Science & Religion

[tonyrey]

But you agree that anyone who is eagerly looking forward to - or couldn’t care less about - disappearing forever is abnormal…

Why should that influence you?

I prefer “peculiar” or “unusual” to abnormal though.I’m certainly a minority so I’m not going to disagree with you there. I prefer “peculiar” or “unusual” to abnormal though.

I agree with you. I felt that “abnormal” isn’t the right word.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

SGW

Just because you know nothing of the nature of, and evidence for, evolution and cosmology (as is evident from your comments) doesn’t mean the rest of us are equally self-blinded, nor that we have “nothing to look back to, into or forward to”; we have lives like yours, full of people we love and who love us, exciting things to learn and teach, pleasures and joys to match our sorrows. Have you always basked in the bliss of being Catholic? Have you ever been an atheist? If not, you know nothing about how it feels, and teach us nothing but your own ignorance.

Your usual arrogance, I see.

I was an atheist for about a quarter century. The most miserable part of my life. Atheism does not offer hope. It offers despair only. Thanks for nothing(ness)!

**At least you recognize that evolution “has no moral significance” instead of being the hotbed of eugenics and Nazism. But while you’re reading science, read some Church history. **

I’ve read quite a bit of Church history. Unlike yourself, I don’t get my Church history from atheist websites.

That Christians have not always been Christlike is obvious. That is no argument against Christianity, but rather an indication that Christianity was repudiated when it was most needed.

That many millions of Christians have lived Christlike and holy lives you apparently haven’t the foggiest notion. At least many strive to be holy. I never knew an atheist who bothered to, including myself.

 

[tonyrey]

At least many strive to be holy. I never knew an atheist who bothered to, including myself.

I have known atheists who strive to help others but not to be holy because that is not a concept which fits into their scheme of things.

 

[Lui]

I have known atheists who strive to help others but not to be holy because that is not a concept which fits into their scheme of things.

Why should an atheist strive a “holy” life if he doesn’t believe in the concept of sin? If a Catholic and an atheist live both morally good lives, they live equally good from the atheist perspective. If the atheist masturbates because he doesn’t consider that a sin, he won’t live as “holy” as the Catholic who lives chaste, but only from the Catholic perspective. Big deal. It doesn’t make the Catholic one bit better.
Catholics are allowed to drink alcohol while Muslims are not. Is the Muslim holier than the Catholic because he lives abstinent? No because for a Catholic it is not a sin to drink alcohol.

Other religions strive holiness by living as vegetarians or standing on one foot their whole life. I’ve seen practices from people in India who try to achieve holiness which just seems absurd to anyone not involved with their religion. That all has no meaning if you don’t believe in the holy practices of the specific religion.

 

[tonyrey]

Why should an atheist strive a “holy” life if he doesn’t believe in the concept of sin? If a Catholic and an atheist live both morally good lives, they live equally good from the atheist perspective.

That is the point I am making!

If the atheist masturbates because he doesn’t consider that a sin, he won’t live as “holy” as the Catholic who lives chaste, but only from the Catholic perspective. Big deal. It doesn’t make the Catholic one bit better.

If an atheist tells lies because he doesn’t consider it a sin it will still have a harmful effect on himself, on others and ultimately on his relations with others.

Catholics are allowed to drink alcohol while Muslims are not. Is the Muslim holier than the Catholic because he lives abstinent? No because for a Catholic it is not a sin to drink alcohol.

It depends on how much and what effect it has!

 

[Lui]

If an atheist tells lies because he doesn’t consider it a sin it will still have a harmful effect on himself, on others and ultimately on his relations with others.

I don’t get this point. You mean an atheist who says he doesn’t consider masturbating or for example having sex without being married wrong, is lying or what did you mean?

It depends on how much and what effect it has!

For a Muslim even the small amount a Catholic priest drinks during Mass would be considered unholy.

 

[buffalo]

Why should an atheist strive a “holy” life if he doesn’t believe in the concept of sin? If a Catholic and an atheist live both morally good lives, they live equally good from the atheist perspective. If the atheist masturbates because he doesn’t consider that a sin, he won’t live as “holy” as the Catholic who lives chaste, but only from the Catholic perspective. Big deal. It doesn’t make the Catholic one bit better.
Catholics are allowed to drink alcohol while Muslims are not. Is the Muslim holier than the Catholic because he lives abstinent? No because for a Catholic it is not a sin to drink alcohol.

Other religions strive holiness by living as vegetarians or standing on one foot their whole life. I’ve seen practices from people in India who try to achieve holiness which just seems absurd to anyone not involved with their religion. That all has no meaning if you don’t believe in the holy practices of the specific religion.

What does it mean for a Catholic to be holy?

 

[Lui]

What does it mean for a Catholic to be holy?

I would guess to live as sinless as possible. Of course that only refers to sins according to Catholic Church teachings. Eating pork is not a sin for Catholics, so that wouldn’t be a problem.
Other aspects might be for example being humble, compassionate and considerate of others, loving, and forgiving but those are attributes that atheists can have too.

 

[buffalo]

I would guess to live as sinless as possible. Of course that only refers to sins according to Catholic Church teachings. Eating pork is not a sin for Catholics, so that wouldn’t be a problem.

“Holiness does not consist in not making mistakes or never sinning. Holiness grows with capacity for conversion, repentance, willingness to begin again, and above all with the capacity for reconciliation and forgiveness.” – Cardinal Ratzinger

“True holiness does not mean a flight from the world; rather, it lies in the effort to incarnate the Gospel in everyday life, in the family, at school and at work, and in social and political involvement.” --Pope JPII

Do you regard Jesus as a role model?

 

[tonyrey]

*If an atheist tells lies because he doesn’t consider it a sin it will still have a harmful effect on himself, on others and ultimately on his relations with others. *

I brought up lying because it is more clear-cut example of the **effects **of a moral failure on a person even when s/he is unaware that it is a moral failure.

It depends on how much and what effect it has!

For a Muslim even the small amount a Catholic priest drinks during Mass would be considered unholy.

That is a religious belief for which there is no secular justification - unlike telling lies.

 

[Lui]

“Holiness does not consist in not making mistakes or never sinning. Holiness grows with capacity for conversion, repentance, willingness to begin again, and above all with the capacity for reconciliation and forgiveness.” – Cardinal Ratzinger

“True holiness does not mean a flight from the world; rather, it lies in the effort to incarnate the Gospel in everyday life, in the family, at school and at work, and in social and political involvement.” --Pope JPII

You probably wrote this before I added the second sentence:
“Other aspects might be for example being humble, compassionate and considerate of others, loving, and forgiving but those are attributes that atheists can have too.”
In other words only the first part of my statement would set a “holy” Catholic apart from an atheist who lives a good life and that’s only because the atheist wouldn’t consider certain things like masturbation as a sin. Obviously both would consider murder, theft, rape, violence(to name a few) morally wrong.
buffalo;8494573:

Do you regard Jesus as a role model?

Not specifically. I consider many teachings written in the Gospels as exceptional good values while others I don’t. For example I don’t regard things like having sex without being married as morally wrong. Those values were more important 2000 years ago for various reasons from my perspective.

 

[Lui]

I brought up lying because it is more clear-cut example of the **effects **of a moral failure on a person even when s/he is unaware that it is a moral failure.

Ah, ok, You meant that the act of lying is morally wrong. That is not an exclusive Catholic thing though. An atheist can think that lying is morally wrong too because, like you said, it can hurt a person, lead to all sorts of damaging results.
I lived in South America for many years. The people of the country I lived in seemed to have the tendency to to lie a lot which my European, American and Canadian friends also mentioned which we had my difficulties with coming from a different culture so I know what effects even small lies can have.

 

[buffalo]

You probably wrote this before I added the second sentence:
“Other aspects might be for example being humble, compassionate and considerate of others, loving, and forgiving but those are attributes that atheists can have too.”
In other words only the first part of my statement would set a “holy” Catholic apart from an atheist who lives a good life and that’s only because the atheist wouldn’t consider certain things like masturbation as a sin. Obviously both would consider murder, theft, rape, violence(to name a few) morally wrong.

Not specifically. I consider many teachings written in the Gospels as exceptional good values while others I don’t. For example I don’t regard things like having sex without being married as morally wrong. Those values were more important 2000 years ago for various reasons from my perspective.

Sexual license is a big reason people are not Catholic.

Do you consider chastity in marriage as being good?

Do you believe commandments 4-10 are good?

 

[Lui]

Sexual license is a big reason people are not Catholic.

Well, that’s a matter of dispute. If a person does not believe Jesus is God or there is no God that would be greater reason not to be Catholic or Christian. I have a work colleague who is a passionate atheist. He lives chaste and never had sex(probably not voluntary though). He’s also a vegetarian, doesn’t smoke or drink alcohol.

Do you consider chastity in marriage as being good?

If you’re asking if I think that a married person shouldn’t commit adultery, then yes. I think the same values exist if a couple is committed to each other without being married. Do I think that having sex without being married as morally wrong? Answer: no. Do I consider having sex without being in a relationship as morally wrong? Answer: no.

Do you believe commandments 4-10 are good?

If a parent rapes or abuses his child, he deserves no respect so 4 depends.

I agree with the rest although I don’t consider having sex without being married bad which I already mentioned.

 

[buffalo]

Well, that’s a matter of dispute. If a person does not believe Jesus is God or there is no God that would be greater reason not to be Catholic or Christian. I have a work colleague who is a passionate atheist. He lives chaste and never had sex(probably not voluntary though). He’s also a vegetarian, doesn’t smoke or drink alcohol.

If you’re asking if I think that a married person shouldn’t commit adultery, then yes. I think the same values exist if a couple is committed to each other without being married. Do I think that having sex without being married as morally wrong? Answer: no. Do I consider having sex without being in a relationship as morally wrong? Answer: no.

If a parent rapes or abuses his child, he deserves no respect so 4 depends.

I agree with the rest although I don’t consider having sex without being married bad which I already mentioned.

ARTICLE 4
THE FOURTH COMMANDMENT

What do you disagree with here?

 

[samiam1611]

Why should that influence you?

It doesn’t influence me, I meant that as an acknowledgment of me being different (majority=normal, minority=abnormal).

I agree with you. I felt that “abnormal” isn’t the right word.

 

[Lui]

ARTICLE 4
THE FOURTH COMMANDMENT

What do you disagree with here?

I disagree with all the religious parts. I was raised by atheist parents.

I disagree that parents who abuse their children deserve respect. If a parent abuses his child sexually or violently, he deserves prison and loses any form of respect, otherwise I agree that children should respect their parents but parents should also respect their children. If they don’t respect their children that can lead to forcing their children to an arranged marriage as it is custom among many societies and religions.

2253 Parents should respect and encourage their children’s vocations.
My atheist father who knew I wanted to work in animation did everything to support me, like encouraging my work, buying me books and material I needed for my vocation. I ended up working for all the top companies so these aren’t values that are exclusive to Catholicism.

I disagree that procreation is a must in marriage. If a couple marries and decides to not have children, then that is their choice. IF they have children they should support them anyway they can and make sure they get the best education though.

 

[buffalo]

I disagree with all the religious parts. I was raised by atheist parents.

I disagree that parents who abuse their children deserve respect. If a parent abuses his child sexually or violently, he deserves prison and loses any form of respect, otherwise I agree that children should respect their parents but parents should also respect their children. If they don’t respect their children that can lead to forcing their children to an arranged marriage as it is custom among many societies and religions.

2253 Parents should respect and encourage their children’s vocations.
My atheist father who knew I wanted to work in animation did everything to support me, like encouraging my work, buying me books and material I needed for my vocation. I ended up working for all the top companies so these aren’t values that are exclusive to Catholicism.

I disagree that procreation is a must in marriage. If a couple marries and decides to not have children, then that is their choice. IF they have children they should support them anyway they can and make sure they get the best education though.

The commandment is Honor your father and mother.

 

[Lui]

The commandment is Honor your father and mother.

Then substitute my word respect with honor.

 

[buffalo]

Then substitute my word respect with honor.

It is not the same thing.