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rinnie
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Of course creation is still in progress. It will be until the end of age. But no matter what is or is not happening outside of our existance etc, has no existance apart from God. He knows all, he creates all.
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rinnie
Guest
Exactly! So what did God do? He created animals, and then Women. But its like you seem to forget that GOD said its not good for Man to be alone. ANd Man was NEVER alone. He began to created animals and women right away.
You seem to be saying because God created Man and Women in that order he somehow made a mistake or something. If this is not what you are saying I apologize.
God created Man first, and then said its not good to have MAN alone so he immediately created women. Its not like Man was alone for many years and God saw that he needed a friend or something. God created women right away.
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StAnastasia
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I did not imply that something can have existence (note spelling) outside of God. I merely meant to point out that creation – in our universe, at least – was going on for 13.7 billion years before Adam and Eve appeared on the scene.
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Ahimsa
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Hey, I’m just reporting what the Bible says.
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rossum
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I am not talking about when God was finished. I am talking about before God was finished. Before Eve.
Please indicate where in Genesis the pre-Fall world is described as “perfect”. I can see “very good” in there but I cannot see “perfect”. The two are not the same: 99% is a very good score, but it is not perfect.
Then man was not “perfect” was he. But man is part of God’s creation. Yet another reason not to describe Creation as “perfect”. And where does the talking serpent fit in, was that “perfect”? It was there before the Fall.
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tonyrey
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Wise words!
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Hail_Linus
Guest
In his later years, Albert Einstein came to realize that Science can only teach us how facts relate to each other.
He also said “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.”
He also said the world needs Judeo-Christian values. Although he was not Chrisitian, Albert Einstein did attend Catholic School as a boy in Austria. He Knew the New Testament quite well. He said he was “Enthralled by the Nazarene”.
And now I will throw in some G.K. Chesterton to show what Science and the Catholic have uniquely in common. This is from “The Ball and the Cross”:
“But there is one thing Free-thought can never be by any possibility-- Free-thought can never be progressive. It can never be progressive because it will accept nothing from the past; it begins every time again from the beginning; and it goes every time in a different direction. All the rational philosophers have gone along different roads, so it is impossible to say which has gone farthest. Who can discuss whether Emerson was a better optimist than Schopenhauer was pessimist? It is like asking if this corn is as yellow as that hill is steep. No; there are only two things that really progress; and they both accept accumulations of authority. They may be progressing uphill and down; they may be growing steadily better or steadily worse; but they have steadily increased in certain definable matters; they have steadily advanced in a certain definable direction; they are the only two things, it seems, that ever can progress. The first is strictly physical science. The second is the Catholic Church.”
He also said “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.”
He also said the world needs Judeo-Christian values. Although he was not Chrisitian, Albert Einstein did attend Catholic School as a boy in Austria. He Knew the New Testament quite well. He said he was “Enthralled by the Nazarene”.
And now I will throw in some G.K. Chesterton to show what Science and the Catholic have uniquely in common. This is from “The Ball and the Cross”:
“But there is one thing Free-thought can never be by any possibility-- Free-thought can never be progressive. It can never be progressive because it will accept nothing from the past; it begins every time again from the beginning; and it goes every time in a different direction. All the rational philosophers have gone along different roads, so it is impossible to say which has gone farthest. Who can discuss whether Emerson was a better optimist than Schopenhauer was pessimist? It is like asking if this corn is as yellow as that hill is steep. No; there are only two things that really progress; and they both accept accumulations of authority. They may be progressing uphill and down; they may be growing steadily better or steadily worse; but they have steadily increased in certain definable matters; they have steadily advanced in a certain definable direction; they are the only two things, it seems, that ever can progress. The first is strictly physical science. The second is the Catholic Church.”
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SGWessells
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In the context of the quote, the indisputable points are that God created the universe from nothing, and directly created the human soul.
As for what the soul is, I assume it involves such elements of the human person as intellect, memory, will, and emotion. If it does not involve these things, then whatever survives after death, it is not the individual person. If it does, then they are influenced by material, evolved things such as genes, as I said, which makes it unlikely that evolution has nothing to do with its makeup, operation, and decisions…
As for “spirit”, I leave that to the theologians to decide.
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rinnie
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Sure he was, before he gave into sin
. Paradise is perfect, bliss. etc. The world was perfect because it was free from sin. Rather the devil was there or not has nothing to do with it. Because if that is so, then you are saying that if someone can be tempted to sin, they will sin right?And yes the devil is perfect, perfectly evil
Also 99% is a good score. 100% is Very good!!
But what I am saying is everything God created was for the GOOD of Man not bad. It was Man who took what God created FOR good and made it bad, It did not have to be that way. But God gave us free will to do good or bad. We choose.
Just like a glass of wine is good for you but many bottles is bad. Is that God’s fault? No. Its mans. That is how the world was created all for our good. We choose to continue to live right and good or wrong and bad. its not the fault of God.
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buffalo
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Huh? A designed path taken on its way to fulfillment could be good. That same house needs a foundation and walls to support it. Are you asking for a roof that just hangs there?
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rossum
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No. I am talking about a house without a roof. A house without a roof is in a “not good” state. Once the roof is on it can be in a “very good” state.
We cannot assume that what is true of the end point of a process is the same as the mid-point of the same process. Indeed, if the process actually does anything at all then the mid-point must be different from the end point.
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buffalo
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I disagree. It is the end product purpose that is important.
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rinnie
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Not really, because you could have someone who put on a roof and did a bad job. But we could go on with this forever.
But my point is God is perfect and he indeed created a perfect world. And the world WAS perfect until sin entered into it.
Sin was not created by God. God hates sin. God forbids us to sin. But he also forgives our sin. But to get to God you cannot have sin.
In the end of time when God comes back he will create a NEW heaven and a NEW earth. But the difference in this world is we will all be Perfected in Christ. We will have chosen good over bad.WE will get it right next time, not God. God always gets it right.
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rossum
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At no point does Genesis describe the pre-Fall world as “perfect”. It does use both “very good” and “not good”, but not “perfect”. You are adding a word to the Bible.
The talking serpent was present before the Fall. How does that fit into the world you describe?
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SGWessells
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Why is everyone writing as though the Bible says anything at all relevant to how life on earth came to be? As if God really said anything about how good it was, or as if there really was a talking serpent? It’s like arguing about whether Chicken Little was right to say the sky was falling, and debating the atmospheric conditions that might have made it fall, or whether Odin, Vili and Ve used axes or chainsaws when they cut up the giant Ymir to make the earth out of his body.
Life on earth evolved when the common ancestor of all living beings began to split and replicate itself, genetic mutation changed physical characteristics, and natural selection determined which forms survived because they were better equipped to do so. That is what the genetic evidence says. And the fossil record. And molecular biology. And embryology. And geographical distribution of lifeforms. And so on. Since the Bible knows nothing about all this, it is irrelevant to demonstrable reality. So join us out here in the real world. It isn’t 100 % perfect, but it’s all we’ve got.
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rinnie
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It does not use the exact word perfect the word is sinless. When there is no sin in the world thats when the world is perfect.
Just like our own self today. When we have alot of sin in our life we are very angry, sad, stressed etc. Or when we are at the receiving end of others sin.
But when we have a clear conscience free from sin, hate, jealousy we have a pretty much a perfect world right inside our mind.
While we cannot control the world around us, we can control the way we choose to treat others and when we treat others with respect and love we can live a pretty good live in ourself.
Saying the devil making the world (name removed by moderator)erfect is like saying you have no control over yourself. That is like saying Eve did not choose to eat the apple the devil shoved it down her throat. But we both know she sinned by her own free will.
Jesus came to this world and he stated this was NOT his world, he said if it was his world his people would have not killed him.
The reason Adam and Eve were in the perfect world is because they had God to talk to. He provided everything they needed. The labor was no hard like this world.
You know how there is sone work you actually enjoy. Sometimes labor and work is not a chore you actually enjoy doing it. That was what things were like before the fall.
There was no death in the world before the fall, no pain, no anger. Only Love. This world is still a result of the fallen world. And it keeps getting worse, Because people like Eve still keeping trying to play God. They want his power, they think they can do better, they still turn to the devil.
Which is kind of what this thread is about. Science is fine, on sone things. But when science becomes a god to people, a replacement for the true God we keep getting messed up.
Look how college kids were selling sperm to make children for the people who could not have children. What happens in 20 years when sisters marry brothers etc. God did not plan that Man did.
Look a pills to kill a child in the womb, that was not what God invented science for, to break his commands.
Just like a car was invented to get us around and make life easier, not to mow someone over, Things like that.
But the reason paradise was perfect was because God had a relationship with Adam and Eve they could talk to him. hear his voice, and they had it made. It will happen again in the next world we will once again get to have that relationship with God as the Son as he came to this world. And once again it will be perfect, and there will be no death, no suffering, no hard labor. Only love, compassion truth and no sin.
Its free from SIN that makes the world perfect.
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Ahimsa
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So, the pre-Eve state of Adam was perfect, but “not good”?
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rinnie
Guest
Why does very good and perfect have such different meaning for you. Do you know what sinless means? Would you not agree a world without sin is perfect? Would you not agree a world in which you can speak to God is not perfect? Would you not agree a world where there is no such thing as suffereing, death, starvation anger hate only love and everything being provided for one as NOT PERFECT?
Would you not agree that a world where a little child plays in a cobras den not a perfect world? The beginning of the world was just as the new heaven and the new earth was.
God will destroy this world and make a new world like it once was. Read Isiah 11. It will show you the there shallbe NO HARM no RUIN on my Holy Mountain for the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as water covers the sea.
That is as the world once was. That is a sinless world do you not agree? Since you seem to feel that the world was not perfect could you show me where there was suffering, death, anger, sadness, any negative emotion before the fall? SHow me ONE thing that was (name removed by moderator)erfect in the world before the fall.
And the devil had no power in the pre-fall. He could only temp. If he had power he would have free will over someone he had no such thing, He was the lowest creature in the world. God gave MAN the power over the creatures not vice-versa. Just like today, you can give up your free will and still give in to the devil, or you can listen to God.
Now its your turn to show me, how a world without sin, death suffering and God in it is not perfect. Please show me what is missing? When you have God the Father to ask for anything and him give you what you need? Its your turn to show me where the world God created was IN-Perfect.
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Ahimsa
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Genesis 2:18 (“The LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.””) says that the pre-Eve state of Adam was “not good”.
I have no problem if you want to define “perfection” to include things that are “not good”. It would just be a very interesting sort of definition.
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rinnie
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Um read what you just wrote. God said it is not good for the man to be alone, I will make a helper suitable for him. Where was Man ever alone. You are acting as if Adam was alone for some extended period of time or something. According to the word of God, it was GOD who said he did not want man to be alone. Not vice-versa.
Show me where Adam was ever unhappy?
Show me where Adam ever felt loneliness?But back to the question at hand. Paradise is the key word here.
Paradise is positive, harmonious timeless, A counter-image of the MISERIES of human civilization. Where there is only PEACE, HAPPINESS a place of perfect contentment.
Now its your turn, show me where paradise is not a perfect enviroment.
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