Scott Hahn

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jim_Baur
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Scott Hahn is a great guy, a gentleman and a scholar.

I have read a number of his books and have attended several of his lectures. Here’s a photo of us taken at a Scripture conference in 2010.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
The problem is with that statement you are making two assumptions.
  1. That there can be more than one ‘truth’. Truth is not subjective. It’s either true or not.
  2. You’re making the assumption Scott Hahn is wrong because you don’t agree with him.
As a protestant converting to Catholicism, Scott Hahn has been one of the most influential teachers for me. I come from nearly the same background that he does (without as much education in theology.) To be able to see someone who struggled with the exact same problems I had with the Catholic church explain it in a way that not only satisfies my problems, but clarifies why they aren’t problems, just misunderstandings.

I’d suggest that if you really don’t agree with him, read all of his work. I haven’t read all of it, but I’ve found very little in it that a protestant would have a problem with, unless they just didn’t ‘want’ to agree.
I find Scott Hahn to be a great man, in many ways. Now to be honest, I personally don’t agree with - or have come to disagree with - some of the ideas which he has been proposing (for example, the ‘Fourth Cup’ typology and the identification of Melchizedek with Shem), but I still respect him as a very able scholar and theologian. Rome Sweet Home was a good read, I’ll tell you. 🙂

Now to get to the heart of all this. The way I read him, Contarini wasn’t saying that Scott is ‘wrong’: rather, he was just pointing out that his opinions are not dogma binding on all Catholics. And I agree with him. Sure, a lot of what he says are all good and true, but Scott Hahn is not all there is. Scott is entitled to his own views just as you and I are entitled to ours, just as long as we’re not steering away from the Faith (that’s what I like about being Catholic: you can have some elbow room in a number of areas :p). I mean, I can still acknowledge Scott’s influence and knowledge without totally agreeing with all that he says: that’s what free will is for, after all. 😉

A while before I saw this thread, I was actually reading about the whole controversy surrounding Fr. Corapi, which led me to think that it is somewhat unfortunate that there are some Catholics out there who seem to make their favorite theologian/apologist the litmus test of orthodoxy, as Contarini says “a kind of magisterium”: you’ve got to like this or that person and proclaim that he’s one of the finest human beings to grace the planet, and give full assent to each and everything that he or she says or thinks, otherwise your faith becomes suspect and the ‘fanboys’ (excuse the term) of said person will damn you up and down. Scott enjoys popularity amongst Catholic circles as you mention because of the fact that he is a convert who was once ‘on the other side’, and I’ll admit that he does deserve some recognition for his experience and his knowledge. But sometimes, we humans, fallen creatures that we are, can construct too high a pedestal for our ‘celebrities’ and worship them thereon. We get so focused on the persons who convey the Truth, that we lose sight of the Truth that they are trying to convey. It’s no longer about Jesus Christ, but Jimmy Akin or Scott Hahn or Karl Keating or Patrick Madrid or what-have-you. It’s kind of like what St. Paul was criticizing in one of his letters:

I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

(1 Corinthians 1:10-17 ESV)
 
This is true, but doesn’t really answer my question. I wish I could be more specific about the criticisms levied against him, that way it might be easier to address. Sorry. I’m thinking that maybe there was something about his depth or lack thereof. Or something about bringing “baggage” from his days as a Protestant. I never had any problem with him at all. But that’s me ;).
I don’t know if I could answer your questions, but my main disagreements with Scott’s views are on pretty trivial matters such as the symbolism of the Fourth Cup of the Passover meal and the identification of Melchizedek with Shem Noah’s son. I disagree with the first as it is commonly explained simply due to the fact that we don’t exactly know how Passover meals were like in the 1st century (what they did, what they said, etc.): the order of the Passover Seder as Jews perform it today only started to take its present shape after the Temple was destroyed and Judaism was centralized and standardized. So it’s more of a case of possible insertion of an historical anachronism.

As for Melchizedek being Shem, yes, it is a view that has gained some supporters throughout history starting from the Talmudic rabbis, but this is ultimately based on an interpretation of the Hebrew (Masoretic) text, which has Shem still alive at the time of Abram/Abraham. (I wrote about this in a thread not too long ago.) One main divergence between the text of Genesis in the Masoretic version, the Greek Septuagint, and the Samaritan Torah is in the ages of the patriarchs: so while Shem would have been alive in Abram’s time in the Masoretic Genesis, he is apparently already dead if we go by the Greek Septuagint and the Samaritan text. In fact, it was precisely because the early Christians had used the Greek Bible that this view was originally mostly unknown among the early Fathers, limited to those who had access to the Hebrew text and rabbinics. Some of those who seem to be aware of both traditions apparently tried to harmonize them by saying things like Melchizedek being Shem’s (one of the two persons who should have really blessed Abram, the other being Abram’s father Terah) proxy, or Shem bringing the young Melchizedek to Salem (usually specified as the site where Golgotha would be in the future) and then consecrating him to the priesthood.
 
Wow. How many years was it since he appeared in EWTN? I almost didn’t recognize him, what with the beard growing white and all. 😃
I saw Dr. Hahn in MD in 2011, and looked much like that picture, I was amused to see him in a mustache and glasses from a time closer to his conversion!
 
I attended a talk given by Dr. Hahn in Knoxville TN this past summer and it was everything I expected and more.

When I was going through my journey of conversion to the Catholic faith, it was Dr. Hahns books that helped me understand the Catholic Church in clear and understandable language. I learned more from just ONE book then I did from an entire year of RCIA.

Oh, just my personal opinion…I LOVED the Fourth Cup:thumbsup:
 
I saw Dr. Hahn in MD in 2011, and looked much like that picture, I was amused to see him in a mustache and glasses from a time closer to his conversion!
Oh yeah, the glasses. For some reason I’ve come to associate Scott with a pair of glasses. 😛
 
I think his books are excellent, especially The Lamb’s Supper, The Mass as Heaven on Earth.
I also like all the books he and his wife Kimberly co-authored.
Blessings.
Kathryn Ann
 
The problem is with that statement you are making two assumptions.
  1. That there can be more than one ‘truth’. Truth is not subjective. It’s either true or not.
Certainly. Nothing I said implied otherwise. Our understanding of truth, however, is most certainly subjective. No fallible human being’s writings are simply “the truth.” They no doubt contain truth.
  1. You’re making the assumption Scott Hahn is wrong because you don’t agree with him.
No–in fact you are making the assumption that I’m making that assumption:p.

I said nothing about him being wrong. I said that he was fallible.

I do disagree with him at times, but since I’m certainly fallible myself, it is quite possible that on those points he’s right and I’m wrong:D.

All I’m saying is that one should never say that people who don’t like a particular theologian do so because they “don’t like the truth.”
I’d suggest that if you really don’t agree with him, read all of his work. I haven’t read all of it, but I’ve found very little in it that a protestant would have a problem with, unless they just didn’t ‘want’ to agree.
Many of my disagreements with Hahn have little to do with Protestant/Catholic disagreements per se.

It isn’t really fair to tell someone to read all the work of someone they disagree with. If I read one thing by someone and don’t like it, I’m not obligated to read everything else the person has written. That would be a very poor use of my time, surely.

In fact I don’t particularly dislike Hahn–I owe him a lot as well. The fact that you respond to my very moderate post in this way underlines my point about the level of adulation Hahn is getting from some Catholics.

Edwin
 
You probably know this, but in case others don’t, Hahn comes from a Calvinist influenced protestant background and got his degree from (IIRC) Gordon Conwell prior to converting. If there’s a scholar out there able to separate the wheat from the chaff in Calvinism, I’d bet it’s him.
Yes, I know that, and that was my point–he does a very good job of this.

It is important to bear in mind, though, that he wasn’t a garden-variety Calvinist–he was by his own admission a member of a tiny splinter group (he makes this sound like the norm for Presbyterians, but actually it isn’t–as in any tradition, most people belong to a few large groups). According to some polemic I’ve seen against him, the church he pastored in Virginia was “Reconstructionist,” and certainly that fits his own account, even though he doesn’t explicitly describe himself that way.

Reconstructionists/theonomists are a small but very interesting movement within conservative Calvinism, often regarded as heretics by other Calvinists.

Many Catholics speak as if Hahn came out of mainstream conservative Protestantism, and that isn’t quite true.

Edwin
 
Certainly. Nothing I said implied otherwise. Our understanding of truth, however, is most certainly subjective. No fallible human being’s writings are simply “the truth.” They no doubt contain truth.

No–in fact you are making the assumption that I’m making that assumption:p.

I said nothing about him being wrong. I said that he was fallible.

I do disagree with him at times, but since I’m certainly fallible myself, it is quite possible that on those points he’s right and I’m wrong:D.

All I’m saying is that one should never say that people who don’t like a particular theologian do so because they “don’t like the truth.”

Many of my disagreements with Hahn have little to do with Protestant/Catholic disagreements per se.

It isn’t really fair to tell someone to read all the work of someone they disagree with. If I read one thing by someone and don’t like it, I’m not obligated to read everything else the person has written. That would be a very poor use of my time, surely.

In fact I don’t particularly dislike Hahn–I owe him a lot as well. The fact that you respond to my very moderate post in this way underlines my point about the level of adulation Hahn is getting from some Catholics.

Edwin
👍
 
I find Scott Hahn to be a great man, in many ways. Now to be honest, I personally don’t agree with - or have come to disagree with - some of the ideas which he has been proposing (for example, the ‘Fourth Cup’ typology and the identification of Melchizedek with Shem), but I still respect him as a very able scholar and theologian. Rome Sweet Home was a good read, I’ll tell you. 🙂

.
I would agree that these are fairly minor disagreements. In terms of the fourth cup for example, certainly we really ought not to see Judaism as somehow fixed and continuous, or even that Jewish traditions today have the same kind of consistency as even the Catholic Mass has. There was never the central authority in Judaism that would have made this possible. Traditions develop and grow and transform into a myriad of different variations according to the times and local customs.
Still, I think that the basic form of the Jewish Passover meal is present in the Last Supper and the crucifixion of the Lamb of God. Drinking in Judaism was likely very ritualized from early times, and is one of the reasons why Jews have never suffered from alcoholism as those from other cultures that drink alcohol often do. A fourth cup or more specifically a final cup denoting the end of the ceremonial drinking does seem to be in line with some of the symbolism within the scripture at any rate, and does give a fuller picture of the richness of the text.
More than this though, the nature of religiously inspired text is that no words are wasted, and every event that transpires is meaningful on a theological level. If not the fourth cup, then the last drink by Jesus is telling us something else that would further our spiritual growth in some way.
I do think you make a good case that Scott Hahn may have oversold us on the point of the Fourth Cup as far as history goes, but I nevertheless do see the same basic form of ritualized drinking being the constant, with the last cup bringing about the consummation of the entire ceremony.

As far as Melchizidek and Shem, while I do not know the whole story on this, what is important that Scott Hahn does very well, is to open up an understanding of the Gospel in the light of the whole of the Judeo-Christian tradition. It is important too, to also understand that a lot of the rabbinic and mishradic commentary on Scripture are not meant to be seen as literal, but are commentaries that often take an outlandish and even bizarre perspective which attempt to reveal a deeper truth about the Scripture itself. What I would be more interested in then, is not whether a son of Noah and Melchizidek are the same actual person, but why this would have been important to the commentators in the first place.

Sacred history may have introduced the world to linear thinking, but theological symbolism is in no way linear. Every symbol has not only an inner meaning that reveals the reasons for the scriptural event, but there are layers of meanings there to be discovered as well. There is no one final meaning to any symbol. Symbols point us to a transcendent truth, which is infinite and eternal.

Difficult history between Christian and Jews has often cut us off from some of the symbolic meanings of the text. Scott Hahn has been very effective at reintroducing us to that heritage, and giving a fuller picture of the true depth of scripture as a result.

Modern Protestant theology that he followed in which modern history and Armegeddon had been portrayed as the deeper meaning behind Scripture has played itself out to be pretty much a dud. The related ‘gospel as historical plot’ that consumed Hahn’s younger years has turned out to be fruitless for him as far as revealing what Scripture was actually trying to tell us.

I think he has opened a door for us with the kind of theology he does, with seeing the Mass as the better expression of the Book of Revelation, or of looking at the Judeo-Christian tradition in its entirety for the better understanding of the the Passion of Christ.

Many Protestants(and Catholics) turned to literalism as a reaction to the higher criticism of the bible that confronted Christianity in the last century. Scott has in the end rejected that, and has us look for the meaning of Scripture with history mainly as the backdrop only, but not the central feature.
I agree that it would be a mistake to make dogma out of his theology. His is not the final word on Scripture; he has merely opened a door for many Catholics nevertheless on how better to look upon Scripture to discover the meanings that it still has for our lives.
 
I would agree that these are fairly minor disagreements. In terms of the fourth cup for example, certainly we really ought not to see Judaism as somehow fixed and continuous, or even that Jewish traditions today have the same kind of consistency as even the Catholic Mass has. There was never the central authority in Judaism that would have made this possible. Traditions develop and grow and transform into a myriad of different variations according to the times and local customs.
Still, I think that the basic form of the Jewish Passover meal is present in the Last Supper and the crucifixion of the Lamb of God. Drinking in Judaism was likely very ritualized from early times, and is one of the reasons why Jews have never suffered from alcoholism as those from other cultures that drink alcohol often do. A fourth cup or more specifically a final cup denoting the end of the ceremonial drinking does seem to be in line with some of the symbolism within the scripture at any rate, and does give a fuller picture of the richness of the text.
More than this though, the nature of religiously inspired text is that no words are wasted, and every event that transpires is meaningful on a theological level. If not the fourth cup, then the last drink by Jesus is telling us something else that would further our spiritual growth in some way.
I do think you make a good case that Scott Hahn may have oversold us on the point of the Fourth Cup as far as history goes, but I nevertheless do see the same basic form of ritualized drinking being the constant, with the last cup bringing about the consummation of the entire ceremony.

As far as Melchizidek and Shem, while I do not know the whole story on this, what is important that Scott Hahn does very well, is to open up an understanding of the Gospel in the light of the whole of the Judeo-Christian tradition. It is important too, to also understand that a lot of the rabbinic and mishradic commentary on Scripture are not meant to be seen as literal, but are commentaries that often take an outlandish and even bizarre perspective which attempt to reveal a deeper truth about the Scripture itself. What I would be more interested in then, is not whether a son of Noah and Melchizidek are the same actual person, but why this would have been important to the commentators in the first place.

Sacred history may have introduced the world to linear thinking, but theological symbolism is in no way linear. Every symbol has not only an inner meaning that reveals the reasons for the scriptural event, but there are layers of meanings there to be discovered as well. There is no one final meaning to any symbol. Symbols point us to a transcendent truth, which is infinite and eternal.

Difficult history between Christian and Jews has often cut us off from some of the symbolic meanings of the text. Scott Hahn has been very effective at reintroducing us to that heritage, and giving a fuller picture of the true depth of scripture as a result.

Modern Protestant theology that he followed in which modern history and Armegeddon had been portrayed as the deeper meaning behind Scripture has played itself out to be pretty much a dud. The related ‘gospel as historical plot’ that consumed Hahn’s younger years has turned out to be fruitless for him as far as revealing what Scripture was actually trying to tell us.

I think he has opened a door for us with the kind of theology he does, with seeing the Mass as the better expression of the Book of Revelation, or of looking at the Judeo-Christian tradition in its entirety for the better understanding of the the Passion of Christ.

Many Protestants(and Catholics) turned to literalism as a reaction to the higher criticism of the bible that confronted Christianity in the last century. Scott has in the end rejected that, and has us look for the meaning of Scripture with history mainly as the backdrop only, but not the central feature.
I agree that it would be a mistake to make dogma out of his theology. His is not the final word on Scripture; he has merely opened a door for many Catholics nevertheless on how better to look upon Scripture to discover the meanings that it still has for our lives.
👍 to you also. 🙂
 
Wouldn’t baptism be the oath part? I’ve seen Hahn on EWTN repeating Zwingli’s argument about the sacraments being like “soldiers’ oaths.” Which surprised but delighted me–I think it’s great that Hahn is bringing the positive aspects of Zwingli’s theology into Catholicism, without the reductionistic denial of the Real Presence which was Zwingli’s great heresy.

I too have found Hahn’s emphasis on covenant to be very helpful over the years. I don’t agree with everything he says by any means, but at the end of the day the basic reason I can’t get away from the pull toward “Rome” is that I think Jesus established His covenant with St. Peter, and I need to be in a covenant relationship with Peter’s successor in order to follow Jesus fully.

Edwin
To be fair that was St. Augustine’s argument before it was Zwingli’s.

God Bless
 
I’d be interested in knowing if his Presbyterian upbringing influenced his Covenent Theology at all; I only bring that up as I’m studying Dispentionalism, a branch of Evangelical thought that runs counter to Presbyeterian Covenent Theology - I tend to come down on the side of Dr. Scott Hahn, but I’d be interested if there was a connection between his upbringing in the Presbyterian church and his current theological viewpoint which, as I said, I concur with.
 
Can you please point me the best route of getting to his materials?

Thanks.

In Him,

Jose
 
Hahn is good at repackaging and presenting Patristics which is great for those who are not familiar to them. Also, he has a considerable knowledge of the Bible. He is a great public speaker. He is a good apologist.

As a theologian though it is the points that Patrick brought up that must be looked at because their are in one case championed by him and in another developed by him. I am not sold on the Shem as Melchizedek. However, I was actually quite impressed with his Fourth cup “discovery”.

I realize that the amount of knowledge of Seder before the temple destruction is limited but I agree with Darryl that these must be a consistency. I have not, however, read his thesis that makes reference to the research of the Seder at that time and have only heard or read him talking about it in a “it exists and I did the research” way.

Thank you both for what you have brought up.

Isaiah, their are talks by him available (St. Joseph’s Press for example but you can find him on youtube) and their are books. His books have his conversion story, which is good, and his explanations of theology (like The Lambs Supper). If you are wanting good conversion story for Rome Sweet Home. If you are wanting to read interpretations of Scripture any of his books are good. As an excellent public speaker even youtubing him is worth while.

As a last point, Scott Hahn is a part of the one true Church, but that does not mean that all of his interpretations are right. This is not a criticism just a fact. Even St. Aquinas and Augustine are not completely without error, but it would be silly to claim that therefore nothing the wrote is of any use.
 
There are many priests that could evangelize in this way but because of their priestly duties wouldn’t have time to.
.
In our parish (and diocese) there are many fewer priests than there were a couple decades ago.

I suppose a priest’s time is a scarce ‘commodity’ in general, but I wonder why priests have “duties” that take them AWAY from dynamic evangelization? especially priests who are specially trained or talented?

You might think that on a quarterly basis or some regular interval, there would be a chance for them give us more.
 
Yes, it’s surprising and somewhat disappointing that we can’t learn as much bible information from priests as we can from him.
Dr Hahn spent many years becoming a scholar in Scriptural theology. Scripture was the single focus of his graduate work. Priests, on the other hand, take a course of studies that is far greater in breadth. Moreover, the amount of time that they spend studying is usually less than the time spent earning a PhD. It’s surprising and somewhat disappointing that folks expect a priest – who has a wide range of responsibilities – to be a full-time Bible scholar. 😉
Priestly training involves a lot of cookie cutter thinking.
That’s a rather interesting statement. Care to elaborate?
He’s doing fewer shows for EWTN, I think, because he’s working on the OT version of the Ignatius Study Bible. He has set a high standard for himself to continue his own tradition of “life changing” bible study.
He also has a demanding schedule of academic commitments, at more than one university!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top