Science, philosophy and faith

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In another thread (about rationality) @o_mlly presented an argument:
o_mlly said:
Faith is the last font of knowledge believers call upon, iff science and philosophy fail to answer the question. What need of faith if one can see the answer? All three sources of knowledge properly understood are never in conflict and always in agreement because reality is singular.
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I gave the following answer:
Thinker_Doer said:
Philosophy contains three (or more) branches. Which one is supposed to answer questions about reality? Metaphysics is speculation. If the speculation can be verified, it becomes science. Epistemology only deals with obtaining knowledge. It is a method , which either works, or does not. It would be incorrect if someone would ask: “Is this epistemological method “X” true, or false?” It is neither true, nor false, it either works, or not.

What is the “proper understanding” of faith? How do you know if the result based on faith is correct or not? What is the epistemology of faith? Can you verify the proclamations about heaven or hell? If you cannot, it stays “speculation”.

Mind you, this is NOT a denigration of faith. We all have beliefs, which cannot be verified, and as such they all remain speculations. But they cannot be confused with knowledge.
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Then @o_mlly presented this post:
o_mlly said:
Sorry, Thinker_Doer. Your post has interesting and challenging questions and could make a new thread in this forum.
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So I will follow this suggestion, and thus here is the opening of that new discussion. Obviously everyone is welcome to contribute. I want to repeat, there is no negative assessment of faith. We all have faith in certain things, and that is perfectly fine.

I would suggest to give a proper definition of faith. How does it differ from science (or knowledge) and from philosophy (which branch of it)? I pledge that any answer will be treated with civility and with respect, even if we cannot agree.
 
I’m interested in the definition of faith! Some seem to consider it as trust but others claim it as a knowledge claim. I’m curious as to how it will be defined.
Thanks!
 
Pattylt said:
I’m interested in the definition of faith! Some seem to consider it as trust but others claim it as a knowledge claim. I’m curious as to how it will be defined.
Thanks!
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A good start, exactly what I had in mind. We need to differentiate between “faith” and “reasonable expectation”. For a specific claim there can be certain amount of evidence. The nature of the evidence is contingent upon the type of the claim. It needs to be analyzed later.

For any claim the available evidence can be described as “unquestionable”, “overwhelming”, “sufficient”, “lacking”, or “seriously lacking”, or maybe even “nonexistent”. I would suggest that the “unquestionable”, the “overwhelming” and “sufficient” all belong to the group of “reasonable expectation”. The “lacking” and “seriously lacking” plus the “nonexistent” belong to the area of “faith”. But it is somewhat more complicated than that. For some claim there is not just no evidence at all, but there is a lot of “evidence to the contrary”. This deserves the label of “blind faith”.

For each individual the dividing life between these areas can be different. For someone the evidence is sufficient, for others it is lacking. And that leads to the question of “what constitutes evidence for a claim”? This question can only be addressed when we have a reasonable agreement for the definition of “faith”.

The ball is in “your” court. 😉 Let’s get down to it! 🙂
 
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To me, faith is belief in something that can’t be absolutely proven.

For instance, one can make a strong case for the existence of God (in the way you can present a court case).

The believer decides that the case for God is strong enough to live their life a certain way and even to die for Him, and that is faith.
 
0Scarlett_nidiyilii said:
To me, faith is belief in something that can’t be absolutely proven.
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The word “prove” is only applicable in axiomatic (or deductive) systems. You cannot “prove” that there will be no overnight emergence of a huge black hole close the Earth, which will swallow all of us. But to call this “faith” makes the word meaningless.
0Scarlett_nidiyilii said:
For instance, one can make a strong case for the existence of God (in the way you can present a court case).
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I would like to see such a case - “beyond any reasonable doubt”.
 
0Scarlett_nidiyilii said:
To me, faith is belief in something that can’t be absolutely proven.
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This obviates inverting the burden of proof, if you “turn the tables” on the skeptic he’d have to refute instances of prophecy and miracles. He wouldn’t be able to.
 
Pattylt said:
I’m interested in the definition of faith!
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CCC 150. Faith is first of all a personal adherence of man to God. At the same time, and inseparably, it is a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed
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CCC 152. One cannot believe in Jesus Christ without sharing in his Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who reveals to men who Jesus is. For “no one can say “Jesus is Lord”, except by the Holy Spirit”
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III. THE CHARACTERISTICS OF FAITH

CCC 153. Faith is a grace
CCC 154 - 155. Faith is a human act
CCC 156 - 159. Faith and understanding
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http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c3a1.htm
 
adgloriam said:
is a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed
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If I’m understanding correctly, this definition of faith is an assent of our free will to believe whether we have any evidence or reason to do so? I’m trying to keep religion out of the definition as to apply it to any situation where the word faith might be used. Or is the word and concept of faith only applicable to religion?

Most of everyday speech seems to use faith as meaning trust but I think that might be wrong. Can anyone help or am I hopelessly confused?
 
Pattylt said:
Or is the word and concept of faith only applicable to religion?
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Depends on the dictionary. You have the dictionary of philosophy, dictionary of law, dictionary of sociology, an endless amount of dictionaries…(sub-sets of the possible semantic space.) You’d be amazed to what “prophetic” means in sociology (and I doubt that anyone made a full translation and comprehension of even the initials works that took the word.)
Pattylt said:
I’m trying to keep religion out of the definition as to apply it to any situation where the word faith might be used.
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If you compare all the uses of the word in all the fields the catholic definition and use is by far the best and most encompassing. Anything outside it is either partial, nonsense, or a misnomer. (Feel free to exercise a certain catholic chauvinism in linguistics.)
Pattylt said:
If I’m understanding correctly
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You may want to start by noticing @Pattylt that anyone proposing to debate this hasn’t read the indicated catechism paragraphs. That’s the correct place to start and build from.

God bless.
 
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@Thinker_Doer if you’re still around in a few days time I’ll answer. You only registered 5 days ago and I’ve already given you years of work.
 

Hebrews 11:1 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)​

11 Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not.
 
Dlee said:
the evidence of things that appear not.
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CCC 156. (…) God willed that external proofs of his Revelation should be joined to the internal helps of the Holy Spirit.“29 Thus the miracles of Christ and the saints, prophecies, the Church’s growth and holiness, and her fruitfulness and stability “are the most certain signs of divine Revelation, adapted to the intelligence of all”; they are “motives of credibility” ( motiva credibilitatis ), which show that the assent of faith is "by no means a blind impulse of the mind”.
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Thanks for your reply. It seems I will hopelessly be trying to determine which “faith” type is being used some of the time!

Ex. I have faith (trust) that my faith (assent or agreement) is true. I really wish we had two different words to be able to parse them.🤔
 
adgloriam said:
CCC 152. One cannot believe in Jesus Christ without sharing in his Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who reveals to men who Jesus is. For “no one can say “Jesus is Lord”, except by the Holy Spirit”
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My problem seems to be that the Holy Spirit reveals Jesus and if the Holy Spirit has never given me this, I will not have this faith. As I don’t have this faith, I’ve obviously never been contacted by the Holy Spirit. It’s a bit of a catch 22.
 
There are not a lot of things I can remember from high school, but one is still crystal clear: one of my Jesuit teachers demanding “Define your term!”

Faith: 1) unquestioning belief that does not require proof or evidence. 2) unquestioning belief in God, religious tenets, etc. 3) a religion, or a system of religious beliefs. 4) anything believed. 5) complete trust, confidence, or reliance. 6) allegiance to some person pr thing, loyalty.

Philosophy: *orig." 1) love of, or the search for, wisdom or knowledge. 2) theory or logical analysis of the principles underlying conduct, thought, knowledge, and the nature of the universe: included in philosophy are ethics, aesthetics, logic, epistemology, metaphysics, etc. 3) the general principles or laws of a field of knowledge, activity, etc. /the philosophy of economics/ 4) a] a particular system of principles for the conduct of life; b] ta treatise covering such a system. 5) a study of human morals, character, and behavior. 6) mental balance or composure thought of as resulting from the study of philosophy.

Science: 1) orig. 1)the state or fact of knowledge; 2) systematized knowledge derived from observation, study, and experimentation carried on in order to determine the nature or principles of what is being studied; 3) a branch of knowledge or study, esp. one concerned with establishing and systematizing facts, principles, and methods, as by experiments and hypotheses / the science of mathematics/ 4) a] the systematized knowledge of nature and the physical world b] any branch of this; 5) skill or technique based on systematized training / the science of cooking/
 
Just sticking with how I understand faith in my belief as a Catholic. Faith can only come as a grace from God. We can accept or reject the grace. As an act of intellect and free choice we can accept and obey scripture as God’s revelation. I suppose some like Aquinas can reason himself to faith but for us mere mortals all we have is God’s revelation. We can say the Creed and truly believe what we are saying or we can be skeptical. It’s our choice.
 
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