Science & Religion

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My point was that by definition religion is not supposed to change, and it’s an even bigger problem on the religious person’s side when their religion simply evolves as new evidence comes along to refute older claims. And no scientist thinks that there’s anything science will not eventually be able to explain. Why can’t you put your trust in science that’s working on the problem rather than putting your faith in a superfluous unfalsifiable hypothesis?
Only the truths of a religion do not change. By definition they cannot. Science is provisional, changing all the time.

The weakness with science is that observations need to be reasoned by flawed humans.

Consider - science will never be able to close all the gaps. There will always be at least one, unless we are god.
 
Consider - science will never be able to close all the gaps. There will always be at least one, unless we are god.
But science will be able to close some gaps. If you pick the wrong gap to put your God in, then science may close the gap and squeeze your God out. Gods like Thor or Zeus were in the gap called, “Why do thunder and lightning happen?” That gap closed, and now those gods have nowhere to go. If you put your God into a gap then you might find yourself worshiping a shrinking God. Do you really want that? Are you willing to trust the existence of God to your ideas about what science will, and will not, do in future? That seems to me to be a very shaky foundation on which to base your faith.

“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we do not know; God wants us to realize his presence, not in unsolved problems but in those that are solved.”
  • Dietrich Bonhoeffer, “Letters and Papers from Prison”
rossum
 
But science will be able to close some gaps. If you pick the wrong gap to put your God in, then science may close the gap and squeeze your God out. Gods like Thor or Zeus were in the gap called, “Why do thunder and lightning happen?” That gap closed, and now those gods have nowhere to go. If you put your God into a gap then you might find yourself worshiping a shrinking God. Do you really want that? Are you willing to trust the existence of God to your ideas about what science will, and will not, do in future? That seems to me to be a very shaky foundation on which to base your faith.
“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we do not know; God wants us to realize his presence, not in unsolved problems but in those that are solved.”
  • Dietrich Bonhoeffer, "Letters and Papers from Prison"rossum
Correct.

The gods of the Greeks were definitely false.

There will be things that science cannot close the gap on since they are out of bounds for science. God is the creator, man is the created. By this alone means gaps will exist.

I doubt that science has the ability to falsify the uncaused cause. The best use of science is to investigate creation for the benefit of man and to glorify God.
 
Only the truths of a religion do not change. By definition they cannot.
But the belief in religions change all the time. No one believes in the religions of Germanic tribes, Ancient Romans or Greeks anymore. People lose faith in old religions and then believe in new ones. Considering humans are about 200000 years old while Christianity is only 2000 years old, I’m sure many religions came and went. One developed to the next while the previous vanished.
How many new Christian branches alone are there?
 
But the belief in religions change all the time. No one believes in the religions of Germanic tribes, Ancient Romans or Greeks anymore. People lose faith in old religions and then believe in new ones. Considering humans are about 200000 years old while Christianity is only 2000 years old, I’m sure many religions came and went. One developed to the next while the previous vanished.
How many new Christian branches alone are there?
Just so. When all of those old pagans heard Christianity they had the sense to know it was correct, to see the truth of it, and they converted.
 
But the belief in religions change all the time. No one believes in the religions of Germanic tribes, Ancient Romans or Greeks anymore. People lose faith in old religions and then believe in new ones. Considering humans are about 200000 years old while Christianity is only 2000 years old, I’m sure many religions came and went. One developed to the next while the previous vanished.
How many new Christian branches alone are there?
Christ founded the Catholic Church. It was a fulfillment of the Old Testament. There is continuity from Adam on down.

There is only one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. The others are properly referred to as ecclesiastical communities.

Now Christ knowing the fickleness of man (as you rightly point out) set it up really well. Catholicism is a three legged stool. The legs are Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium. Take any one away and the stool topples. This is all protected by the Holy Spirit that Christ promised. Since it was founded by God who is truth itself it will prevail to the end of time. Count on it.
 
My point was that by definition religion is not supposed to change, and it’s an even bigger problem on the religious person’s side when their religion simply evolves as new evidence comes along to refute older claims. And no scientist thinks that there’s anything science will not eventually be able to explain. Why can’t you put your trust in science that’s working on the problem rather than putting your faith in a superfluous unfalsifiable hypothesis?
There may well be religions where every last detail is carved in stone, but mine isn’t one of them, and it doesn’t conflict with good science as far as I know. I wouldn’t call it trust in science though - in science especially the idea is to make up our own mind on the basis of evidence, not trust what authority figures and others tell us.

We’re probably agreed in being against others trying to force their beliefs down our throats, whether in religion, science or whatever, but I don’t see how anyone could survive if their beliefs come only from science – your faith that your partner loves you and that you love your children are unfalsifiable hypotheses, but surely in no way superfluous.
 
Christ founded the Catholic Church. It was a fulfillment of the Old Testament. There is continuity from Adam on down.

There is only one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. The others are properly referred to as ecclesiastical communities.

Now Christ knowing the fickleness of man (as you rightly point out) set it up really well. Catholicism is a three legged stool. The legs are Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium. Take any one away and the stool topples. This is all protected by the Holy Spirit that Christ promised. Since it was founded by God who is truth itself it will prevail to the end of time. Count on it.
This is all based on your faith. I’m personally CONVINCED Adam is a fabrication and never existed.
 
This is all based on your faith. I’m personally CONVINCED Adam is a fabrication and never existed.
Personally convinced… :hmmm:

Catholicism would have never survived if fraudulent. The rapid rise of Christianity in the early days is testament to the force of the truth. The Jews wiped references to Jesus away they were so upset.
 
so what. Did the universe have a BB. Is the point and place of the BB the origin point of the universe, and the centre.
There wasn’t really a “point and place of the BB”; what began with the BB, and continues to expand as a result, is “point and place” itself; in other words, space-time. I know it’s confusing, but think of someone blowing up a balloon. Where is the center of the balloon? It isn’t the point of origin, the person’s mouth, because that is at the edge. It isn’t at a particular place because the balloon keeps getting bigger. If every galaxy was represented by a dot on the surface of the balloon, from any single dot, every other dot would seem to be expanding away from it, but this would be true no matter which dot you are on.

The question is irrelevant anyway; the quote it refers to was full of a lot of other absurdities as well.
 
There wasn’t really a “point and place of the BB”; what began with the BB, and continues to expand as a result, is “point and place” itself; in other words, space-time. I know it’s confusing, but think of someone blowing up a balloon. Where is the center of the balloon? It isn’t the point of origin, the person’s mouth, because that is at the edge. It isn’t at a particular place because the balloon keeps getting bigger. If every galaxy was represented by a dot on the surface of the balloon, from any single dot, every other dot would seem to be expanding away from it, but this would be true no matter which dot you are on.

The question is irrelevant anyway; the quote it refers to was full of a lot of other absurdities as well.
I’m not talking about where the center of the universe is, I’m saying that if there was a BB then it was the center, surely. I forget what this point was about now.
 
Personally convinced… :hmmm:

Catholicism would have never survived if fraudulent. The rapid rise of Christianity in the early days is testament to the force of the truth. The Jews wiped references to Jesus away they were so upset.
What about Hinduism which is much older? It has survived so I guess Hinduism is the REAL truth.

I bet your personally convinced that Zeus never existed or am I wrong?
 
What about Hinduism which is much older? It has survived so I guess Hinduism is the REAL truth.
Nope - not at all. Paganism has been around a while too.

Catholicism is built around the Resurrection. If there was a body it would have died right then and there. Are you aware of the latest findings on the Shroud?
 
Nope - not at all. Paganism has been around a while too.

Catholicism is built around the Resurrection. If there was a body it would have died right then and there. Are you aware of the latest findings on the Shroud?
The point made originally was that Catholicism wouldn’t have last this long if it was false. And the rejoinder was to name a religion that has been around longer, that any serious Catholic would clearly regard as false. So the appeal to longevity as a measure of truth value is specious, at best.
 
The point made originally was that Catholicism wouldn’t have last this long if it was false. And the rejoinder was to name a religion that has been around longer, that any serious Catholic would clearly regard as false. So the appeal to longevity as a measure of truth value is specious, at best.
The specific point made is that Catholicism has endured because of actual witness.
 
The specific point made is that Catholicism has endured because of actual witness.
That’s one way to see it or you can see it that it endured because the Roman Empire decided to use if for political reasons and that’s what is was used for in Centuries to follow.
 
One has to sort through the claims.
Right - so we can safely dismiss this idea that Christianity and Catholicism are true because they’ve been around so long, and nothing false could possibly survive so long.
 
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