Science & Religion

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It is more in keeping with Catholic doctrine to believe God inspired a single couple and gave them the power to distinguish and choose between doing what is right or wrong. Otherwise there must have been complete continuity between their non-human parents and therefore there cannot be any essential difference between human beings and animals.
If the shoe fits…
Science in this day and age, unlike, say, the 15th century, is in no way obligated to pay any attention to Catholic doctrine. In fact, it cannot and remain faithful to its own essential nature, which is to follow the evidence wherever it leads, no matter what religion stands in the way.
From the scientific point of view free will infringes the law of conservation of energy…
How?
 
I believe God called the universe into existence. Whether this creatio ex nihilio occurred 13.7 billion years ago or earlier, or whether we need to look to preconditions of the Big Bang is immaterial. However it came about, creation is ontologically dependent upon the God who created it.
Thank you for your detailed exposition of your beliefs - with which I largely agree. My questions are not intended to attack but clarify your position. 🙂
I believe that God worked through the secondary causes of astronomical chance and of evolution by natural selection to call into being a moral and spiritual response to God’s creative generosity.
Do you believe God has never intervened in the process of human development?
On our planet the being that evolved to offer this moral and spiritual response was a mammal, in particular a primate. Perhaps elsewhere in the universe – where conditions and contingencies are different – God called forth some other type of being, perhaps a large-brained marsupial or a bipedal reptile. As the “imago Dei” humans do not reflect a particular physiognomy of God, but rather attributes such as moral and spiritual awareness and the possibility of living in graced love.
Are these attributes bestowed solely by physical means?
From the theological perspective, humans as *imago Dei *embody the moral and spiritual response called forth by God from creation. The Incarnation is the supreme terrestrial expression of this response: in the person of Jesus, God assumed the quarks of the Big Bang, the dust of supernovae explosions, the organic molecules of dinosaurs and mammals, and the long history of the primate genome. In an evolutionary paraphrase of St. Gregory of Nazianzus, God assumes creation by becoming incarnate at its heart in a human person, Jesus Christ. Karl Rahner noted the significance of this affirmation:
The point at which God in a final self-communication irrevocably and definitively lays hold on the totality of the reality created by him is characterized not as spirit but as flesh. It is this which authorizes the Christian to integrate the history of salvation into the history of the cosmos.
Is God’s self-communication restricted to the Incarnation? Or does it occur in other ways?
Indeed, in Catholic perspective creation is necessarily the domain of God’s redemptive work, capable of bearing the incarnation and of being transfigured in turn by that creation. Jesus unites in his person the Godhead and the evolutionary history of the cosmos.
Does this apply to beings throughout the entire universe?
 
when did human evolution happen? Is human evolution confined to the past? Does human evolution continue to happen? Can science, through drugs, cause human evolution to happen in specific areas of the genome?
Over about 3 billion years.
No.
Yes, if changes in the environment or mutations require it.
It seems likely, but I can’t say for sure. I would proceed with caution there, however; we have already messed up several ecosystems through well-intentioned but short-sighted meddling.
 
As far as science is concerned the supernatural doesn’t even exist! **
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What’s the alternative? What experimental procedure would you suggest to confirm the existence of angels? How much do they weigh? How tall are they? How great a ratio of wing size to body mass do they need to sustain flight? What instruments do you have to measure these and other features? Why should science as such (as opposed to scientists, many of whom are religious) recognize something outside its range?
 
It is more in keeping with Catholic doctrine to believe God inspired a single couple and gave them the power to distinguish and choose between doing what is right or wrong. Otherwise there must have been complete continuity between their non-human parents and therefore there cannot be any essential difference between human beings and animals.
Is science a law unto itself regardless of any other considerations?
In fact, it cannot and remain faithful to its own essential nature, which is to follow the evidence wherever it leads, no matter what religion stands in the way.
How far does scientific evidence lead?
From the scientific point of view free will infringes the law of conservation of energy…
How?

From the scientific point of view all choices and decisions have physical causes.
 
What’s the alternative? What experimental procedure would you suggest to confirm the existence of angels? How much do they weigh? How tall are they? How great a ratio of wing size to body mass do they need to sustain flight? What instruments do you have to measure these and other features? Why should science as such (as opposed to scientists, many of whom are religious) recognize something outside its range?
What experimental procedure would you suggest to confirm the existence of your thoughts, beliefs, choices, decisions, principles, values and plans? Or those of other beings? How much do they weigh? What instruments do you have to measure these and other features?

Why should your mind (as opposed to other minds, religious or not) recognize something outside its range?
 
When one trains one’s eye to see science from the 21st century position, one should ask more scientific questions about this “camp” theory of “human evolution didn’t happen.” Please refer back to posts 1567 and 1571 for initial suggestions. Thank you.

When one reads actual science research, one finds different meanings for the term human; therefore,
one needs to know more precise qualifying information. For example. The change in the pelvic area which made it possible for ancient beings to walk upright would be considered evolution. The key question is-- did this evolution event occur before the rational human being or after the rational human being? Rational is the operative word since current human beings are rational. Did the chance in scull size which would be considered evolution occur as a result of a human being having the tools of reason or did it lead to the future possibility of a human being having the tools of reason?

The above questions are only the start for an intelligent inquiry into pre-history events.
In the 21st century, it is not reasonable to lump all scientific discoveries into a “camp” theory of either yes or no.

One should use the tools of investigative journalism. This means that one needs to find the answers to – who? how? what? when? where? why? when it comes to your human nature which is assumed to be the same as mine. .

However, who really knows, since maybe you descended from one section of 10,000 mating pairs and I descended from another section of 10,000 mating pairs.
If your last sentence was true, it wouldn’t mean you belonged to a different species. We are talking about the ancestry of homo sapiens; whether they number two or two thousand, there is only one species homo sapiens.

The change in the pelvic area you mention also causes the pain women experience in childbirth, which is a punishment for Eve’s sin in the Eden story; so did Eve not walk upright until she ate the apple? 😃

Interesting question about skull size, though. Right now it looks like a chicken-or-egg question to me. Maybe they happened in simultaneous sequence: slightly bigger skull and brain gave an advantage which made room for more growth. I think that’s whjat the fossil record indicates, although brain size and intelligence do not necessarily equate. Since women have smaller brains than men as a rule, I think you’ll agre with that last statement anyway ;).
 
when did human evolution happen? Is human evolution confined to the past? Does human evolution continue to happen? Can science, through drugs, cause human evolution to happen in specific areas of the genome?
That suggests you believe blind processes are superior to, and more powerful than, intelligence. Is that correct?
 
Is science a law unto itself regardless of any other considerations?
No. Only considerations to which the scientific method can apply. Morality gan be iffy. Does evolution create or affect it, and if so, how? Science made the atom bomb possible, but couldn’t tell us whether we ought to use it. If there were no more questions to answer, how dull the world would be!
How far does scientific evidence lead?
As far as it can.
From the scientific point of view all choices and decisions have physical causes.
Why does the fact that something has a physical cause “infringe the law of conservation of energy”? The energy used in making a decision is minimal, nor is it lost; it changes from one form to another. Neurons in the part of the brain governing decisions, plus whatever other parts are involved (e.g. fight or flight reflex) send signals to the relevant muscles which perform their task. How does that infringe the conservation law while breathing, which is an autonomic function independent of will, yet using a similar chemical mechanism, does not?
 
Or in the name of a Godless ideology…

Correct.
What evidence is there that human beings are animals in every significant respect
I can’t answer until I have a list of every significant respect you’re talking about. But if you mean things like emotion, reasoning, language, use of tools, other animals use less developed versions of all these. We differ from them in degree, but not in essential animality (if I may coin a word).
 
Is science a law unto itself regardless of any other considerations?
You are assuming morality is significant. Suppose it is simply a set of human conventions…
How far does scientific evidence lead?
As far as it can.

Which is uninformative and therefore misleading. How far can one walk in the dark?
From the scientific point of view all choices and decisions have physical causes.
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       Why does the fact that something has a physical cause "infringe  the law of conservation of energy"? The energy used in making a decision  is minimal, nor is it lost; it changes from one form to another.

Where is the energy used in making a decision located? Can you p(name removed by moderator)oint it?
Neurons in the part of the brain governing decisions, plus whatever other parts are involved (e.g. fight or flight reflex) send signals to the relevant muscles which perform their task. How does that infringe the conservation law while breathing, which is an autonomic function independent of will, yet using a similar chemical mechanism, does not?
Is the will an autonomic function? If not why not?
 
What experimental procedure would you suggest to confirm the existence of your thoughts, beliefs, choices, decisions, principles, values and plans? Or those of other beings? How much do they weigh? What instruments do you have to measure these and other features?

Why should your mind (as opposed to other minds, religious or not) recognize something outside its range?
fMRI procedures have established the parts of the brain where activity is associated with many of the functions you mention. I have no data concerning their weight; the brain weighs about two pounds, I believe. I’m not sure phenomena like neurotransmission have measurable weight; the pull of gravity on them is probably too insignificant to measure with current instruments.

I hope my mind will recognize something outside its range every day. How else will I learn?
Just about everything I’ve posted on this thread was outside the range of my mind about three years ago.
 
I can’t answer until I have a list of every significant respect you’re talking about. But if you mean things like emotion, reasoning, language, use of tools, other animals use less developed versions of all these. We differ from them in degree, but not in essential animality (if I may coin a word).
You don’t have to answer because if we are essentially animals there is nothing to distinguish us from other species so that it does not make sense to claim we have free will, moral responsibility, human rights or any more significance than the insects we crush beneath our feet…
 
That suggests you believe blind processes are superior to, and more powerful than, intelligence. Is that correct?
Not sure what you mean by “blind processes”, or what evidence shows them to be blind, and in what sense. It seems to me that you are using words loaded with emotional connotations (blind=bad, intelligence=good) to establish your point on a kind of unstated, emotional level without having to prove it rationally.
That being said, “blind processes” are superior to intelligence in some ways, but not in others; it depends on what results you’re talking about. General statements applicable to all situations are rather rare, though you seem particularly attached to them.
 
**What experimental procedure would you suggest to confirm the existence of your thoughts, beliefs, choices, decisions, principles, values and plans? Or those of other beings? How much do they weigh? What instruments do you have to measure these and other features?
“associated with” and “many” are the basis of your conclusion that all mental activity originates in the brain? Hardly scientific!
I have no data concerning their weight; the brain weighs about two pounds, I believe. I’m not sure phenomena like neurotransmission have measurable weight; the pull of gravity on them is probably too insignificant to measure with current instruments.
These considerations are insignificant until you produce more evidence for your hypothesis…
I hope my mind will recognize something outside its range every day. How else will I learn?
Just about everything I’ve posted on this thread was outside the range of my mind about three years ago…
Why not “outside the range of my brain”? 🙂
 
You are assuming morality is significant. Suppose it is simply a set of human conventions…
How would that make it insignificant? If you ignore the traffic laws on the grounds that they are merely human conventions, not God’s eternal decrees, you will still have to pay the penalty.
Which is uninformative and therefore misleading. How far can one walk in the dark?
How informative can one be in answering a question like, “How far does scientific evidence lead”? It is stopped by the limits of human intelligence and by assuming divine causes by faith which can neither be investigated not falsified. Aside from those barriers, it can go pretty far. Look how far it has gotten us in the last hundred years.
As for walking in the dark, you tell me; you’re the one who walks by faith and not by sight, and sees through a glass, darkly.
 
You don’t have to answer because if we are essentially animals there is nothing to distinguish us from other species so that it does not make sense to claim we have free will, moral responsibility, human rights or any more significance than the insects we crush beneath our feet…
That’s merely your assumption (which perhaps accounts for your hostility). Do chimpanzees have no free will? Is everything they do dictated by instinct over which they have no control? Why would our status as animals deprive us of rights?
As for significance, speak for yourself. I don’t regard other people as no more significant than insects, and my reasons are good enough for me: people have feelings and needs just as I do, and they hurt just as mine do; since I like to be free to speak my mind, keep my life and property intact, and socialize with others, I accord them the same privilege, and support the justice system which protects me from those who don’t. If that isn’t good enough for you, I’m glad you have religion to civilize you :).
 
“associated with” and “many” are the basis of your conclusion that all mental activity originates in the brain? Hardly scientific!
It’s more scientific evidence than you have for the soul.
These considerations are insignificant until you produce more evidence for your hypothesis…
“My” hypothesis, or the hypothesis you have invented for me because it’s easier to mock?
Why not “outside the range of my brain”?
I don’t think my muscles or liver had anything to do with it…😃
 
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