Science & Religion

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Buffalo wrote: "noun 1.the doctrine or belief that there is no God.

2.disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings."

Only the first of these definitions can be called a “faith.” The second is the absence of faith. Some atheists agree with definition 1, others with definition 2. So even if some believe 1, your statement would only apply to “some” atheists.
 
Charlemagne II posts a quote by Carl Sagan, of all people, which reads in part, " The remnants of that fireball, the cosmic background radiation, emanating from all parts of the sky can be detected by radio telescopes today. In the early universe, space was brilliantly illuminated.” Emphasis added

Yet weren’t you claiming awhile ago that there is no evidence for the Big Bang, and that COBE was discredited? Yet here on your own posts is evidence cited that disproves both those statements. (If another person posted those objections, my apologies; in that case, congratulations for having refuted them).
 
Ahimsa wrote: “Likewise, if we look at Genesis, without imposing later ideas of “creatio ex nihilo” into Genesis, we find that God created the cosmos from pre-existing chaotic forms. That would be consistent with a Big Bang that arose from a previous cosmos, or quantum vacuum even.”

And if we don’t impose later ideas of “creation ex nihilo” on the Elder Edda, we find the idea that the “pre-existing chaotic forms” were taken from the body of the giant Ymir and used to make the world.

Or if we refuse to impose “creation ex nihilo” on the Egyptian Book of the Dead, we find that the Goddess Nut, which means “night”, symbolized the primordial quantum vacuum state, while the sun god RA coupling with her signified the Big Bang, out of which photons emerged 300,000 years later as the universe cooled.

What would be the point?*** Why bother with Genesis at all?*** This nonsense is getting exasperating. Why should we expect Genesis to have any more relevance to modern cosmology than any other equally ignorant ancient myth? IT DOESN’T.
 
Yes, but he didn’t change his mind because God gave him a revelation, or he understood that Genesis was allegorical. He looked at Edwin Hubble’s scientific data on a visit to California and realized he was mistaken about an eternal universe. That’s how science works: by accepting whatever the observed and confirmed evidence tells us no matter how it goes against our preconceived and beloved notions. Revealed religion, on the other hand, says you may freely discuss subject X, as long as you keep believing dogmas Y and Z regardless. That is a recipe for ignorance.
I think my remark about Einstein was intended to show how ideology is sometimes at work in science. Einstein was honest enough to admit his mistake about the Big Bang.
 
That’s how science works: by accepting whatever the observed and confirmed evidence tells us no matter how it goes against our preconceived and beloved notions.
What about paradigm shifts (Kuhn)? Or epistemes (Foucault)?

I’m not a relativist but any philosophy of science has to address this issue.

As Kant pointed out, there are conditions of possibility for science.
 
That’s how science works: by accepting whatever the observed and confirmed evidence tells us no matter how it goes against our preconceived and beloved notions.
Science is a bit more complicated than simple induction.

As Einstein himself said, what is “observed” and “confirmed” is driven by the “theory”.
And the “theory” rests on a more fundamental paradigm (Kuhn).

For example, Newton assumed that gravity was “action at a distance”. Einstein thought this was “spooky”. So Einstein first posited space as something physical (almost like a new ether) - as something outside of us (contrary to Kant) - something subject to distortions (by mass). And then he could explain gravity almost “geometrically” in terms of the “contours” of space so it did not have to be understood as “action at a distance”.

The crucial experiment is still necessary. But without the pre-existing theory, we wouldn’t know what crucial experiment to perform. And the theory itself derives from more fundamental philosophical presuppositions, paradigms, epistemes, worldviews, etc.
 
Edwest2 wrote: " I want to repair something and I buy a repair manual. I follow the directions and the device works again. So belief and trust do matter in our daily lives."

Of course we do; and you are right that we often judge the validity of our beliefs according to how well they work – with the notable exception of religion. If you follow the directions in your repair manual and the device doesn’t work, you check your procedure to make sure you followed the directions exactly. If it still doesn’t work, you discard the manual.
But where religion is concerned, if you pray and it doesn’t work, you invent some good reason God must have had for saying no. If someone suggests maybe God wasn’t feeling generous that day, you appeal to the doctrine somebody invented centuries ago that God is infinitely good. A tornado flattens your house but leaves the one next door untouched and you thank God that no one was killed. If someone was killed, you thank God that you survived, or you say the deceased “is in a better place” or “God took them home” or some other consolation equally woven out of sorrow and hope without any foundation in fact. The thing you don’t do is throw the manual in the trash, no matter how worthless it is.
 
Science is a bit more complicated than simple induction.
Yes, and the true scientist remains open to possibilities all the time, if he respects his own discipline. If he is not open to the unknown, the untried, the unproven, he is not intellectually honest and may be, or become, a propagandist.
 
Charlemagne II wrote: " you’ll never be able to explain why the description of the initial stages of the universe is consistent between Genesis and the Big Bang. Coincidence? "

Nonexistence. Let’s see how consistent it is. I will deal with the story in Genesis 1:1-2:4, since the other doesn’t deal much with cosmology.

According to Genesis 1:1, God created the heavens and the earth “in the beginning.” That can only mean both within a relatively short time. The Big Bang Theory (or BBT) says about 10 billion years. Genesis says six days, each defined by an “evening and morning.” No hint of evenings and mornings in Big Bang theory.
Genesis 1:2 says “the earth was without form and void.” BBT posits nothing at this stage which can be called “earth.” There are not even any atoms heavier than hydrogen and helium. In fact, no atoms yet at all.
Genesis says there were “waters” that the Spirit of God hovered over. What could they refer to? Here we run into the standard problem of all such attempts to reconcile Genesis and science, namely the irresistible impulse to read current knowledge back into the text. We see “water” and realize that less than a trillionth of a second into the BB, there was no water, so immediately we assume the author of Genesis referred to something else, something conveniently formless and chaotic. What justifies us in saying that? How do we know Genesis didn’t mean exactly what we mean: wet, drinkable, etc.? Well, because science says…But wait – the author of Genesis – call him Moses for convenience, though I don’t believe Moses wrote Genesis – knew nothing of modern cosmology. There is no justification for interpreting “waters” here as anything but “waters”, which we know to be two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen, without reading modern knowledge into Genesis. You would have to show that Moses meant something different, which you have no evidence for.
But let’s go on to see more amazing compatibilities." God said “Let there be light,” and there was light." Ah, now we’re getting somewhere! Light, photons, expansion – what could be clearer? Well, what about God dividing the light from the darkness? What could that mean? Photons travel through another medium than the vacuum of space? Remember, only a tiny fraction of radiation comprises the wavelengths within our visual range, which we call “light.” Smaller and larger wavelengths produce X-rays, microwave radiation, gamma rays,ultraviolet, and so on. Are you suggesting that Moses had X-rays and microwaves on his mind? If so, how? And what indicates that in the text? If not, what can he have meant by “light”?
At any rate, nothing in BBT suggests that photons and other particles alternated in some unspecified field in which neither was present with the other, but by regularly timed intervals, as Genesis suggests by “evening and morning.”
Verse 4, God makes a firmament to separate the waters from the waters. Where is that in BBT? Verses 9 and 10 say God gathered the waters under the firmament, which were the same as the waters above it until God separated them, and were the same waters the Holy Spirit hovered over in verse 2, right? God separated those same waters from dry land and – wait a minute! As far as we have got in the Big Bang, less than a second has passed, but in Genesis we have dry land and wet water! Where did we get those? BBT says they are billions of years down the road. First stars have to form, then create heavy elements, then go through their life cycles and explode, strewing those heavy elements into space; then they have to condense into a planet small enough to become dry land rather than a giant gas ball, then cool down enough to produce enough water to gather into oceans.
Note also that this is only the third “day;” God doesn’t make stars, from which all this land came from, until the fourth day. And according to Genesis, the “waters” above the “firmament” are the same substance as those underneath, which is normal sea water; so we have a solid substance separating an ocean underneath it from an ocean above it, sloshing around in space (since “heaven” or “sky” is the space between the two oceans, verse 7.8, and God lives there, Is. 40:22). What keeps it there? Why doesn’t it dissipate into space?
I could go on for many more pages of absurdity, but surely I’ve made my point. There is absolutely no compatibility between Genesis 1 and modern cosmology. However, this raises an interesting question about inspiration. Apologists are always telling us to interpret scripture according to historical context, which is good advice. I only wish they followed it more consistently. For instance, if you read cosmologies contemporary with Genesis, you find the features of the world it describes were common: the flat disk of the world with a solid dome overhead and pillars underneath supporting it. Now presumably, in his uninspired moments, Moses had some sort of idea like this, which he learned from his culture, of how the cosmos was constructed. The question is, if God inspired Genesis 1, why didn’t he get the human writer to tell the truth? Obviously, according to our current knowledge, the cosmos is nothing like the one in Genesis. God must not have cared whether Moses wrote the truth, or God did not inspire Genesis 1 at all in any meaningful way that makes it different from books written without divine inspiration.
Well, obviously, Catholics are forbidden to believe the latter, so they have to make the best sense they can of the former: God gave us a false picture – IF we take it literally. That’s why so many interpreters today sensibly go for the allegorical or mythological approach. Of course, if you do that, your whole claim that Genesis somehow anticipated modern cosmology falls apart, because an allegory makes no pretensions of being accurate, That’s the point of allegory: it is not literally true.
So, coincidence? Absolutely, if even that close.
 
I think the answer is “yes” … but, and I hesitate to say this, there are various philosophical meanings attached to “nothingness” … so if we define “nothingness” in the scholastic medieval sense, as “nihil” in the classical sense of the word, then, yes, God is not the source of “nothingness” … however, Heidegger, for example, has used phrases such as “the nothing nothings” (the German probably sounds more profound) … this is a different sense of “nothingness” … in fact, for Heidegger, “being” (Sein) or the “world” or the event of “manifestation” (ereignis) are “no-things”, i.e., not entities, not substances, not things, not beings (seinde) … this opens up an entirely different discussion about God … because God Himself is “no-thing”, not a res, a thing, not a being (over against other beings) …

I apologize for this digression …
Sounds like a rehash of Neoplatonism.
 
Charlemagne wrote: “Actually, science does not favor Einstein’s preference, but certainly says the universe had a distinct beginning. Nor did Einstein ever hold that universes could be born out of each other. That’s a later preference of people who could believe in anything … anything but God!”

Science does not say that God initiated that beginning, for the very good reason that science cannot say anything about the existence of a supernatural, nonmaterial agency. However, how is saying"God started the Big Bang" scientifically helpful? What testable predictions can be made from it? What hypotheses which can be tested by experiment follow from it? All it does is block further exploration which might one day find an answer.

More seriously, what do you know about the motives cosmologists have for believing as they do? How do you know they are interested enough in your God concept even to bother denying it? Why do you want to demonize your opponents? I could say, “obviously because that saves you from having to refute them, which you can’t do.” See, two can play the blame game. It doesn’t help our case any, though. All it does is spread prejudice and hinder understanding. The fact is that you don’t know their motivations, and if there is a god who knows, I doubt that he has told you.
 
I think my remark about Einstein was intended to show how ideology is sometimes at work in science. Einstein was honest enough to admit his mistake about the Big Bang.
Yes it is, but science has built-in safeguards that correct its tendency to adopt ideology. When I see religious people admitting that their ideology is mistaken as often as I see scientists doing it, I will have more respect for their truth claims. But they can’t because religion is not built on fact, but on faith, and no one can refute a determination to believe something no matter what evidence pops up to the contrary.
 
Ahimsa wrote: “Likewise, if we look at Genesis, without imposing later ideas of “creatio ex nihilo” into Genesis, we find that God created the cosmos from pre-existing chaotic forms. That would be consistent with a Big Bang that arose from a previous cosmos, or quantum vacuum even.”

And if we don’t impose later ideas of “creation ex nihilo” on the Elder Edda, we find the idea that the “pre-existing chaotic forms” were taken from the body of the giant Ymir and used to make the world.

Or if we refuse to impose “creation ex nihilo” on the Egyptian Book of the Dead, we find that the Goddess Nut, which means “night”, symbolized the primordial quantum vacuum state, while the sun god RA coupling with her signified the Big Bang, out of which photons emerged 300,000 years later as the universe cooled.

What would be the point?*** Why bother with Genesis at all?*** This nonsense is getting exasperating. Why should we expect Genesis to have any more relevance to modern cosmology than any other equally ignorant ancient myth? IT DOESN’T.
Genesis is relevant. It is Revelation.

Say one is walking down the beach and sees left footprints as far as one can see. What should be the conclusion? A deceiver was a work? There was intention? Luck? A one legged person?

Not having observed the actual process we will try to find the best explanation. So the different camps draw different conclusions. Later we find a box. Inside the box is revealed how the footprints were made and who made them. Now we have a choice - do we stick to our human reasoned conclusions, or do we believe the revelation? Does the revelation then illuminate our human reasoning?
 
This thread is moving so fast, it’s hard to keep up.
Buffalo wrote: " the faith of the atheist is placed in chance, accidents and the like."

First of all, read some atheist literature before proclaiming what they believe. Second, atheists are no more unanimous than Christians in their worldviews. Third, nobody can “have faith in” chance and accident because they are unpredictable. If anything can happen, you can’t have faith that something particular will, or has. You may think atheists are stupid, but none I have read are that stupid. Fourth, being purposeless and being accidental are two different things, and do not logically entail one another, yet many on this thread seem to think that they do. Many scientific processes are exquisitely ordered and rigidly maintained by measurable constants (which, since they are proved, do not require faith, as even the Bible says (1 Cor. 13:9-12, Heb. 11:1). Yet for all their ordered precision, there is no evidence that they were intended to be as they are by some supernatural power. If atheists have faith in anything, it is believing as far as demonstrable evidence proves, and no farther, because doing so produces experienced results, such as the computers we are all using. Try turning on your computer by the power of prayer and see how long you have to wait.
The faith in chance is not what the chance wrought it is that chance is the sole reason it happened. That is the faith of an atheist.
 
Edwest2 wrote: " I want to repair something and I buy a repair manual. I follow the directions and the device works again. So belief and trust do matter in our daily lives."

Of course we do; and you are right that we often judge the validity of our beliefs according to how well they work – with the notable exception of religion. If you follow the directions in your repair manual and the device doesn’t work, you check your procedure to make sure you followed the directions exactly. If it still doesn’t work, you discard the manual.
But where religion is concerned, if you pray and it doesn’t work, you invent some good reason God must have had for saying no. If someone suggests maybe God wasn’t feeling generous that day, you appeal to the doctrine somebody invented centuries ago that God is infinitely good. A tornado flattens your house but leaves the one next door untouched and you thank God that no one was killed. If someone was killed, you thank God that you survived, or you say the deceased “is in a better place” or “God took them home” or some other consolation equally woven out of sorrow and hope without any foundation in fact. The thing you don’t do is throw the manual in the trash, no matter how worthless it is.
No the manual does not go in the trash. It was not written by us. It is written for our welfare and shows us the way to God.

If an elevator came down from heaven right now would you get on it? Why or why not?
 
Charlemagne II wrote: " you’ll never be able to explain why the description of the initial stages of the universe is consistent between Genesis and the Big Bang. Coincidence? "

Nonexistence. Let’s see how consistent it is. I will deal with the story in Genesis 1:1-2:4, since the other doesn’t deal much with cosmology.

According to Genesis 1:1, God created the heavens and the earth “in the beginning.” That can only mean both within a relatively short time. The Big Bang Theory (or BBT) says about 10 billion years. Genesis says six days, each defined by an “evening and morning.” No hint of evenings and mornings in Big Bang theory.
Genesis 1:2 says “the earth was without form and void.” BBT posits nothing at this stage which can be called “earth.” There are not even any atoms heavier than hydrogen and helium. In fact, no atoms yet at all.
Genesis says there were “waters” that the Spirit of God hovered over. What could they refer to? Here we run into the standard problem of all such attempts to reconcile Genesis and science, namely the irresistible impulse to read current knowledge back into the text. We see “water” and realize that less than a trillionth of a second into the BB, there was no water, so immediately we assume the author of Genesis referred to something else, something conveniently formless and chaotic. What justifies us in saying that? How do we know Genesis didn’t mean exactly what we mean: wet, drinkable, etc.? Well, because science says…But wait – the author of Genesis – call him Moses for convenience, though I don’t believe Moses wrote Genesis – knew nothing of modern cosmology. There is no justification for interpreting “waters” here as anything but “waters”, which we know to be two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen, without reading modern knowledge into Genesis. You would have to show that Moses meant something different, which you have no evidence for.
But let’s go on to see more amazing compatibilities." God said “Let there be light,” and there was light." Ah, now we’re getting somewhere! Light, photons, expansion – what could be clearer? Well, what about God dividing the light from the darkness? What could that mean? Photons travel through another medium than the vacuum of space? Remember, only a tiny fraction of radiation comprises the wavelengths within our visual range, which we call “light.” Smaller and larger wavelengths produce X-rays, microwave radiation, gamma rays,ultraviolet, and so on. Are you suggesting that Moses had X-rays and microwaves on his mind? If so, how? And what indicates that in the text? If not, what can he have meant by “light”?
At any rate, nothing in BBT suggests that photons and other particles alternated in some unspecified field in which neither was present with the other, but by regularly timed intervals, as Genesis suggests by “evening and morning.”
Verse 4, God makes a firmament to separate the waters from the waters. Where is that in BBT? Verses 9 and 10 say God gathered the waters under the firmament, which were the same as the waters above it until God separated them, and were the same waters the Holy Spirit hovered over in verse 2, right? God separated those same waters from dry land and – wait a minute! As far as we have got in the Big Bang, less than a second has passed, but in Genesis we have dry land and wet water! Where did we get those? BBT says they are billions of years down the road. First stars have to form, then create heavy elements, then go through their life cycles and explode, strewing those heavy elements into space; then they have to condense into a planet small enough to become dry land rather than a giant gas ball, then cool down enough to produce enough water to gather into oceans.
Note also that this is only the third “day;” God doesn’t make stars, from which all this land came from, until the fourth day. And according to Genesis, the “waters” above the “firmament” are the same substance as those underneath, which is normal sea water; so we have a solid substance separating an ocean underneath it from an ocean above it, sloshing around in space (since “heaven” or “sky” is the space between the two oceans, verse 7.8, and God lives there, Is. 40:22). What keeps it there? Why doesn’t it dissipate into space?
I could go on for many more pages of absurdity, but surely I’ve made my point. There is absolutely no compatibility between Genesis 1 and modern cosmology. However, this raises an interesting question about inspiration. Apologists are always telling us to interpret scripture according to historical context, which is good advice. I only wish they followed it more consistently. For instance, if you read cosmologies contemporary with Genesis, you find the features of the world it describes were common: the flat disk of the world with a solid dome overhead and pillars underneath supporting it. Now presumably, in his uninspired moments, Moses had some sort of idea like this, which he learned from his culture, of how the cosmos was constructed. The question is, if God inspired Genesis 1, why didn’t he get the human writer to tell the truth? Obviously, according to our current knowledge, the cosmos is nothing like the one in Genesis. God must not have cared whether Moses wrote the truth, or God did not inspire Genesis 1 at all in any meaningful way that makes it different from books written without divine inspiration.
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Your whole basis rests on the accuracy of science. As we all know it changes as time goes on. How reliable is it at any one time? How does one measure it? If the neutrino results are real the whole shebang could change tomorrow as it did in the 30’s with the big bang.

The Bible and Tradition are the gold standard. Science changes with time and is subject to flawed human reasoning.
 
What would be the point?*** Why bother with Genesis at all?*** This nonsense is getting exasperating. Why should we expect Genesis to have any more relevance to modern cosmology than any other equally ignorant ancient myth? IT DOESN’T.
Although the Bible, or parts of the Bible, may be outside our experience or field of knowledge, that does not change the Bible from being the truth to being a myth. Not too long ago mankind thought that space travel and walking on the moon were a myth, but mankind’s early thoughts did not change the truth of the matter. And the same goes for the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. Some of the passages of the Bible are hard to understand, continuing perhaps for a season outside our experience or field of knowledge, but those hard to understand passages by no means negates the truth and reality of the Bible.
 
Genesis is relevant. It is Revelation.

Say one is walking down the beach and sees left footprints as far as one can see. What should be the conclusion? A deceiver was a work? There was intention? Luck? A one legged person?

Not having observed the actual process we will try to find the best explanation. So the different camps draw different conclusions. Later we find a box. Inside the box is revealed how the footprints were made and who made them. Now we have a choice - do we stick to our human reasoned conclusions, or do we believe the revelation? Does the revelation then illuminate our human reasoning?
Depends on the explanation. If it says that all sand was only created last Tuesday out of leftover Big Mac wrappers and that God put left footprints in it to show that he only created our left leg, but the right leg was created by the devil, I would have to say no, it does not illuminate anything. If it read, “I am a veteran who lost his right leg in the gulf war; I’m resting under that tree with the lightning-forked trunk right ahead of you since my leg hurts from hopping all this way. If you would go back to my camp and bring my crutches which I left there, I will reward you,” that would make more sense. But Genesis to me reads more like the first message than the second.

“Revelation” has meant all sorts of things to all sorts of people depending on the point they want to make. First we have to determine whether God made a revelation at all (presuming there is a God who wants to); second, if he did, whether the Bible is it. Third, we have to know why it says what it says about God, and in what literary forms, and how to establish what the writers mean by what they say, to know whether or not to trust it to reveal God accurately. In order to establish all this, we have to compare scripture with the world as we know it to see how compatible they are, since the Bible claims that the God whose actions and motives it describes created the universe. Does the world we live in seem the sort of world that the God the Bible describes would have made? And is the Bible’s portrayal of that God internally consistent? That is, do his actions match his attributes? Since the Bible is the book we are investigating, we cannot rely on its authority, or on the authority of any organization claiming to validate or to be based on its authority, to answer these questions without circular reasoning.
After 20 years of reading apologetic and controversial books on both sides of the question, my considered opinion at this point is that the Bible is a book written by human beings without any more divine guidance, inspiration, or authoritative revelation than God gives to any other author or any other book. Therefore, I judge its claims on their merits. Scientifically, it is worthless. Poetically, parts of it are sublime (I especially like Psalms and Isaiah). Morally, it is a mixed bag, with the New Testament better than the Old, but neither anywhere close to perfect.
 
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