Science & Religion

[buffalo]

And we can only understand those references by accepting your pet theory. Or is it granny’s pet theory? Or the next lay Catholic’s pet theory? On the other hand we could junk the lot, live in the real world and trust in Christ, but I guess that would be cheating.

It would be quit the opposite. IDvolution stems from a thread started long ago - Science and tradition - are we looking deep enough. (if I recall the title)

IDvolution is consistent with Church teaching and the latest science. If it is worth anything it will stand the test of time. Otherwise it will just fade away…

 

[Ahimsa]

We are not talking about the souls of animals

True, and I just wanted to clarify that fact.

And just as a reminder, Ahimsa, Catholicism, unlike Buddhism, does not affirm any doctrine of reincarnation.

Uh, no one mentioned reincarnation.

 

[Lui]

IDvolution is consistent with Church teaching and the latest science. If it is worth anything it will stand the test of time.

Church teaching doesn’t say the earth is only about 10000 years old or that evolution is false, or am I wrong?

 

[inocente]

Catholicism specifically teaches that humanity descended from two, real, sole parents biblically known as Adam and Eve. We are a single species at the last point on the scientific cladistic diagram. We are a single species because the origin of true human nature consists of only two parents, father and mother.

If it teaches two parents then are they the Adam and Eve of scripture, created not begotten, or two people who never once appear in scripture, begotten not created? And it doesn’t allow, even a tiny bit, that bible authors might have had the intelligence to use symbolism?

This belief, monogenism, is required because of the Catholic belief that Jesus Christ is the Divine Redeemer of all humanity. It comes down to a choice between creature human reasoning and the actions of God, the Creator.

Don’t seem much of a choice, why would God require us to give up reason? Is reason not His gift then?

 

[grannymh]

And we can only understand those references by accepting your pet theory. Or is it granny’s pet theory? Or the next lay Catholic’s pet theory? On the other hand we could junk the lot, live in the real world and trust in Christ, but I guess that would be cheating.

It is an insult to the Catholic Church to refer to one of its basic doctrines as “granny’s pet theory.”

 

[grannymh]

Don’t seem much of a choice, why would God require us to give up reason? Is reason not His gift then?

When there is a serious choice to be made, God does not require us to give up reason. That idea is on the silly side since the spiritual intellective tools of reason are God’s gifts to help us to reason. In other words, the human mind uses its tools of reason to make an informed choice.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Uh, no one mentioned reincarnation.

Correct. I’m just aware of different theologies regarding afterlife – between certain Eastern philosophies (one with which you identify), and that of the Catholic Church, which has a radically different view of afterlife – one of the main demarcations in fact. And the souls of animals would only become important to the Church if (1) animals are active participants in salvation, or (2) animals share ontology with humans, or (3) animals and humans can transform, after death, into each other.

But since none of these are possibilities in the theology of the Roman Church, the souls of animals are a matter of speculation rather than doctrine. In any case, the Church teaches that the human soul is unique – vs. that of any animal, vs. that of other human beings. Other than these intellectual boundaries, Catholics are free to speculate and develop theories, just as other believers and non-believers are.

 

[buffalo]

Church teaching doesn’t say the earth is only about 10000 years old or that evolution is false, or am I wrong?

Up until a few hundred years ago Church teaching was a young earth. The Church has defended herself from evolution from the very beginning and the Hebrews did even before that.

The idea of uniformatarianism is what changed it all. And now we know that catastrophism is responsible for many geological features.

Only in the last 100 years have an old earth developed and changed several times going from millions of years, to 1.5 B and then to 4.6B and now back down several hundred thousand ( I think i got those right so don’t yell at me…)

So, science being provisional and all I would give it more time as data keeps coming in.

And actually, IDvolution does not even address ages. It deals with origins issues.

 

[grannymh]

. Is Genesis even mentioned in any creed?

Genesis 1:1 serves as the opening of the Nicene Creed.

And anyhow, I thought your project is to dispense with the events by rewriting Genesis, since you want the story altered to give Adam and Eve parents?

Adam and Eve ARE the first parents of humanity.

Since you either alter what I am saying about Adam and Eve or make fun of what I am saying, it is best if I do not aggravate you further with a defense of Catholic doctrine. I am sure you can understand my hesitancy to respond to your posts…

 

[grannymh]

Church teaching doesn’t say the earth is only about 10000 years old or that evolution is false, or am I wrong?

There is no Catholic doctrine regarding the scientific age of the earth. There is a Catholic doctrine that God is the Creator of earth.

As far as evolution is concerned, in this century one has to indicate which evolutionary model is being referred to and only then can the applicable Catholic teaching can be explained.

 

[tonyrey]

It is an insult to the Catholic Church to refer to one of its basic doctrines as “granny’s pet theory.”

Bravo! That remark breaks Forum Conduct Rule 1…

 

[tonyrey]

You have stated that the existence of God is “a matter of speculation”

Your precise words:

You can assume that everything in the Universe did not develop by chance. How it developed is pure speculation. Maybe by God, maybe by several Gods, maybe we are just the computer game of some alien kid in a totally new dimension…who knows.

1. Not everyone who claims to be a Catholic is a Catholic.

Unbelievable true. There are many hypocrites among people who claim to be Catholic.

Some also pretend to be a Catholic or a Christian for ulterior motives, thereby revealing their dishonesty…

Still, I think that personal insults should be avoided, no matter what faith a person has or doesn’t have.

I entirely agree.

 

[Lui]

Only in the last 100 years have an old earth developed and changed several times going from millions of years, to 1.5 B and then to 4.6B and now back down several hundred thousand ( I think i got those right so don’t yell at me…)

No serious scientist changed his mind and believes the earth is only a couple of hundred thousand years old instead of 4.5 billion. It’s still an established fact that the earth is 4.5 billion years old.
The reason the Church believed that the earth is younger all this time before is because science wasn’t advanced enough yet so they just assumed it.
Now that there is no doubt anymore the Church MUST make compromises because doing else wise would just embarrass her. The Church will be doing a lot of compromising because in the future more and more facts will emerge.

On a side note: if a person believes in God, isn’t it God who created man being curious? In other words, if man finds out more and more facts through science that would be God’s will

 

[tonyrey]

Granny is right that there is a distinct line of demarcation between the many non-human species and the singular, peerless human species. This distinction is the result of the God-created spiritual soul. Therefore, when looking for the possibility of God creating the human species, one has to look beyond the scientific material world.

Precisely! The physical makeup of our ancestors may well have been similar to other hominids but they were distinguishable by being “capable of self-knowledge, of self-possession and of freely giving themselves and entering into communion with other persons”. CCC 357

A person made in the image of God is distinguished by the fact that “the mastery over the world that God offered man from the beginning was realized above all within man himself: mastery of self.” CCC 377

**Physical **monogenism is therefore irrelevant!

 

[grannymh]

Precisely! The physical makeup of our ancestors may well have been similar to other hominids but they were distinguishable by being “capable of self-knowledge, of self-possession and of freely giving themselves and entering into communion with other persons”. CCC 357

A person made in the image of God is distinguished by the fact that “the mastery over the world that God offered man from the beginning was realized above all within man himself: mastery of self.” CCC 377

**Physical **monogenism is therefore irrelevant!

You were on target up to the last sentence. Physical or biological monogenism is essential for the transmission of Original Sin by propagation. Please continue reading to CCC 404, 405, and 406. Think about the fact that the whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man.”

 

[tonyrey]

You were on target up to the last sentence. Physical or biological monogenism is essential for the transmission of Original Sin by propagation. Please continue reading to CCC 404, 405, and 406. Think about the fact that the whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man.”

It doesn’t alter the fact that there was only one human couple at the outset!

 

[grannymh]

No serious scientist changed his mind and believes the earth is only a couple of hundred thousand years old instead of 4.5 billion. It’s still an established fact that the earth is 4.5 billion years old.
The reason the Church believed that the earth is younger all this time before is because science wasn’t advanced enough yet so they just assumed it.
Now that there is no doubt anymore the Church MUST make compromises because doing else wise would just embarrass her. The Church will be doing a lot of compromising because in the future more and more facts will emerge.

On a side note: if a person believes in God, isn’t it God who created man being curious? In other words, if man finds out more and more facts through science that would be God’s will

The reason that there are no Catholic doctrines on young earth, old earth, and middle earth is that the material/physical makeup of mother earth is not part of faith or morals. The earth, while created by God, belongs in the material domain. It definitely is not spiritual.

Those high-ranking clergy who talk about science are actually free to speculate or change their minds according to scientific discoveries about the earth and the universe. They are speaking as individuals in the same way scientists speak as individuals. Neither clergy nor scientists can declare Catholic doctrine on their own.

 

[StAnastasia]

It doesn’t alter the fact that there was only one human couple at the outset!

Tonrey, you’re going to need more proof than a simple assertion to convince the world’s biologists and geneticists of this theory.

 

[grannymh]

It doesn’t alter the fact that there was only one human couple at the outset!

Not sure what “It” refers to. I was referring to the necessity of physical or biological monogenism, that is, one human couple who transmits the effects of Original Sin to all their descendants through propagation.

 

[grannymh]

Tonrey, you’re going to need more proof than a simple assertion to convince the world’s biologists and geneticists of this theory.

Personally, I do not see why someone has to convince all the world’s biologists and geneticists of any theory. I, for one, totally respect the intelligence of these good people and have confidence that they can figure out things for themselves as they would know how to use “Google”.

If any scientist is curious about eternal life from the Catholic point of view, I am sure she or he is capable of satisfying their curiosity.

The people who do need some convincing are those who are confused about the limitations of science in general. Even then, they have to make their own choices.
Of course, there are some people who will never allow themselves to be convinced by Catholicism. These people need our prayers.