Scientific proof of God.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Decimvs
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
freethinker83 said:
I am not sure I understand you correctly. I do not accept what is claimed as scientific proof of God as scientific proof.
Click to expand...
Indeed. These are not “proof” of anything except the inquisitive and philosophical nature of the human mind. These vids have been discussed here before.
 
freethinker83 said:
I am not sure I understand you correctly. I do not accept what is claimed as scientific proof of God as scientific proof.
Click to expand...
What is not to understand - you have taken the discussion into a “What I the Atheist personally Believe” and thus have submitted no Proof of your own.
 
Robert_Burns said:
What is not to understand - you have taken the discussion into a “What I the Atheist personally Believe” and thus have submitted no Proof of your own.
Click to expand...
Not true. Would you like me to submit proof of why I don’t accept assumptions as proof?
 
freethinker83 said:
I can’t name every possibility, but here are some I can think of.

Firsthand- God speaking directly to me or revealing himself to me in a very clear way.

Secondhand with evidence- A video or many trusted first-hand modern day accounts of a biblical type miracle. By biblical type miracle I mean something akin to walking on water, a sea parting, someone being raised from the dead, etc.

Also, something mainstream scientists may accept as scientific proof. I can’t describe this because it doesn’t yet exist.
Click to expand...
In my other post I wrote:

Perhaps you think GOD hasnt done a good enough job revealing himself to you in order to suit YOU? Is that the gist of your argument?

Thank you for confirming it
 
Robert_Burns said:
In my other post I wrote:

Perhaps you think GOD hasnt done a good enough job revealing himself to you in order to suit YOU? Is that the gist of your argument?

Thank you for confirming it
Click to expand...
I suppose that sums it up, except I don’t believe that there is a God to reveal himself to me. I am ready and waiting if he ever decides to.

I can’t help but feel that you are personally offended by me. It is not my intention to offend you.
 
freethinker83 said:
I suppose that sums it up, except I don’t believe that there is a God to reveal himself to me. I am ready and waiting if he ever decides to.

I can’t help but feel that you are personally offended by me. It is not my intention to offend you.
Click to expand...
Once again - thats your own paradigm. You assume the following:
  1. GOD is obligated to reveal himself to you in a way YOU alone approve of.
  2. Catholics are obligated to reveal GOD to you to your own satisfaction.
  3. That waiting for your terms to be met is the prudent course of action.
  4. That what you believe is the only thing anyone who talks to you should be concerned about.
So to sum things up , No i am not offended by you , I merely refuse to abide by the terms of your carefully constructed paradigm to satisfy your pride.

And I am not trying to offend you either.

“Pride cometh before the fall.”
 
Robert_Burns said:
Once again - thats your own paradigm. You assume the following:
  1. GOD is obligated to reveal himself to you in a way YOU alone approve of.
  2. Catholics are obligated to reveal GOD to you to your own satisfaction.
  3. That waiting for your terms to be met is the prudent course of action.
  4. That what you believe is the only thing anyone who talks to you should be concerned about.
So to sum things up , No i am not offended by you , I merely refuse to abide by the terms of your carefully constructed paradigm to satisfy your pride.

And I am not trying to offend you either.

“Pride cometh before the fall.”
Click to expand...
Good, no offense was ever taken on my side.

Regarding point 2; it is generally up to the person claiming something to prove their claim. Although the Catholic Church’s claims satisfy you and many others, which is fine, they do not satisfy me.

If I tell you I have a glass of water in the next room, that you cannot go and see you can choose to believe me or not. If I actually show you my glass of water it becomes hard to argue its existance.

Regarding point 3: Do you think someone in my position should explore all claims of higher powers from around the world?
 
freethinker83 said:
Good, no offense was ever taken on my side.

Regarding point 2; it is generally up to the person claiming something to prove their claim. Although the Catholic Church’s claims satisfy you and many others, which is fine, they do not satisfy me.

If I tell you I have a glass of water in the next room, that you cannot go and see you can choose to believe me or not. If I actually show you my glass of water it becomes hard to argue its existance.

Regarding point 3: Do you think someone in my position should explore all claims of higher powers from around the world?
Click to expand...
Regarding point 2 - the Catholic Church is FOLLOWING its founder. Its Founder is the Revealed Son of GOD , revealed by GOD. The Catholic Church doesnt claim anything. It does as instructed by Jesus Christ in the Deposit of Faith as guided by the Holy Ghost who in turn guides the Magisterium and the Vicar of Christ and has since Pentecost Sunday. That is History. Look it up. No one needs to prove historic events.

As to your second point - the Catholic Faith is not based on the Carnal but on the Spiritual. If you fail to understand the Spiritual Design of the Faith then you fail to form an opinion based on the structure. When we Pray to GOD - we do not see GOD. Hense the term Faith. When GOD answers that prayer with something tangible we dont see GOD then either. If we saw GOD as a Carnal Manifestation every time he answered a prayer would it make our faith stronger , have no effect , or weaker? I say weaker.

As to your third point - in order to know GOD you have to seek GOD. And even though if I were to ask you if you have indeed sought GOD - you may say you have or may even think you have - but we both already know you havent dont we. You see , in GOD’s Creation there is one thing you can never do - lie about looking for GOD. Because we know as Christians , that ANYONE who Seeks finds - who knocks has the door opened who asks receives. That no one who wants to know GOD is left in the dark. So if you show me someone who claims to have sought GOD and claims to still be left in darkness I will show you a liar, both to me , to GOD and more importantly to himself. Without exception.

Pax
 
Robert_Burns said:
Regarding point 2 - the Catholic Church is FOLLOWING its founder. Its Founder is the Revealed Son of GOD , revealed by GOD. The Catholic Church doesnt claim anything. It does as instructed by Jesus Christ in the Deposit of Faith as guided by the Holy Ghost who in turn guides the Magisterium and the Vicar of Christ and has since Pentecost Sunday. That is History. Look it up. No one needs to prove historic events.

As to your second point - the Catholic Faith is not based on the Carnal but on the Spiritual. If you fail to understand the Spiritual Design of the Faith then you fail to form an opinion based on the structure. When we Pray to GOD - we do not see GOD. Hense the term Faith. When GOD answers that prayer with something tangible we dont see GOD then either. If we saw GOD as a Carnal Manifestation every time he answered a prayer would it make our faith stronger , have no effect , or weaker? I say weaker.

As to your third point - in order to know GOD you have to seek GOD. And even though if I were to ask you if you have indeed sought GOD - you may say you have or may even think you have - but we both already know you havent dont we. You see , in GOD’s Creation there is one thing you can never do - lie about looking for GOD. Because we know as Christians , that ANYONE who Seeks finds - who knocks has the door opened who asks receives. That no one who wants to know GOD is left in the dark. So if you show me someone who claims to have sought GOD and claims to still be left in darkness I will show you a liar, both to me , to GOD and more importantly to himself. Without exception.

Pax
Click to expand...
I just don’t have it in me to take things on faith. When people make business dealings they generally sign contracts regarding payment–they could take it on faith that the other person will pay them, but they want proof.

Do you think if I had the ability to believe something based on faith I would choose not to? Of course I would like to believe I will be reunited with my deceased loved ones; of course I want to believe that I can have eternal life free from pain and discomfort.
 
freethinker83 said:
I just don’t have it in me to take things on faith. When people make business dealings they generally sign contracts regarding payment–they could take it on faith that the other person will pay them, but they want proof.

Do you think if I had the ability to believe something based on faith I would choose not to? Of course I would like to believe I will be reunited with my deceased loved ones; of course I want to believe that I can have eternal life free from pain and discomfort.
Click to expand...
An oral contract is morally binding. Therefore - basing ones moral outlook on the immorality of the people you deal with is not binding on the moral judgements of mens actions in the world that will occur on judgement day. Sure men can and will cheat other men. Your argument fails in that you think they get away with it. They dont. One day they will die and stand before GOD Who will ask them why they did those things.

Secondly - all men can pray. So the question isnt if they can - its if they do. As for making you promises - You dont pray to me - you pray to GOD. If you want things like this , I can only pray for you - I cannot answer your prayers. Jesus said my “Yoke is sweet and my burden is light.” What I fail to understand in people is one simple truth - with less effort than you have expended these past two days arguing with me - you could spend getting to know GOD who loves you and wants only your love in return. These things you want all men want because they are good. And GOD doesnt want anything for any one of us that we dont also want instinctively. We have to learn to sin. When we are little Children we dont have the scars from the immorality of men we have in adulthood. But we owe GOD. He doesnt owe us. Our next breath - our next heartbeat - our next paycheck - our next meal all are gifts from GOD that could end in the next few minutes should GOD decide your time or my time is up. One day we all will die. Period. There is no way out of this life still being alive and we pass to the next world where we no longer have the free will we have now in which to do the will of GOD. Jesus died and then on the third day rose again. If he didnt , then none of the apostles would have given their lives as martyrs. What is the upside? GOD can do no more for you. He has done all he can do to prove himself to man. Its now up to man , to prove himself before GOD. And in doing so - attain eternal life.

Pax
 
freethinker83 said:
I can’t name every possibility, but here are some I can think of.

Firsthand- God speaking directly to me or revealing himself to me in a very clear way.

Secondhand with evidence- A video or many trusted first-hand modern day accounts of a biblical type miracle. By biblical type miracle I mean something akin to walking on water, a sea parting, someone being raised from the dead, etc.

Also, something mainstream scientists may accept as scientific proof. I can’t describe this because it doesn’t yet exist.
Click to expand...
The problem with miracles is that, for some reason, they’re easy to ignore. The Israelites saw the the parting of the Red Sea, and they still rebelled against God in the wilderness. Jesus said that if one doesn’t believe Moses and the Prophets, he won’t believe even if someone comes back from the dead.

Your first idea seems more promising. Why don’t you ask God to reveal himself to you?
 
freethinker83 said:
The thing is, even a very devout Christian can say with 100% certainty that they are right, just as no atheist can say with 100% certainty that there is no God. You may be 99.999% certain, but in order to have faith I don’t think it can be 100%, or else faith isn’t needed.

According to some Christian sects Catholics are going to Hell.

I live a relatively peaceful life. I treat people as I would like to be treated and love my family and friends. I am not violent, nor do I commit crimes. I would hope that if I am wrong and there is a God he woudl see that I lived a relatively good life when it is over. Afterall, if he is willing to forgive murderers and rapists who accept him, I would hope he could accept a peaceful person who had doubts due to the logical mind given to him by God.
Click to expand...
Hey freethinker

Peace to you. I have a question. How can science be an accurate means to prove whether something non-physical exists? God does not have the properties needed for scientific data. I do understand why people would want a “scientific” proof but how would that even be possible? It seems that believers in God and believers in the “scientific proof” are always talking past each other on this point.
 
david_friol said:
Hey freethinker

Peace to you. I have a question. How can science be an accurate means to prove whether something non-physical exists? God does not have the properties needed for scientific data. I do understand why people would want a “scientific” proof but how would that even be possible? It seems that believers in God and believers in the “scientific proof” are always talking past each other on this point.
Click to expand...
Science can prove that non physical things exist. Think of light, sound, x-rays, etc.
 
I don’t know if this has been brought up already because the thread is 7 pages long and I certainly haven’t read it all. However, the man who made those videos (VenomFangX) is extremely anti-Catholic. I believe he’s a Calvinist, but in any case most of his videos deal with bashing and ‘refuting’ the Church. I would stay away from him, even if he makes a good scientific video or two. Peter Kreeft is an excellent philosopher; he is also Catholic. His website is fantastic and there are videos of him on YouTube. Stick with Kreeft and stay away from VenomFang.
 
freethinker83 said:
Science can prove that non physical things exist. Think of light, sound, x-rays, etc.
Click to expand...
I’m afraid that both light and x-rays both have physical properties(very tiny particles) and as for sound I found this for you:"Sound is generated by creating a disturbance of the air, which sets up a series of pressure waves fluctuating above and below the air’s normal atmospheric pressure, much as a stone that falls in water generates expanding ripples on the surface. Unlike the water waves, however, these pressure waves propagate in all directions from the source of the sound. Our ears sense these pressure fluctuations, convert them to electrical impulses, and send them to our brain, where they are interpreted as sound.

There are many sources of sound in buildings: voices, human activities, external noises such as traffic, entertainment devices and machinery. They all generate small rapid variations in pressure about the static atmospheric pressure; these propagate through the air as sound waves."

I hope that clarifies a little. Now those three things can be scientifically examined because of their physical properties or the effects the have in the physical order in the case of sound perhaps. But God is by nature immaterial if he in fact does exist, which I do believe. So in regards to your last post science is the study of the material world and therefore can not “probe”(if you will) God.
 
freethinker83 said:
I just don’t have it in me to take things on faith. When people make business dealings they generally sign contracts regarding payment–they could take it on faith that the other person will pay them, but they want proof.

Do you think if I had the ability to believe something based on faith I would choose not to? Of course I would like to believe I will be reunited with my deceased loved ones; of course I want to believe that I can have eternal life free from pain and discomfort.
Click to expand...
You do not give your self enough credit, Freethinker. Of course you have the ability to believe things based on faith. Now, I am unsure of your domestic situation, but I am almost certain that you believe that your mother is in fact your mother. She was in the room giving birth to you and I am fairly certain there were no pictures taken or anything like that. You believe it without a single doubt. You might have a birth certificate and parental documents saying it but that does not amount to 100% rock-solid proof. Your mother saying “I gave birth to you” and living out her duty as a parent are more than enough evidence for you to believe it but it is not rock-solid proof. It is a truth that surpasses all reality for you (unless you do have bad domestic situations which I hope this is not the case).

I am sure you know for 100% certitude that Moscow exists on the map. (Or pick a city that you have never been to.) Maps, documents, witnesses, events, etc… These do not amount to 100% perfect proof, but we do have certitude that these things exist. These people and papers as evidence could just as easily be really really sneaky lies but that does not even cross our minds. Nobody needs the proof you are talking about. We would like it with certain things, like court cases, medical diagnoses and such, but it is not something we need it comes to believing things, yet we know without a doubt.

There are plenty of other examples that we take almost for granted every single day. The list is endless.

I am not saying for you to believe in God (although I certainly hope you go that route); I am just saying to give yourself more credit in your ability to believe things based purely on faith.

Take care buddy
 
JackQ said:
Photons aren’t physical? Why do they call it physics?
Click to expand...
In physics, a photon is an elementary particle, the quantum of the electromagnetic interaction and the basic unit of light and all other forms of electromagnetic radiation. In other words a photon is a little packet of energy which can carry electromagnetic radiation. It is also the force carrier for the electromagnetic force. The effects of this force are easily observable at both the microscopic and macroscopic level, because the photon has no rest mass; this allows for interactions at long distances. Like all elementary particles, photons are currently best explained by quantum mechanics and will exhibit wave–particle duality, exhibiting properties of both waves and particles. For example, a single photon may be refracted by a lens or exhibit wave interference with itself, but also act as a particle giving a definite result when quantitative momentum is measured.
 
GreggAlvarez said:
You do not give your self enough credit, Freethinker. Of course you have the ability to believe things based on faith. Now, I am unsure of your domestic situation, but I am almost certain that you believe that your mother is in fact your mother. She was in the room giving birth to you and I am fairly certain there were no pictures taken or anything like that. You believe it without a single doubt. You might have a birth certificate and parental documents saying it but that does not amount to 100% rock-solid proof. Your mother saying “I gave birth to you” and living out her duty as a parent are more than enough evidence for you to believe it but it is not rock-solid proof. It is a truth that surpasses all reality for you (unless you do have bad domestic situations which I hope this is not the case).

I am sure you know for 100% certitude that Moscow exists on the map. (Or pick a city that you have never been to.) Maps, documents, witnesses, events, etc… These do not amount to 100% perfect proof, but we do have certitude that these things exist. These people and papers as evidence could just as easily be really really sneaky lies but that does not even cross our minds. Nobody needs the proof you are talking about. We would like it with certain things, like court cases, medical diagnoses and such, but it is not something we need it comes to believing things, yet we know without a doubt.

There are plenty of other examples that we take almost for granted every single day. The list is endless.

I am not saying for you to believe in God (although I certainly hope you go that route); I am just saying to give yourself more credit in your ability to believe things based purely on faith.

Take care buddy
Click to expand...
Gregg, you are making a good point here about accepting, with a high degree of certainty, a “belief” that certain repeated observable empirical events have a truth to them. This is different from faith in God, where one does not have repeated observable empirical data to refer to to assess the truth of the assertion that there is a God. I “believe” that when I step out of bed I will not float to the ceiling, because that has not happened once in the prior 50 years of my getting out of bed each day. But that is very different from saying that I “believe” that there is a God that hears my prayers. I have no repeated empirical experience to bolster the latter “belief.”
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top