Scientific proof of God.

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freethinker83 said:
If the Bible is enough for you I’m okay with that. It isn’t sufficient for me.
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BTW - We are Catholic. We are not “Bible Alone Protestants.”

So the Bible is enough argument doesnt fly with us. We believe in everything contained in the Deposit of Faith.

And time is on our side , not yours. Judgement day will come whether I like it or you like it or not. You will indeed have all the proof you want on that day and denial will no longer be an option. These are things you should consider in your quest.

Good luck to you.

Pax
 
Robert_Burns said:
And time is on our side , not yours. Judgement day will come whether I like it or you like it or not. You will indeed have all the proof you want on that day and denial will no longer be an option. These are things you should consider in your quest.

Good luck to you.

Pax
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Fear tactics are one thing that originally made me question religion. This did not directly lead to being an atheist, but did drive me from organized religion.

Why would God give me the power to question him and then punish me for it?
 
Barbkw said:
No, it wasn’t from the conversation here.

It was from a past statement you made.

You posted a belief in multiple gods and therefore can’t believe in one god.
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I think you must be confusing me with someone else, I don’t ever recall declaring belief in multiple gods at any point in my life.
 
freethinker83 said:
Fear tactics are one thing that originally made me question religion. This did not directly lead to being an atheist, but did drive me from organized religion.

Why would God give me the power to question him and then punish me for it?
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Why would what I say be a fear tactic if as you say GOD doesnt exist? Oh ye of little faith. (In your position) I am that confident in my position as to make that statement based entirely on what I know and backed up by 2000 years of Dogmatic Teachings of such luminaries as St Thomas Aquinas and St Robert Bellarmine. I would be uncharitable if I did not warn you of the folly of your position would I not?

Secondly , explaining why you are an Atheist is moot. We are here to debate not apologize are we not? Otherwise why would you come to a Forum that is designed for religious discussions. Therefore , you do not have to justify yourself before men - but like the people here , you will one day have to justify yourself before GOD as we all will. Now if that evokes fear as an emotion , my next question would of course be why?

As for why GOD gives mankind free will - that answer is simple

GOD is omnipotent. But what is the One thing even GOD Himself cannot create?

Answer : LOVE given freely without coersion by a created creature to HIM of its own free will.

So , if you are not willing to do the only thing GOD expects of you - what do you expect will happen to you?

Pax
 
“If the Bible is enough for you I’m okay with that. It isn’t sufficient for me.”

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states a very different interaction between Sacred Scripture and scientific knowledge.

159
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c3a1.htm#159

"Faith and science: "Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason.

Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth." 37

"Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God.

The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are.“38”
 
Robert_Burns said:
Why would what I say be a fear tactic if as you say GOD doesnt exist? Oh ye of little faith. (In your position) I am that confident in my position as to make that statement based entirely on what I know and backed up by 2000 years of Dogmatic Teachings of such luminaries as St Thomas Aquinas and St Robert Bellarmine. I would be uncharitable if I did not warn you of the folly of your position would I not?

Secondly , explaining why you are an Atheist is moot. We are here to debate not apologize are we not? Otherwise why would you come to a Forum that is designed for religious discussions. Therefore , you do not have to justify yourself before men - but like the people here , you will one day have to justify yourself before GOD as we all will. Now if that evokes fear as an emotion , my next question would of course be why?

As for why GOD gives mankind free will - that answer is simple

GOD is omnipotent. But what is the One thing even GOD Himself cannot create?

Answer : LOVE given freely without coersion by a created creature to HIM of its own free will.

So , if you are not willing to do the only thing GOD expects of you - what do you expect will happen to you?

Pax
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I am not afraid now. Fear is the sole reason I continued believing in God when I started questioning my faith. I was afraid of going to hell if I was wrong. Do you really want someone to love your God out of fear?

Why I am here has to do with an eagerness to learn. I live in a nation full of religious people and I feel as though I should try and understand their perspective.

You have to admit life wouldn’t be as much fun if everyone shared your beliefs. You must get some enjoyment out of preaching to non-believers 😛
 
Barbkw said:
What if God does exist?
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And taking it even one step further - Who revealed Jesus Christ to Mankind , in what manner and in what way?

The answer of course is GOD himself.

So to those who deny the existance of GOD - cannot question the Church who follows - but rather GOD himself who revealed the divine mysteries in a manner known only to him. Therefore , their consternation must by definition be directed at GOD Himself.

We are merely his messengers and witnesses. I wonder how many Atheists understand that basic truth.
 
Barbkw said:
What if God does exist?
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Which one?

Assuming you mean the Christian God I will be going to hell when I die. The same could be true for you under other versions of God.

I try to live a good and noble life without worrying about what comes after. I personally see no reason to believe anything comes after my brain ceases to function.

As Mark Twain said, “I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”
 
freethinker83 said:
I am not afraid now. Fear is the sole reason I continued believing in God when I started questioning my faith. I was afraid of going to hell if I was wrong. Do you really want someone to love your God out of fear?

Why I am here has to do with an eagerness to learn. I live in a nation full of religious people and I feel as though I should try and understand their perspective.

You have to admit life wouldn’t be as much fun if everyone shared your beliefs. You must get some enjoyment out of preaching to non-believers 😛
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Fear the sole reason? Of course it is - And we both know that Fear isnt Love dont we? The Fear Catholics have lies in offending the one they love and or offending his laws because they love him , which of course is not the same thing you practised is it. I would be even more surprised if you retained your " faith " which for all intents and purposes was merely the facade of Faith and not a true Faith anyway. No one goes to HELL unles they deserve to be there and the only one who can send them there is GOD. I am cool with that. No mere “man” can send me there.

And when you say you are here to learn - Methinks you are here with an agenda but be that as it may there is nothing to understand about Christianity - it is a relationship with GOD himself only that will enlighten through grace. As for saying you live in a Nation and you seek to understand - the obvious hypocrisy lies in the fact that you likewise live ina universe created by GOD Who sustains your very life - your next heartbeat - and breath and yet I am certain you consider yourself an american as do I - but then turn and Call GOD " Your" GOD as though your obvious slight is being directed at the Chiristians here.
Think again , GOD is your GOD too. Because there is only ONE GOD in three divine persons. Insulting GOD in my presence will not go unchallenged so my advise to you is to cease before I report you to the moderator for disrespecting GOD.

As for enjoying “preaching” to non believers , correct me if I am wrong , but where is this conversation taking place again? In CATHOLIC Answers? It would appear that you are the one who has come here to preach , wouldnt it?

Pax
 
Robert_Burns said:
Fear the sole reason? Of course it is - And we both know that Fear isnt Love dont we? The Fear Catholics have lies in offending the one they love and or offending his laws because they love him , which of course is not the same thing you practised is it. I would be even more surprised if you retained your " faith " which for all intents and purposes was merely the facade of Faith and not a true Faith anyway. No one goes to HELL unles they deserve to be there and the only one who can send them there is GOD. I am cool with that. No mere “man” can send me there.

And when you say you are here to learn - Methinks you are here with an agenda but be that as it may there is nothing to understand about Christianity - it is a relationship with GOD himself only that will enlighten through grace. As for saying you live in a Nation and you seek to understand - the obvious hypocrisy lies in the fact that you likewise live ina universe created by GOD Who sustains your very life - your next heartbeat - and breath and yet I am certain you consider yourself an american as do I - but then turn and Call GOD " Your" GOD as though your obvious slight is being directed at the Chiristians here.
Think again , GOD is your GOD too. Because there is only ONE GOD in three divine persons. Insulting GOD in my presence will not go unchallenged so my advise to you is to cease before I report you to the moderator for disrespecting GOD.

As for enjoying “preaching” to non believers , correct me if I am wrong , but where is this conversation taking place again? In CATHOLIC Answers? It would appear that you are the one who has come here to preach , wouldnt it?

Pax
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Accusing me of having an agenda is a bit of a stretch. You can’t say that you have any way of knowing my intentions.

I apologize if you were offended by my terminology, I did not mean to insult you. I did mean to imply that not everyone in the world believes the Christian God is their God.

I was meaning to lighten things up when I mentioned “preaching to non-believers”, I thought the emoticon implied that. I am not here to preach and I don’t think you could prove otherwise; debate yes, preach no. There is a difference.

Peace
 
Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

Ya gotta start somewhere (obedience is one main theme running throughout Scripture).

A lot of children initially obey their parents for the same reason.

I obeyed my Mom in fear of my Dad.

Althou, my Mom could lay on a smack down that actually was far worse than what my Dad handed out (probably why my Mom eventually left my Dad out of the disciplinary circle).
 
freethinker83 said:
Accusing me of having an agenda is a bit of a stretch. You can’t say that you have any way of knowing my intentions.

I apologize if you were offended by my terminology, I did not mean to insult you. I did mean to imply that not everyone in the world believes the Christian God is their God.

I was meaning to lighten things up when I mentioned “preaching to non-believers”, I thought the emoticon implied that. I am not here to preach and I don’t think you could prove otherwise; debate yes, preach no. There is a difference.

Peace
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Hardly , using incendary terms such as “your” GOD is proof positive. Secondly , the hypocrisy and tone of your diatribe is further evidence as well as your bias and preconcieved misconceptions of what Catholics believe like that part about the Bible. I merely comment on what I read. You supplied the content , not me so I base what I write on what you write first.

I dont have a problem with people who want to debate provided they dispense with the rhetoric and simply debate in earnest. Insulting GOD in a Catholic forum implying that there are “other” GOD’s is not the same as stating you do not believe in the existance of GOD. That is contradictory. So I do not believe you can now claim innocence after you supplied that level of contradictory rhetoric knowing full well where you were when you supplied it , in a Catholic forum. So if we use the tenets found in the American jurisprudence system - I would have to say there is a mountain of Circumstantial Evidence against you , enough to find you guilty through a preponderance of said evidence. There is no difference and you have already admitted you are an American and thus your system of Justice would indeed apply.

Pax.
 
Cat_Herder said:
Not necessarily.
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Could I make the argument that I am unaware of the Gospel? I have been to church services and read parts of the Bible. If you can make this argument for me I would be glad to know there is at least one person here who doesn’t think I’m headed to eternal punishment 😃
 
freethinker83 said:
Could I make the argument that I am unaware of the Gospel? I have been to church services and read parts of the Bible. If you can make this argument for me I would be glad to know there is at least one person here who doesn’t think I’m headed to eternal punishment 😃
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Why is it our job to instruct you? Once again , assumption. Do you sit in your living room and expect the Dean of Harvard to come there and teach you law?
 
Robert_Burns said:
Hardly , using incendary terms such as “your” GOD is proof positive. Secondly , the hypocrisy and tone of your diatribe is further evidence as well as your bias and preconcieved misconceptions of what Catholics believe like that part about the Bible. I merely comment on what I read. You supplied the content , not me so I base what I write on what you write first.

I dont have a problem with people who want to debate provided they dispense with the rhetoric and simply debate in earnest. Insulting GOD in a Catholic forum implying that there are “other” GOD’s is not the same as stating you do not believe in the existance of GOD. That is contradictory. So I do not believe you can now claim innocence after you supplied that level of contradictory rhetoric knowing full well where you were when you supplied it , in a Catholic forum. So if we use the tenets found in the American jurisprudence system - I would have to say there is a mountain of Circumstantial Evidence against you , enough to find you guilty through a preponderance of said evidence. There is no difference and you have already admitted you are an American and thus your system of Justice would indeed apply.

Pax.
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My misconceptions of what Catholics believe do not come from malice but ignorance. As I said, I am here partially to learn.

I did not mean to insult God, nor did I say I believed in other Gods. I believe in no Gods. This is not meant to insult anyone.

Go ahead and report me if you like. You seem to assume the worst of me.

I feel as though you are personally attacking me because I don’t share your beliefs. I have no ill-will towards anyone here.
 
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