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freethinker83
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I can understand your reasoning here. Even if there is an uncaused cause, that does not convince me it was a God. I am okay with not knowing.
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Cat_Herder
Guest
The Big Bang disproves polytheism so that leaves you with a 1/3 chance of picking the correct religion at random. Once you pop the hood of history, however, Christianity proves to be the most logical choice.I agree, you cannot prove something doesn’t exist. The same goes for fairies, Thor, bigfoot, unicorns, etc.
My biggest problem with Pascal’s Wager is choosing the wrong God. What if out of the thousands of choices throughout history I choose the wrong one?
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Robert_Burns
Guest
If you have chosen the GOD of free thinking and Atheism , you have.I agree, you cannot prove something doesn’t exist. The same goes for fairies, Thor, bigfoot, unicorns, etc.
My biggest problem with Pascal’s Wager is choosing the wrong God. What if out of the thousands of choices throughout history I choose the wrong one?
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freethinker83
Guest
I don’t even think the 1/3 would be true within Christianity. As you are aware there are denominations that believe if you worship in X’s way you will go to hell. So if they happened to be right I would still be out of luck.The Big Bang disproves polytheism so that leaves you with a 1/3 chance of picking the correct religion at random. Once you pop the hood of history, however, Christianity proves to be the most logical choice.
I’m not looking to debate this particular issue, but how does the Big Bang disprove polytheism? Does it go back to there being a single cause? If so how could we know that whatever happened pre-Big Bang happened due to this?
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JackQ
Guest
Well, then, you’re an agnostic rather than an atheist, I think.The thing is, if there were hard scientific proof most scientists would accept it after giving it a critical review. Good scientists are open to new theories as long as there is strong evidence to back it them up. Good scientists also try to disprove their own theories.
I am a strong believer in both evolution and the big bang. If a theory with stronger testible evidence than evolution were to surface tomorrow I would likely abandon my belief in evolution immediately.
I’m not denying the possibility of a God–I am saying that what the vast majority of the scientific community considers proof does not yet exist.
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Barbkw
Guest
Thanks for the correction: Big Bang 13.75 Billion; Earth’s age 4.54 Billion.I don’t know where you get your number for Earth-like planets, but we are just now getting to where we are able to discover them. We have just now begun discovering Earth-like planets. I would bet a lot of money that many will be discovered over the next 20 years or so. You also don’t mention the possibility that moons of larger planets could be Earth-like.
4.6 billion years is the age of the earth, the big bang was 13 or 14 billion years ago. I’m just clarifying, not arguing.
You might want to read through the material that astronomer Hugh Ross has compiled from various scientific papers.
He discusses what science is determining about the statistical probability of there being another habitable planet (for humans) in our galaxy.
"Some 55 of these basic parameters for life support have now been discovered. Without any one of them life on Earth would be impossible. Astrophysicist Hugh Ross has calculated the probability of all 55 occurring simultaneously to be less than one in 10 to the 69 power. ".
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freethinker83
Guest
The thing is, even a very devout Christian can say with 100% certainty that they are right, just as no atheist can say with 100% certainty that there is no God. You may be 99.999% certain, but in order to have faith I don’t think it can be 100%, or else faith isn’t needed.If you have chosen the GOD of free thinking and Atheism , you have.
According to some Christian sects Catholics are going to Hell.
I live a relatively peaceful life. I treat people as I would like to be treated and love my family and friends. I am not violent, nor do I commit crimes. I would hope that if I am wrong and there is a God he woudl see that I lived a relatively good life when it is over. Afterall, if he is willing to forgive murderers and rapists who accept him, I would hope he could accept a peaceful person who had doubts due to the logical mind given to him by God.
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freethinker83
Guest
Not true. Being an atheist doesn’t mean I know there is no God, it means that I don’t believe there is a God. Agnostics can fall into many different categories; some believe it is unknowable and therefore not important, others believe there is, others that there isn’t, etc.Well, then, you’re an agnostic rather than an atheist, I think.
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Robert_Burns
Guest
Can you explain the Public Miracles of Christ? The numerous Public Miracles at Lourdes? Of the Eucharist? The Shroud? The Sudarium ? The Tilma of Guadalupe?I can understand your reasoning here. Even if there is an uncaused cause, that does not convince me it was a God. I am okay with not knowing.
For some - no proof is sufficient no matter how miraculous. So it is not a matter of proving the existance of GOD in order to have faith. In fact - GOD purposely makes it a matter of Faith so as to try men.
Think about it this way - your entire paradigm requires scientific proof PRIOR to Faith. So what makes you so certain that your paradigm is nessesary to begin with.
Certainly JESUS fasted in the Desert for 40 Days and 40 Nights prior to even beginning his ministry. Why would he do that , being sinless himself if not as an example to us. Indeed , in order to find the deep truths of GOD you have to meet him on his own plane and do the things HE expects. Dont assume he has to prove himself to you. He doesnt. He has provided ample proof in the Spiritual Realm. But unles you are willing to build upon your own spirituality and to develope that aspect of your being and instead expect the Inifinite GOD to come to you on your terms - then your are searching in all the wrong places IMO.
Pax
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Decimvs
Guest
well the second video, scientists show us the evidence as to why the theories evolution are now invalid.The thing is, if there were hard scientific proof most scientists would accept it after giving it a critical review. Good scientists are open to new theories as long as there is strong evidence to back it them up. Good scientists also try to disprove their own theories.
I am a strong believer in both evolution and the big bang. If a theory with stronger testible evidence than evolution were to surface tomorrow I would likely abandon my belief in evolution immediately.
I’m not denying the possibility of a God–I am saying that what the vast majority of the scientific community considers proof does not yet exist.
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Robert_Burns
Guest
Show me an Atheist and I will show you someone who isnt looking for GOD.well the second video, scientists show us the evidence as to why the theories evolution are now invalid.
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freethinker83
Guest
I would gladly consider this if you could show me proof of these miracles outside of the Bible. If some of the big types of miracles were to occur today I’d consider. I’m talking about walking on water, raising the dead, giving the blind sight type of miracles; I don’t count a child surviving a fire, someone surviving a gunshot wound to the head, etc as miracles.Can you explain the Public Miracles of Christ? The numerous Public Miracles at Lourdes? Of the Eucharist? The Shroud? The Sudarium ? The Tilma of Guadalupe?
For some - no proof is sufficient no matter how miraculous. So it is not a matter of proving the existance of GOD in order to have faith. In fact - GOD purposely makes it a matter of Faith so as to try men.
Think about it this way - your entire paradigm requires scientific proof PRIOR to Faith. So what makes you so certain that your paradigm is nessesary to begin with.
Certainly JESUS fasted in the Desert for 40 Days and 40 Nights prior to even beginning his ministry. Why would he do that , being sinless himself if not as an example to us. Indeed , in order to find the deep truths of GOD you have to meet him on his own plane and do the things HE expects. Dont assume he has to prove himself to you. He doesnt. He has provided ample proof in the Spiritual Realm. But unles you are willing to build upon your own spirituality and to develope that aspect of your being and instead expect the Inifinite GOD to come to you on your terms - then your are searching in all the wrong places IMO.
Pax
If the Bible is enough for you I’m okay with that. It isn’t sufficient for me.
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Barbkw
Guest
Freethinker,
Why do you list atheist on your identifier? Doesn’t your belief system fall more in line with polytheism?
Or did polytheism lead you into atheism?
Why do you list atheist on your identifier? Doesn’t your belief system fall more in line with polytheism?
Or did polytheism lead you into atheism?
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freethinker83
Guest
No ma’am. I was never a polytheist. I think my comment to catherder may have given you that impression. I was just curious as to how he thought the Big Bang disproved polytheism, I never had any belief in it.Freethinker,
Why do you list atheist on your identifier? Doesn’t your belief system fall more in line with polytheism?
Or did polytheism lead you into atheism?
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Robert_Burns
Guest
No, Actually you have failed to address the pertinent part of my original answer regarding why you assume your proof is necessary paradigm is tantamount. And for good reason , you cannot.I would gladly consider this if you could show me proof of these miracles outside of the Bible. If some of the big types of miracles were to occur today I’d consider. I’m talking about walking on water, raising the dead, giving the blind sight type of miracles; I don’t count a child surviving a fire, someone surviving a gunshot wound to the head, etc as miracles.
If the Bible is enough for you I’m okay with that. It isn’t sufficient for me.
Example - Do I have to prove my existance to an amoeba? Obviously not. And how much greater is GOD than that.
The entire premise of your argument is assumption.
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Decimvs
Guest
bless you.The thing is, even a very devout Christian can say with 100% certainty that they are right, just as no atheist can say with 100% certainty that there is no God. You may be 99.999% certain, but in order to have faith I don’t think it can be 100%, or else faith isn’t needed.
According to some Christian sects Catholics are going to Hell.
I live a relatively peaceful life. I treat people as I would like to be treated and love my family and friends. I am not violent, nor do I commit crimes. I would hope that if I am wrong and there is a God he woudl see that I lived a relatively good life when it is over. Afterall, if he is willing to forgive murderers and rapists who accept him, I would hope he could accept a peaceful person who had doubts due to the logical mind given to him by God.
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freethinker83
Guest
To me proof is necessary because that is how I live every other aspect of my life. If a company tells me I owe them money I ask for proof before I pay them. If a police officer claims I violated a traffic law I ask for proof. If a doctor tells me I have a certain condition I want to see proof.No, Actually you have failed to address the pertinent part of my original answer regarding why you assume your proof is necessary paradigm is tantamount. And for good reason , you cannot.
You can have faith and that is fine–I simply cannot.
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Robert_Burns
Guest
Well if an Atheist tells me that GOD doesnt exist I too ask for proof because I live my life in much the same way.To me proof is necessary because that is how I live every other aspect of my life. If a company tells me I owe them money I ask for proof before I pay them. If a police officer claims I violated a traffic law I ask for proof. If a doctor tells me I have a certain condition I want to see proof.
You can have faith and that is fine–I simply cannot.
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Barbkw
Guest
No, it wasn’t from the conversation here.No ma’am. I was never a polytheist. I think my comment to catherder may have given you that impression. I was just curious as to how he thought the Big Bang disproved polytheism, I never had any belief in it.
It was from a past statement you made.
You posted a belief in multiple gods and therefore can’t believe in one god.
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Cat_Herder
Guest
If you compare their teachings on marriage to what Jesus actually taught, only the Catholic Church and maybe the Orthodox qualify and those churches recognize one another.I don’t even think the 1/3 would be true within Christianity. As you are aware there are denominations that believe if you worship in X’s way you will go to hell. So if they happened to be right I would still be out of luck.
Alternatively, consider most Protestant denominations are Calvinist. Basically that means they claim that God wills only certain people to be saved, and 1 Timothy 2:4 says God wills everyone to be saved. So that removes everyone except the Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, the Disciples/Churches of Christ and maybe a few others.
Conservation of energy. You cannot combine two or more gods who have finite energy to produce the Big Bang.I’m not looking to debate this particular issue, but how does the Big Bang disprove polytheism? Does it go back to there being a single cause? If so how could we know that whatever happened pre-Big Bang happened due to this?
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