Science & Religion

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Charlemagne_II said:
Whose word does St. Anastasia have for the several thousand Adams and Eves?
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Nobody’s word is needed. The evidence is present in modern human genomes. Techniques such as allele counts or Alu insertions allow population estimates to be made. No popoulation estimate has ever been as low as one breeding pair. See Huff et al, (2009) for an example of the sort of work being done on this question.

rossum
 
buffalo said:
Moses was fictional too? Oh boy…😦

Does the Bible contain accounts of any real events or characters?
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Who knows but I was trying to make a point. If all counter arguments are “it says so in the Bible”, why even have a discussion?
 
Lui said:
I already said that there aren’t just two options: either believe everything is by chance or we all are the descendants of Adam and Eve.
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Ultimately every option is between Design and non-Design. Try to evade that!
A fact you can choose to not believe;)
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Prove it beyond all reasonable doubt - if you can!
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Lui

**I already said that there aren’t just two options: either believe everything is by chance or we all are the descendants of Adam and Eve. **

The only alternative to everything is by chance is everything is by design.
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Other possible alternatives:
-Some things are by chance, and some are by design
-Humans fundamentally limited senses make it impossible for them to know with 100% accuracy which things are by chance and which are by design
 
tonyrey said:
ASimon;8534169:
The most economical explanation of reality is indisputably One Supreme Being - apart from nothing, but as Lear said, nothing shall come from nothing!
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Even if this were true - you have all your work in front of you to prove that this One Supreme Being (why does it need to be One? Why not Two? Or Ten? Or two teams of One Hundred and Six?), you have all your work ahead of you to show logically how and why this One Supreme Being created the entire Universe with you and me in mind.

Put it this way - if Deism is true, virtually nothing about my life changes. But your life (to the extent that your faith is the center of it) will come completely undone.

I wouldn’t want to be in your shoes.
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Lui said:
In other words, the opposite of NOT believing in the Adam and Eve story is NOT believing everything was designed by chance.
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Correct. There are too many variables in both propositions.
 
grannymh said:
Correct. There are too many variables in both propositions.
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I can assume that everything in the Universe did not develop by chance. How it developed is pure speculation. Maybe by God, maybe by several Gods, maybe we are just the computer game of some alien kid in a totally new dimension…who knows.
 
rossum said:
Nobody’s word is needed. The evidence is present in modern human genomes. Techniques such as allele counts or Alu insertions allow population estimates to be made. No popoulation estimate has ever been as low as one breeding pair. See Huff et al, (2009) for an example of the sort of work being done on this question.

rossum
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I do need to point out that the population estimate, itself, contains some interesting assumptions. One of them is the assumption of how many years is a generation. Given environmental changes, plagues, etc., would the same generation figure be constant over many centuries? Or consistently produce the same number of offspring?

Thanks for the link.
 
ASimon

**Occam’s Razor’s is the logical principle. Given competing hypothesis, it’s recommended that you select the one that makes the fewest assumptions. That’s atheism. Deism basically makes one assumption. **

Atheism makes one assumption also: that there is no God. It can make no other assumptions because it is intellectually bankrupt, confining itself to the single question: Is there a God? 😃
 
rossum said:
Nobody’s word is needed. The evidence is present in modern human genomes. Techniques such as allele counts or Alu insertions allow population estimates to be made. No popoulation estimate has ever been as low as one breeding pair. See Huff et al, (2009) for an example of the sort of work being done on this question.

rossum
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Interesting title - Mobile elements reveal small population size in the ancient ancestors of Homo sapiens

Important to remember - these are models with the simulations based on assumptions looking backward. What Adam and Eve had more genetic diversity than assumed?
 
rossum

Nobody’s word is needed. The evidence is present in modern human genomes. Techniques such as allele counts or Alu insertions allow population estimates to be made. No popoulation estimate has ever been as low as one breeding pair. See Huff et al, (2009) for an example of the sort of work being done on this question.

And there’s your problem. An estimate is not a fact. One can estimate that Moses did not exist. One can also estimate that Jesus is a fiction. None of these estimates are facts. You believe them not because they are true facts, but because you have a deep-seated craving to believe there is no God nor any specified Adam and Eve. 😉
 
Charlemagne_II said:
And there’s your problem. An estimate is not a fact. One can estimate that Moses did not exist. One can also estimate that Jesus is a fiction. None of these estimates are facts. You believe them not because they are true facts, but because you have a deep-seated craving to believe there is no God nor any specified Adam and Eve. 😉
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You don’t believe in Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism or Judaism. According to your logic the reason is because you have a strong desire not to believe in these religions. That is wrong though. The reason you don’t believe in these religions is because you believe they are wrong and Christianity is right.
That’s the same reason a person doesn’t believe in Jesus, Moses or Adam and Eve. He doesn’t believe because the religion and the claims of the religion doesn’t convince him and he believes the religion is wrong.

To claim that those who do not believe in Christianity have a deep-seated craving to believe there is no God nor any specified Adam and Eve is extremely presumptuous and ridiculous.

I could make the same claim about people who believe in God.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
ASimon

**Occam’s Razor’s is the logical principle. Given competing hypothesis, it’s recommended that you select the one that makes the fewest assumptions. That’s atheism. Deism basically makes one assumption. **

Atheism makes one assumption also: that there is no God. It can make no other assumptions because it is intellectually bankrupt, confining itself to the single question: Is there a God? 😃
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That there is no God is not an assumption - it is a truth claim made based on the quality of the evidence presented for the opposite view. The underlying logic here is that it’s silly to assume that there is a Something in spite of overwhelming lack of evidence for that Something. Deism can philosophically reside under the umbrella of “Nothing can come from Nothing.” But religion has to assume several different things about it’s Designer to even get itself off the ground.

To return to my point, there’s no compelling reason why a Designer couldn’t have just Designed the Universe’s origin event, then stopped intervening from that point forward. I can push a giant boulder so it rolls down a hill toward Main Street (Origin Event), and while I might be responsible for whatever happens when it gets there, that isn’t the same as saying I designed it so it would turn out a certain way. God might be as helpless to affect the outcome of his Origin Event as I am to affect the outcome of mine.
 
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