Scott Hahn

[Cinette]

I thought you were a recent convert? Now you’re an old-fashioned Catholic?

Anyhow, Catholics are allowed to believe a range of things about the Creation story. Both things you wrote about above are allowable - allegory or literally true.

Mea Culpa, Mea maxima culpa!!

When Deborah said she was an old-fashioned Catholic she meant exactly that - you can be a new Catholic and adhere to old fashioned ideas.!! :whacky:

That is my interpretation

 

[notsmart]

i notice your profile says you haven’t figured religion out yet, so how are you to tell me how i read the Bible. maybe you are not smart after all!

also, this thread is about Scott Hahn - not about allegory.

I am asking how you as a catholic can say you do not read the Adam and Eve account as allegorical, and I asked you how do you determine what is and is not allegorical.
Then I asked if none of the bible was allegorical?

I am not allowed to ask this of you because you are a convert?

 

[anon52328184]

Mea Culpa, Mea maxima culpa!!

When Deborah said she was an old-fashioned Catholic she meant exactly that - you can be a new Catholic and adhere to old fashioned ideas.!! :whacky:

That is my interpretation

thank you cinette. i am glad that you understood what i meant!

 

[notsmart]

i notice your profile says you haven’t figured religion out yet, so how are you to tell me how i read the Bible. maybe you are not smart after all!

also, this thread is about Scott Hahn - not about allegory.

I can’t tell you how you read the bible. You are here to tell me how you read the bible.

 

[anon52328184]

I am asking how you as a catholic can say you do not read the Adam and Eve account as allegorical, and I asked you how do you determine what is and is not allegorical.
Then I asked if none of the bible was allegorical?

I am not allowed to ask this of you because you are a convert?

being a convert shouldn’t have anything to do with it. maybe you have missed some of my earlier posts, but i think i have already answered this.

why do YOU as someone who hasn’t figured religion out yet, feel that I need to explain to YOU how I interpret the Bible or why I interpret it as I do.

 

[Cinette]

You bet its a topic for another thread. Parish priests DO NOT take a vow of poverty!

Who told you this?

Perhaps you are correct. I will check it out. I do remember one ordination when this was the case.

My Sunday Parish is in the care of Jesuits and I am close to them as I also belong to the SVP and attend a lot of talks there. They “earn” $140 per month.

My other parish which is two blocks from my home is in the care of Fr Harry. The Parish is very affuent and there is a lot of money . I know someone left him about $300 000 once and he donated it to the Parish Council towards the building of a centre. They dedicated it to him but Fr Harry drives a very modest car and sometimes I see him in the coffee shops -he plays golf on hisday off but there is no crime in that. The Jesuits don’t have the time - the parish is next to the University and they are active there and at the hospitals etc. AND they teach - lots of talks and debates etc.

Still, we need more vocations! Oh I know I am off topic. forgive me

 

[Joe_5859]

He is currently a Professor of Theology and Scripture at Franciscan University of Steubenville, where he has taught since 1990, and is the founder and director of the Saint Paul Center for Biblical Theology. In 2005, he was appointed as the Pope Benedict XVI Chair of Biblical Theology and Liturgical Proclamation at St. Vincent Seminary in Latrobe, Pennsylvania.

the above is found on Dr. Scott Hahn’s web site. I’ve heard some people comment on that Dr. Scott Hahn is not really a theologian and that he doesn’t write in the top tier journals, and so on. I think the underlined portion will dispute that.

Its funny how some people make such ridiculous claims. For those who do not know each of his books contain the Nihil Obstat and the Imprimatur. they are official declarations that the material you are reading is free from doctrinal or moral err. think about that for a while.

Also, the St. Paul Center has a section of their website dedicated to academic articles written by Dr. Hahn:

Academic Articles

I think the people that claim he hasn’t written academic articles haven’t kept up with what he’s been doing the past 5 years.

 

[notsmart]

Cinette, you are truly a blessing to the Catholic Church.

Just try to find anyone here that will prove a parish priest takes a vow a poverty, and I will take it up with the parish priest who told me they DONT.

Give me the green light, and I will.

Jesuits are another matter, and there is one in my parish.

(not a member, but attender)

Perhaps you are correct. I will check it out. I do remember one ordination when this was the case.

My Sunday Parish is in the care of Jesuits and I am close to them as I also belong to the SVP and attend a lot of talks there. They “earn” $140 per month.

My other parish which is two blocks from my home is in the care of Fr Harry. The Parish is very affuent and there is a lot of money . I know someone left him about $300 000 once and he donated it to the Parish Council towards the building of a centre. They dedicated it to him but Fr Harry drives a very modest car and sometimes I see him in the coffee shops -he plays golf on hisday off but there is no crime in that. The Jesuits don’t have the time - the parish is next to the University and they are active there and at the hospitals etc. AND they teach - lots of talks and debates etc.

Still, we need more vocations! Oh I know I am off topic. forgive me

 

[notsmart]

being a convert shouldn’t have anything to do with it. maybe you have missed some of my earlier posts, but i think i have already answered this.

why do YOU as someone who hasn’t figured religion out yet, feel that I need to explain to YOU how I interpret the Bible or why I interpret it as I do.

You are here on an apologetics board.

Read Peter and find out why you must prove your beliefs, since you read the bible.
Or should I tell you why?

 

[anon52328184]

oh, i suppose you are going to tell me that Jesus sitting down at the Last Supper with the 12 apostles is an allegory.

frankly, notsmart. you might be impressed with everything you know and how intelligent you are, but i am not. yawn!!
and i really don’t care about which parts of the bible you think are an allegory and which aren’t.

this thread is not about allegories. it is about scott hahn.

 

[Joe_5859]

In regards to the allegorical / literal debate that has cropped up, let’s not forget to consult our Catechism. There are four senses of Scripture. The founational sense is the literal sense, but there is also an allegorical sense. It’s both/and, people!

CCC 115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.

CCC 116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: “All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal.” [83]

CCC 117 The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God’s plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.

1. The allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ’s victory and also of Christian Baptism. [84]

1. The moral sense. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written “for our instruction”. [85]

1. The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, “leading”). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem. [86]

CCC 118 A medieval couplet summarizes the significance of the four senses:

The Letter speaks of deeds; Allegory to faith;
The Moral how to act; Anagogy our destiny. [87]

[83] St. Thomas Aquinas, *STh *I, 1, 10, ad I.
[84] Cf. *1 Cor *10:2.
[85] *1 Cor *10:11; cf. *Heb *3:1-4:11.
[86] Cf. *Rev *21:1-22:5.
[87] Lettera gesta docet, quid credas allegoria, moralis quid agas, quo tendas anagogia; Augustine of Dacia, Rotulus pugillaris, I: ed. A. Walz: Angelicum 6 (1929) 256.

 

[notsmart]

oh, i suppose you are going to tell me that Jesus sitting down at the Last Supper with the 12 apostles is an allegory.

frankly, notsmart. you might be impressed with everything you know and how intelligent you are, but i am not. yawn!!
and i really don’t care about which parts of the bible you think are an allegory and which aren’t.

this thread is not about allegories. it is about scott hahn.

I never mentioned the Last Supper. To be frank, I think its the crux of everything.
I do not see it as an allegory.
I see it very literally.
I am asking you to share the hope you have.

If this is it, well----

God bless you

But, you are not at all going to win many over with this style of …???

Peace

I can see why you were the reason for this thread…

Poor cathesis.

Scott Hahn is a very educated man.

He does not use your tactics.

 

[Mea_Culpa]

I am only talking about the Genesis creation stories. But look more, Jesus constantly used parables and allegories.

Parables and allegories are not the same thing. (Do some research and find out the difference.)

There wasn’t really a prodigal son,

How do you know?

for instance, it is a story designed to convey a crucial truth about the human condition. If Scott Hahn or anyone said, “the prodigal son was only wearing one sandal, and that is why he was walking slow so his dad had to run out and meet him,” you would dismiss it as idle speculation that missed the point completely.

Scott Hahn doesn’t speculate on things that aren’t in the creation story. He analyzes what the devil says, not makes up something like whether or not the prodigal son is wearing one sandal.

It would be like Dr. Hahn commenting on the fact that the prodigal son is working taking care of pigs and actually envies the pigs the food they are eating. That really is written in the story. Dr. Hahn could (and does, in a commentary on this parable) note that this shows just how far the prodigal son has fallen, to be a Jew working caring for pigs and actually envying them for the food they are eating.

Also, you say the story of the prodigal son “it is a story designed to convey a crucial truth about the human condition.” Jesus told this story to the Pharisees and scribes who were complaining that he spent too much time with sinners. Who is telling the creation story, and who are they telling it to? The creation story isn’t presented as a parable told to a specific audience for a specific purpose, so it would be wrong to read it the same way we would read one of the parables of Jesus.

 

[mtr01]

This is by far the craziest thread I’ve seen on these forums.

I’ll second that.

One thing is for certain, Scott Hahn certainly has entered the cult of personality. It’s amazing how many people “flipped out” when someone criticized him

 

[AnyoneAnybody]

Parish priests do not take a vow of poverty.
Scott Hahn did not take a vow of poverty.

I’ll bet Scott donates at least 10% to the church. It’s his business.

Where is this going? Ah. Funland away…

QUOTE=Cinette;4108411]Perhaps you are correct. I will check it out. I do remember one ordination when this was the case.

My Sunday Parish is in the care of Jesuits and I am close to them as I also belong to the SVP and attend a lot of talks there. They “earn” $140 per month.

My other parish which is two blocks from my home is in the care of Fr Harry. The Parish is very affuent and there is a lot of money . I know someone left him about $300 000 once and he donated it to the Parish Council towards the building of a centre. They dedicated it to him but Fr Harry drives a very modest car and sometimes I see him in the coffee shops -he plays golf on hisday off but there is no crime in that. The Jesuits don’t have the time - the parish is next to the University and they are active there and at the hospitals etc. AND they teach - lots of talks and debates etc.

Still, we need more vocations! Oh I know I am off topic. forgive me

 

[anon52328184]

i have just about enough brain power left tonight to appreciate what joe posted, but, like i said, notsmart, i am tired of this allegory argument you seem so intent on pushing on me.

i read the bible in the literal sense and the spiritual sense. if there are some instances, like moses parting the red sea, that can be read in the allegorical sense, fine, i will look at it from that point of view also. however, when i sit down to read the Bible, i don’t look for allegories in everything i read.

 

[notsmart]

I’ll second that.

One thing is for certain, Scott Hahn certainly has entered the cult of personality. It’s amazing how many people “flipped out” when someone criticized him

It’s more amazing how many did criticize him with no theology backround.

Calls to mind- “Holier than the Pope”

Stuff for the SSPX to revel in.

 

[notsmart]

i have just about enough brain power left tonight to appreciate what joe posted, but, like i said, notsmart, i am tired of this allegory argument you seem so intent on pushing on me.

i read the bible in the literal sense and the spiritual sense. if there are some instances, like moses parting the red sea, that can be read in the allegorical sense, fine, i will look at it from that point of view also. however, when i sit down to read the Bible, i don’t look for allegories in everything i read.

Deborah,

Please understand I am not arguing with you, but simply trying to understand the comments you make, and how you base your position.

This is not personal, as I am sure you are a excellent faith filled christian.

I just never thought there was a bad question.

Apparently, there can be. If you have no answer.

I am happy to know you.

Even though, you felt it was needed to mention I am not christian, as if that alone bolstered your position.

Its no big deal to me.

 

[anon52328184]

i just said your profile said you hadn’t figured out religion yet.

i have been a christian since i was baptized in 1954, but there were many years that i didn’t have religion figured out yet either. and, i will confess, i still don’t. i will be trying to figure it out until i breathe my last breath probably.

i am sure there are many jewish people who were bar mitzvahed or bat mitzvahed who don’t have it figured out either.

we are all in the same boat.

i wasn’t there when the hebrews decided which books were going to be in the Hebrew Bible and i wasn’t there when the Gospels were composed or
they decided what was going to complete the New Testament.

sometimes you just have to jump in feet first. you can sit on the sidelines your whole life saying you don’t have everything figured out. and if you wait until you have it all figured out, it might be too late.

 

[mtr01]

It’s more amazing how many did criticize him with no theology backround.

Calls to mind- “Holier than the Pope”

Stuff for the SSPX to revel in.

I didn’t see that at all in the thread (notwithstanding the ‘skewed’ monetary gain critics). There were only a handful of posters who were critical. They may or may not have a theology background, but that really is immaterial to the argument.

Let’s say I have no theological background (which I do), but have read a great deal of the fathers (which I have), and posit that Scott Hahn’s approach to Adam’s fall is novel, and finds no precedent in the Church Fathers; therefore I am skeptical of such an approach.

That’s not a case of “holier than the pope”