are possible. Most of the reasons we give for what we believe amount to probabilities, not proofs. For instance, the building you sit in may collapse in one minute, but the reliability of the contractor and the construction materials is a good reason for thinking that very improbable.

The probability that the Romans let Jesus off the cross before making sure he was dead (stabbing through the heart with a spear makes us pretty certain dead) is very improbable.

Please point out the passage that says, “The messiah will be crucified by Romans.” What you have in that psalm is a reference to enemies "piercing my hands and my feet’. No where does it suggest that the psalm is even supposed to be a prophecy.

Not every book in the Bible claims to be the inspired word of God. This doesn’t cause a problem for Jews or Christians

Read the whole chapter its obviously talking about the Messiah. Jews even admit this.
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2022;%20Zech%2012;&version=31;

Even that one is kind of sketchy. In what verse does Jesus say, “I am God. Literally, I am one in being with God. I am fully human and fully divine, and I am in no way speaking metaphorically.”

elvis did a pretty good job addressing this. This site does better.

scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html#jesus-III

You really can’t fathom someone claiming divinity? Have you studied no history? Are you unaware of just how many people have made the same claim? It was practically common at the same time. Being a son of god at that time was also a different concept than it is today.

Reread the post I said I can’t fathom someone claiming divinity who was not the*** Lord***, lyingor a lunatic. He said he would rise from the dead, forgive sins, he claimed the Divine name for himself, ect., ect. These things nearly got him stoned for blasphemy.

Or it could mean that we have more information.

Yeah, we 2,000 years removed from the fact have more information of what Jesus said and meant better than the men who traveled with him for 3 years.

You do know that not everything Jesus said or did is not in the Bible. I’m pretty sure I demonstrated this to you in the previous post. Logic alone testifies to this fact.

Might I ask what information do we have that the early disciples and Apostles did not?

Who said they all knew? Who said they were all martyred? I’m pretty sure John wasn’t, and he was the only one who supposedly wrote one of the Gospels. Ironic, really.

But really, all this says is that you can’t believe it. I’m not disputing that.

They all were reported seeing the risen Christ. Read the gospels. Do you need references?

I love your logic. Not written personally by the Apostles, only one of their pupils, therefore false.

Martyred or not, they all endured a great deal of suffering for what they knew for a fact to be false.

 

[juhothenero]

Who said they all knew? Who said they were all martyred? I’m pretty sure John wasn’t, and he was the only one who supposedly wrote one of the Gospels. Ironic, really.

But really, all this says is that you can’t believe it. I’m not disputing that.

apostles.com/apostlesdied.html

John was the only one who died naturally of the twelve… Also Paul was martyred… This really seems to be so that John by himself faked the whole thing!!! OF COURSE… why i didn’t find that one out before…

Seriously, not only these 11 died for Christ (Judas had a little different end), but later on also hundreds of other martyrs on the arenas, in times which was a more then a bit hateful for Christians… For most people with common sense that would say something on strength of their belief… and why did they have that strength? when all the other religions would have given up? I suppose there is only one explanation…

And i have heard that John stayed alive so that he could say “Love others as you love yourself” until everybody else got bored…

 

[Sideline]

apostles.com/apostlesdied.html

Bartholomew (Often identified with Nathaniel in the New Testament): Martyrdom by being either 1. Beheaded, or 2. Flayed alive and crucified, head downward.

Here’s a crash course on historical research methods: If they can’t decide how someone died, and they can’t decide on a name of the person dying, it doesn’t constitute proof.

The rest of your post is the same old story of claiming that Christians wouldn’t have died if it isn’t true, and it just doesn’t hold up. All it means that you can’t think of reasons that people would martyr themselves. A lack of imagination, or wishful thinking, doesn’t make an argument.