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Poof
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LOL!So your mind directly evolved from mindless dust - extremely slowly of course…
That explains a lot.
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grannymh
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You bet your…I am playing with words because that is the best way for people to read actual research.
Interesting news brief in Science magazine sometime back. A published research project was under investigation because of its record keeping. There were at least two opinions. 1. The researcher deliberately “played” with wording so that the conclusion would match his hypothesis. or 2. It was only a matter of sloppy record keeping and the conclusion was valid regardless. A third approach would be to duplicate the research with proper records. Obviously, Science magazine played with its vocabulary so it would not be liable for a false accusation. Plus Science was very careful to present* all* the facts surrounding the research issue.
Those who read actual research papers can recognize the style or tone of the author. It is interesting to read a research paper in which the author is speculating.
Talk about playing with words. Cautionary words are used to cover one’s arse. This, by the way, is valid.
Perhaps a better way to understand “Playing with words, granny” is to realize that it is important to understand the circumstances for a particular use of words and to know the limitations of words.
Science is not a prime time news flash. Research is painfully difficult which is why I sincerely respect scientists who take on the “unknown.” Practically speaking, “playing with words” is an inadequate description. A better description would be testing words. What I am doing is to “test” the wording of research.
I do know that you were referring to what I said about “true belief”. However, I needed to address your “playing with words” first.
Of course, top scientists have true belief in in the possibility of their hypothesis. This is because hypotheses are not formed by throwing darts at a target. Serious preparation is needed even before the hypothesis is formulated. The scientific principle of falsification exists in order to test the original belief of the hypothesis.
What I said and notice the quote marks. "In the science domain, a “true belief” can be based on mere possibility. For fun, look up primordial soup in Wikipedia."
Science consists of humans, wonderful humans, who seek out possibilities. When one reads actual research papers, often one can pick up the motivation for the research. The possibility of discovering something new is often the motivation.
In that respect, I am like a scientist in that I look for the possibility of two, sole founders of humanity.
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Elizabeth502
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The honest (true) scientist understands, and undoubtedly has experienced, the limits of his own genuine knowledge. The true scientist never declares that humanity’s current knowledge is the sum total of all possible knowledge. Otherwise, he is a scientist who operates on prejudice, and thus his “findings” cannot be relied upon. Rather than a scientist, he is a researcher or a student with an agenda, which will poison all his “investigations.”
The honest scientist admits that what is known is possibly less than what is knowable.
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Lui
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The difference between you and me is that I never once insulted you.So your mind directly evolved from mindless dust - extremely slowly of course…
That explains a lot.
Even sadder is that people who consider themselves Catholic laugh at this.LOL!
Real class.
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grannymh
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I cannot speak for all Catholics, especially those who deny Original Sin.Question to all Catholics – why do fossils and old creation myths have such a hold on you guys? The thread is about science and religion yet it seems you can find nothing at all in Christ that’s relevant, instead it’s like you’re part of some new age cult of adam-and-eve-ism. How come Catholicism can’t drag itself away from the first couple of pages of the OT and find something useful to say to the world?
Catholicism teaches that Christ’s presence in the world is a direct result of the events revealed in the first three chapters of Genesis.
Anti-theism is stepping up its assault on Christ, True God and True Man. Thus, if anti-theism can hang on to the coattails of science, effectively it can remove the reason for Christ’s birth. No Christ, no God.
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inocente
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Thanks for clarifying. Sorry to keep banging on about the real world.
Scientists (and for all I know theologians too) play with new hypotheses all the time, and on the rare occasion they make a speculation public they will repeatedly say that it’s just an idea, there’s a long way to go, they’re not sure the evidence stacks up and so on. Excepting, of course, those few famous scientists who trade on their skill as wordsmiths to bolster support for their private beliefs.
The latter is an idealist stance, you could say religious. Religionists tend to go for “true belief”, the idea that there is are Truths standing firm for all eternity. This is diametrically opposed to natural science, where outside of definitions (1 + 1 = 2) and common agreement (we’ve all know the Earth’s a sphere, we’ve seen the photos), the reliance is on disproving bad ideas and on reasonable doubt since 100% proofs are usually impossible.
Putting on my hat as a Baptist engineer, I guess the adam-and-eve debate is a playing out of these two ways of looking at the world, one thinking that an old text holds the key to truth and the other saying not, but my point was that in a real world with many problems to solve, it seems no more or less than a contemporary version of angels on a pinhead, neither use nor ornament.
Put it another way, what is the purpose of Catholicism in the modern scientific age, and is it served by continually debating things which have never put bread in mouths or cured the sick, and which may turn folk away from Christ by making Him seem irrelevant?
Song for you bearing a different message. Almost 13 million hits even though there’s way too much arm waving
. Hillsong, Mighty to Save - youtube.com/watch?v=-08YZF87OBQJesus! Jesus!
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grannymh
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This song was perfect. I played it when I got home after participating in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It joins “Worthy is the Lamb” in my favorites list. Thank you for both.Song for you bearing a different message. Almost 13 million hits even though there’s way too much arm waving
Jesus! Jesus!
What needs to be said right away is – if you are looking for the complete, priority message of Catholicism, you may possibly be in the wrong two forums. I have not been in the other “spirituality” forums so I am not sure what to recommend. All I can say is that there are millions of Catholics out there who are feeding the poor and comforting the sick. My generation and older Catholics were in the front lines in the battle for interracial justice. Catholics continue this work today.
On the other hand, your question “what is the purpose of Catholicism in the modern scientific age” could belong in Apologetics or Philosophy forums. This approach should keep out the distraction of Adam. But I can’t guarentee it. Change scientific to 21st century may help to keep the thread on target.
Catholics are all over the place working with other Christian Faiths in programs like "meals on wheels’, PADS and similar groups which provide shelter for the homeless in winter, food pantries, soup kitchens, ministry in the hospital and Hospice which is what I did until out-of-town family obligations took over. I carried two badges, one from the Catholic Church because I brought Holy Communion to patients and another from the Pastoral Care department of the public (no religious affiliation). local hospital. One Sunday, when I was there with Holy Communion, I literally switched badges when a “code blue” came over the loudspeaker and I responded to the crisis. What I was doing is not unusual because Catholics are serving others in hospitals, airports, and any place where Jesus is needed. Most of these people are not debating Adam and Eve. However, some are having trouble with their faith because of the biological issues regarding Adam and Eve.
What you are seeing here is somewhat like an internal battle for control of the Catholic Church. Some non-theists have joined in. It would be easier for me to give you the exact number of angels which can dance on the head than to explain the complexity of the “modernist” issues. What is important to know is that while people like me are in the fray, the Catholic Church continues to walk in the footsteps of Jesus.
If I were to go deeper into the “sources” for the Adam & Eve conflict found in Catholicism, it would have to be in the Back Fence forum.
Blessings,
granny
The quest for truth is worthy of the adventures of the journey.
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Ahimsa
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That’s what Genesis 2:7 says: “Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground…”
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SGWessells
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This seems to imply that all ingenious and helpful ideas come from God, and that the individuals who invented irrigation and better fishing methods and so forth contributed nothing. Is that what you believe, or am I misreading you? Does God work through secondary causes or not? Doesn’t God promise to reward the good deeds we do in life? If those deeds are not our doing, then he cannot reward us without perverting justice. If they are our doing, then by the same justice, we deserve credit. How is that arrogant, to use the brains God allegedly gave us?
I can’t argue with personal experience. I can’t share it, either. So I cannot credit or accept your conclusion solely on hearsay.
Sorry, but all the power in the world isn’t worth that suffering, especially if others have to pay the price.
Put it on a personal level: would you consent to receive $100,000 a month and a seat in the U.S. Senate at the price of a 12 year old girl being kept in a 10x10 cell, fed only bread and water, and being burned with a hot poker every day for five minutes until she tells everyone how grateful she is for that treatment because it taught her how loving you are and swears to be your servant for life? Would you, honestly? I’ll bet your heart feels, “no way!” Yet that’s how many people think of God, without any apparent consciousness of the dreadful insult they are paying him.
But you do think with the majority, who believe in a loving, all-powerful God even knowing something about the state of the world. I don’t have a comprehensive definition of sanity, but I’m convinced that a sane person doesn’t seriously think that the way to win someone’s heart is to torture them. Many women swear that they love the husbands who beat them; I think those poor women need psychiatric help and a new living arrangement.
I would. But even if he did, so what? That wouldn’t justify the evil that was done, and anyone who thinks it does has lost all moral credibility in my book.
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tonyrey
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It doesn’t say mindless dust magically formed a man all by itself!
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tonyrey
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Don’t you have a sense of humour? You can poke fun at Christianity. e.g.
I find the explanations people come up with quite hilarious. A story can be as far-fetched as possible but there is always some sort of explanation and if one runs out of explanations the word MIRACLE appears
…but you’re not so happy when the tables are turned on your blind faith in the magical power of unaided particles.
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Lui
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Do you actually consider yourself as a good Catholic? Just asking since you seem to have no problem to dish out insults without the slightest bit of regret. You almost seem to be proud of it.Don’t you have a sense of humour? You can poke fun at Christianity but you’re not so happy when the tables are turned on your blind faith in the magical power of unaided particles.
I can tell the difference between humor and just plain insults. You actually answer with a further insult: “you’re not so happy when the tables are turned on your blind faith in the magical power of unaided particles”.
Maybe you can point out in my quote where I personally attacked you?
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Lui
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No, I don’t think I saw it on TV because I still remember my specific thoughts. Anyway, I don’t think that is the truth. It was just an example of numerous possibilities. I am not a person who now or ever was involved in all this alien stuff. I hate, not just dislike, all Star Wars and Star Trek movies. Not my cup of tea. I roll my eyes when I hear about all these alien theories.Maybe it was something you saw on TV.
Seriously, why do so many people look for life on other planets? If the universe has so many “m” class planets, what different does it make if all we know about them is what our science tells us, which is nothing.
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Lui
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What exactly ARE my beliefs? I never said I was an atheist. Also there are many Catholics, including John Paul II, who believe in evolution.
This is a definite attack on my intelligence, indicating that my “lack of intelligence” is the result of life coming from dust:
Maybe you can mention it at your next confession and all is forgiven so no need to apologize to MESo your mind directly evolved from mindless dust - extremely slowly of course…
That explains a lot.
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tonyrey
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You have stated that it’s all “a matter of speculation” and you have been persistently ridiculing the Bible - which hardly indicates that you support John Paul II…
You are forgetting that all our minds are in the same boat. If they have evolved directly from unaided mindless dust what are they worth?That explains a lot.
My remarks were directed at your statements - in which there was no reference to God:
You are assuming that I **have **sinned against you… I leave that for others to decide…
You have also ignored the fact that you have poked fun at Christianity:
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Lui
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Is not believing in the truth of the Bible and the belief it was written by various unknown authors and not by God the same as ridiculing ?
Where did I state we have evolved directly from unaided mindless dust? Just because I didn’t say that evolution is the product of the Christian God? There are numerous other possibilities who or what designed the Universe. You’re ASSUMING that I believe the Universe it created by chance. Maybe you should stop assuming
Since I don’t believe sin exists, I didn’t assume that you sinned against me. I pointed out that you personally insulted me and ironically said you have the possibility to confess it if you feel sorry but I ASSUME that you don’t have the slightest bit of guilty feeling. You’re probably actually quite proud of yourself for being so witty
.I was actually poking fun at people’s explanations. Since many Catholics have different views I’m not sure that I was poking fun at Christianity.
I often said that I respect everybody’s faith but only up to the point that those people respect the faith of others which often they don’t.
It’s funny that you consider my “faith” as blind but you’re saying I’m the one who is poking fun at Christianity. You also seem to be having arguments with any person who has the slightest doubts that Christianity is true which is why you have almost ten times the amount of posts I do even though I’ve been a member much longer.
Anyway, no use in arguing anymore. If personal insults is your way of debating I can’t do anything about it:shrug: Don’t feel bad though. Personal insults is the way of many Catholics here, even against people who are Catholic themselves
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tonyrey
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That seems to confirm your scepticism regarding God and religion…
You are assuming the majority of my posts are directed at non-Christians - and that I’m not far more interested in philosophy than you are.
BTW The number of posts is not the only consideration. The length of many of my posts is another factor to be taken into account.
You single out Catholics as if they are the worst offenders!Personal insults is the way of many Catholics here, even against people who are Catholic themselves
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Lui
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Do all religions believe in the concept of sin that you need to confess?..I don’t think so.
True but I noticed that you argued with a lot of non-Catholics but you’re right, it’s just an assumption.
No, because the ones who aren’t like that(which is probably the majority) aren’t noticed. I only notice the ones who tend to insult people personally. What I did notice though is that the personal insults always seems to come from these specific Catholics and not from the non-Catholic people in the various debates.You single out Catholics as if they are the worst offenders!
Even StAnastasia is sometimes attacked in personal ways although she regards herself as Catholic and her faith has been questioned more than once.
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