Scientific Apologetic for Virgin of Guadalupe

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JohnCarroll:
Maybe we should take a survey to see who sees something and who doesn’t. I am only talking about the eyes now but I think the Emperor has no clothes.
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Maybe, the Emperor has no clothes, maybe it’s imagination, maybe it’s being an artist, but I do see indistinct figures. I’m also the same person that pointed out religious scenes in rocks other pilgrims brought to me on a pilgrimage around the world. Maybe someone else should answer this one.
 
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Joanna:
Maybe, the Emperor has no clothes, maybe it’s imagination, maybe it’s being an artist, but I do see indistinct figures. I’m also the same person that pointed out religious scenes in rocks other pilgrims brought to me on a pilgrimage around the world. Maybe someone else should answer this one.
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Hello Joanna
what you say reminds me of an old Peanuts cartoon. In it Linus Lucy and Charlie are all lying on there backs looking at the clouds . Linus says something like" yes, I see Washington crossing the Delaware and there is St. Paul as he addresses those on Mars hill"and on and on-- Charlie Brown says " I was going to say I saw a Ducky and a Horsey but I don’t think I will"
 
Hello John,

I guess we can see what we see in faith, hoping. We can deduce from the scannings and interpolations of math and science. We can just enjoy. Or we can wait on heaven and the time when all things are revealed in the Light. In the meantime. it’s a miracle that we have this image and Our Lady of Guadalupe at all.

God bless us everyone!
 
The tilma is made from what is commonly called “cactus cloth.” Cactus cloth is made from fibers within the agave plant. The typical lifespan of cactus cloth is about 30-40 years, and then it disintegrates. Yet the tilma has lasted for 472 years!

In 1921 an anti-Catholic placed a vase of flowers in front of the tilma. Inside the vase was a stick of dynamite. The explosion bent an iron cross that was several feet away, but didn’t damage the cloth in any way.

There’s no rational explanation as to why this primitive cloth has not deteriorated, other than a miracle.

In the image, the garment worn by Our Lady of Guadalupe is a bluish-green robe dotted with stars. The placement of these stars corresponds to a map of the constellations, as seen from Mexico City, in December 1531, when the image was created.

Keep in mind, this is not a painting of Our Lady, as St. Juan Diego remembered seeing her, this is an image that miraculously appeared on his tilma. It is, in effect, a self-portrait left by the Blessed Mother.

The miraculous image is actually a secondary miracle. In the first miracle, Juan Diego was told to climb a hill and pick some roses. Since it was December, he did not expect any to be blooming. Not only were the roses in full bloom, they were a type that at the time grew only in Spain. Our Lady placed the roses in his tilma, and when he spread them out for the bishop to see, that is when the image of Our lady of Guadalupe was revealed.
 
i think that if anyone pointed it out to you guys, you’d see it easily. i can see several figures very obviously, facing toward the right, in a row.

anyone have official info on the constellation on her robe, the infant heartbeat, or that the tilma is always 98.6 degrees fahrenheit?
 
Constellations: These are said to be applied to images later on, and the exact location of the stars AT the time, year of the Miracle of the Mexican sky.

Heartbeat: There is a painting of the image which has travelled the US with many reported healings and incidences where people have felt the heartbeat, and one instance where the heartbeat was about 140 beats/per minute which is the average range for an unborn child!
I believe a nurse counted the beats with an actual stethoscope.

I’ll look for the source, but it was reported by the moderator for the image of our Lady on EWTN documentary.

Christ’s peace,
D in AZ
 
St. Louis flood recedes unexpectedly: SOrry, I don’t have the year, but it was 2000 something, recently, i believe.

In late July, Guardian Dan Lynch spoke at the St. Louis Eucharistic Congress during the height of the greatest flood in the United States history. In his talk he explained how Our Lady of Guadalupe interceded to save Mexico City from a horrible flood in 1634. The flood had already killed 30,000 people. The desperate citizens, imploring Our Lady’s help, carried the Miraculous Tilma through the knee-high flood waters from the Basilica to the Cathedral in Mexico City. This was the first and only time such a procession has taken place. The flood miraculously ended.
After his talk, Dan was asked by congress attendees to take the Missionary Image to the flooding Mississippi River. This river was originally named the River of the Immaculate Conception. Our Lady of Guadalupe is a representation of the Immaculate Conception.
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 Dan explains, "I made an announcement that we were having a spontaneous procession with the Missionary Image to the river.  About 200 people joined us as we processed from the Cathedral of St. Louis to the great arch of the Gateway to the West and down the flood swept  steps to the riverside.  There we were joined by hundreds of onlookers as we sprinkled holy water into the river and prayed in the pouring rain for an abatement of the flood, the salvation of the dead and the healing of the sufferers.  We concluded by singing 'America the Beautiful.'

 As we processed back, the rain suddenly stopped and as we sang the very last note of the 'Hail Holy Queen', the cathedral bells unexpectedly rang out jubilantly at 5:20 p.m.!  As we placed the Image into our van, a large flock of swallows suddenly swooped over and circled continuously.  There were no other birds seen anywhere else."

 The next day the flood waters began to recede one day before the predicted high crest, which never came.  The congress organizers credit this to Our Lady of Guadalupe.

 May she end the flood of sin as she ends the flood of waters!
AMEN
 
so all stories of the heartbeat and the stars on the robe are anecdotal?
 
One of the points the Zenit article glosses over is how well the image has stayed preserved. First, they know that cactus fibers used in the tilma typically last 20 years before deteriorating and rotting.
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i read somewhere that the tilma is made from hemp fibers which are native to mexico and would explain its durability. this was based on someone’s analysis. does anyone know if they found outlines under the paint? i thought they might have.
 
there isn’t any paint. and it’s made of cactus fibers. do you have kind of reference to the ‘hemp’ claim?
 
The tilma is made from what is commonly called “cactus cloth.” But cactus cloth isn’t made from a cactus, it’s made from agaves. Before Linnaeus, any desert plant with spines was called a cactus; today we have a more specific definition of that plant family. * Cactus cloth has a life of 30-40 years under ideal conditions. This tilma has lasted 473 years.

The image has been x-rayed, looking for evidence of an outline, or of multiple layers of overlapping color. Either of these factors would have indicated that the image was painted by hand, but neither was found. Scientists still have no rational explanation of how the image appeared on the cloth, other than a miracle.*
 
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nobody:
I did a google search and found this site with the photograph:
biblia.com/guadalupe/eyes.htm
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JohnCarroll:
Maybe we should take a survey to see who sees something and who doesn’t.
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In the Tonsmann image, “the Indian” (facing right?) and “the translator” (facing left?) are the ones that are the least clear to me, but I can definitely see “Bishop Zumarraga” (facing right) and “Juan Diego showing the tilma” (facing left). I don’t know what to make of who/whatever’s behind Juan Diego (i.e. in the upper right hand corner of the Tonsmann image).

However, I have to try really hard to see the “bearded man” in the 1929 Marcue image. The red outline was definitely a distraction… at first I couldn’t help but see a seated cat!
 
the really convincing thing to me is that the images ARE difficult to make out. but once you see them, you can tell that they are what tonsmann says they are. in other words, if it were a hoax, or a fake, it would be much clearer, i think. the very obscurity of the images, coupled with the obvious correlation between the images and things i’ve seen in real LIFE, make it all the more believable.

also - if it were a fake, it’s hard to imagine that no one ever pointed it out until now. the only question that remains, i think, is if the images are just wishful thinking (like pictures in the clouds) or if they really are images of reflections on an ‘eye’.

i think they’re real.
 
there isn’t any paint. and it’s made of cactus fibers. do you have kind of reference to the ‘hemp’ claim?
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udayton.edu/mary/meditations/samaha7.html
Two fibers of the tilma were lent to Professor Chiment for testing. These fibers had been removed from the outer edge of the tilma when it was stored during the Mexican Revolution. The test results showed that the fibers did not come from native cactus plants, nor did they come from cotton, wool, or linen – fibers that might have been used in Europe. Rather, the tilma seems to be woven from hemp, a plant native to Mexico. Hemp is one of the strongest fibers known, and hempen cloth can last hundreds of years. This could explain the tilma’s remarkable state of preservation.
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who knows if this is true, i found it on a website.

this website has more info about its origins but i don’t trust it csicop.org/sb/2002-06/guadalupe.html
Actually, infrared photographs show that the hands have been modified, and close-up photography shows that pigment has been applied to the highlight areas of the face sufficiently heavily so as to obscure the texture of the cloth. There is also obvious cracking and flaking of paint all along a vertical seam, and the infrared photos reveal in the robe’s fold what appear to be sketch lines, suggesting that an artist roughed out the figure before painting it.
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Sorry to rain on the party, but I don’t see any figures in those pictures of the eyes. 🤷

Though, I guess the distortion due to the curvature of the eyes, the fact that they’re smaller than ordinary eyes, and the fact that it’s printed on cloth could all have something to do with the obscurity of the figures.

Could someone point out specifically where they see images of people in the eyes? 'Cause I just can’t make them out, if they’re even there. :confused:
 
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