Scottish TLM Blocked By Bishop

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For all those who are nieve enough to believe there are not any forces opposing the TLM or traditional Catholic practices and principles in general, here is news out of Scotland:

"How sad to hear that plans to celebrate Mass in the Extraordinary Form in St Magnus Cathedral, Kirkwall – parts of which date back to 1137 – were recently blocked by the Catholic Bishop of Aberdeen, the Rt Rev Peter Moran. Sad but not surprising, since the Bishops of Scotland seem united in their determination to throw up as many obstacles as possible to the implementation of Summorum Pontificum."

blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/author/damianthompson/

Seeing as though the Pope has given permission for the TLM/EF to be offered without the permission of the local bishop, is this local bishop disobeying? Could this be grounds for ex-communication?
 
Ockham said:
For all those who are nieve enough to believe there are not any forces opposing the TLM or traditional Catholic practices and principles in general, here is news out of Scotland:

"How sad to hear that plans to celebrate Mass in the Extraordinary Form in St Magnus Cathedral, Kirkwall – parts of which date back to 1137 – were recently blocked by the Catholic Bishop of Aberdeen, the Rt Rev Peter Moran. Sad but not surprising, since the Bishops of Scotland seem united in their determination to throw up as many obstacles as possible to the implementation of Summorum Pontificum."

blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/author/damianthompson/

Seeing as though the Pope has given permission for the TLM/EF to be offered without the permission of the local bishop, is this local bishop disobeying? Could this be grounds for ex-communication?
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Yes, he is being disobideant. I would say it is not grounds for excommunication has he is not teaching a heresy, but it may be grounds for removal for his post.
 
There’s a few oddities about this story that may require clarification. St Magnus Cathedral is not a Catholic Church. It has been a part of the Church of Scotland for centuries, and many ecumenical prayer services have been held there uniting all the denominations of Orkney. The Catholic church in Kirkwall is the parish of Our Lady and St Joseph in Main Street. I know this because I was lector there for one weekday mass whilst on holiday.

The priests in question, members of The Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer (F.SS.R.), while not suspended as such and in fact are in good standing, are still under a process of ‘normalisation’ by the Holy See, as they had been previously known as the Transalpine Congregation of the Most Holy Redeemer (C.SS.R.), a religious community affiliated with Society of St. Pius X. They are located on the island of Papa Stronsay, to the north of the island of Mainland in Orkney. In 2008 the petitioned the Vatican for reconciliation. While that has been accepted, as with any religious order, there is still other approvals to seek.

I’m not defending the Bishop here, as such, but I don’t think that the whole story is being told.

I’ve have been to Orkney many many times, and St Magnus Cathedral is an awesome church. There is no doubt in my mind that celebration of the TLM in that setting would be truly magnificent.

God bless

T
 
Ockham said:
Seeing as though the Pope has given permission for the TLM/EF to be offered without the permission of the local bishop, is this local bishop disobeying? Could this be grounds for ex-communication?
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Obviously yes and yes but only by ferendae sententiae. There aren’t any automatic excommunication grounds here.
 
ProVobis said:
Obviously yes and yes but only by ferendae sententiae. There aren’t any automatic excommunication grounds here.
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I’m not sure the first answer is “obviously yes.” I think the bishop is well within his authority to prohibit holding Mass in the cathedral of some other denomination, and I suspect that if some group in the US wanted to use a Methodist church for a Novus Ordo Mass and the bishop stepped in, the folks criticizing here would be the first to applaud.
 
Oh, and via a commenter at Father Z’s, here’s Father Finigan’s post (with pictures) on Bp. Moran celebrating a TLM with the F.SS.R. last June. So I’m pretty sure he’s not some comic-book villain twirling his mustache and plotting ways to exterminate real Catholicism.
 
" (Like all priests of the Church they are at liberty to celebrate the forma extraordinaria privately without specific permission, and to have some people with them when they do, but for public celebration the local bishop’s permission is needed.)”

It seems Bp Moran is ok with the UA being said privately (like last June) but not publically. This is in violation of SP.
 
MarkThompson said:
I’m not sure the first answer is “obviously yes.” I think the bishop is well within his authority to prohibit holding Mass in the cathedral of some other denomination, and I suspect that if some group in the US wanted to use a Methodist church for a Novus Ordo Mass and the bishop stepped in, the folks criticizing here would be the first to applaud.
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Unfortunately you left out the part where the Bishop said that any celebration of the Traditional Mass had to be approved. I do not think that is the case at all.
 
It appears that the problem lies with the fact that the priests who were to celebrate the EF do not have the faculties to do so at this time; also, the fact has been presented that the community of which these priests are members are, even now, "only recently reconciled to Rome."

This, coupled with the fact that Bishop Moran has recently celebrated the EF himself suggests that there is more to this than just “the bishop blocked the TLM.”
 
Timothysis said:
It appears that the problem lies with the fact that the priests who were to celebrate the EF do not have the faculties to do so at this time; also, the fact has been presented that the community of which these priests are members are, even now, "only recently reconciled to Rome."
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I don’t know if they don’t have the faculties or not, but I would imagine that the bigger problem is the permission the celebrate the Mass, Novus Ordo or TLM, in a non-Catholic Cathedral.

This raises a very touchy subject, for I do not know the exact circumstances of how it came under the Church of Scotland during the reformation. One can only imagine that it was not something that happened amicably! So, the point is, is it still canonically a Roman Catholic church, or does the Catholic church it as having been turned over to profane use and therefore has no claim on it. If is still considered Roman Catholic, then that’s a diplomatic can of worms! It would not serve well ecumenically for the Bishop to grant permission for ant Mass, NO or TLM, to be said there. In both cases, it would seem that the hierarchy of the CofS would have to get involved as well as the government of Kirkwall.

God bless

Tony
 
Ockham said:
" (Like all priests of the Church they are at liberty to celebrate the forma extraordinaria privately without specific permission, and to have some people with them when they do, but for public celebration the local bishop’s permission is needed.)”
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It seems Bp Moran’s words need repeating as they are flying right on by.
 
Ockham said:
" (Like all priests of the Church they are at liberty to celebrate the forma extraordinaria privately without specific permission, and to have some people with them when they do, but for public celebration the local bishop’s permission is needed.)”
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There is one little word in the quote that you seem to be stumbling with. It is the word they. They means the F.SS.R., and they are not fully normalised by Roman. Therefore, the celebration of ANY mass, NO or TLM, publicly by the F.SS.R. is subject to his permission. Privately is a different matter.

I am praying for my brothers in the F.SS.R. that soon they will be in a complete and full union with Rome, and that hope through Jesus Christ, will carry them through in willing submission.

God bless

Tony
 
Timothysis said:
It appears that the problem lies with the fact that the priests who were to celebrate the EF do not have the faculties to do so at this time; also, the fact has been presented that the community of which these priests are members are, even now, "only recently reconciled to Rome."

This, coupled with the fact that Bishop Moran has recently celebrated the EF himself suggests that there is more to this than just “the bishop blocked the TLM.”
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Is a Priest recently reconciled somehow less of a Priest than one who has been with the Church continuously? If not what does reconciliation actually mean? What is it good for? As far as faculties go the Bishop has the final say so in that does he not? Easily resolved. with just a word from the Bishop. In any event, even the SSPX Masses were considered valid. The Priests could not hear confessiosn etc but the Masses were valid.

No it looks to me like the Bishop is against public celebrations of the Traditional Mass in much the same was Cardinal Mahoney in Los Angeles was. OK in private, sometimes, but not OK in public and certainly not where people actually might want it
 
MIKE46 said:
Is a Priest recently reconciled somehow less of a Priest than one who has been with the Church continuously? If not what does reconciliation actually mean? What is it good for? As far as faculties go the Bishop has the final say so in that does he not? Easily resolved. with just a word from the Bishop. In any event, even the SSPX Masses were considered valid. The Priests could not hear confessiosn etc but the Masses were valid.

No it looks to me like the Bishop is against public celebrations of the Traditional Mass in much the same was Cardinal Mahoney in Los Angeles was. OK in private, sometimes, but not OK in public and certainly not where people actually might want it
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I will let agp2176 respond to this for me:
agp2176 said:
There is one little word in the quote that you seem to be stumbling with. It is the word they. They means the F.SS.R., and they are not fully normalised by Roman. Therefore, the celebration of ANY mass, NO or TLM, publicly by the F.SS.R. is subject to his permission.
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Perhaps the bishop does not want to extend faculties to a society who is not fully in communion with the Holy See. Does that sound extreme to you? It sounds rational to me. Besides, just because a mass is “valid” does not mean that it is the ideal. A mass chock full of abuses can still be valid but is not the rule by which we should measure others. As said in the article, Bishop Moran himself has celebrated the EF so it does not appear that it is a case of a bishop “not allowing the EF;” it sounds like he has legitimate concerns about the priests who would be doing the celebration.
 
From the blogspot of the Transalpine Redemptorists themselves

Last night I was surprised to be alerted to the article of Damian Thompson in The Telegraph blog. We had not been asked about this project as I am sure the organisers would state. It is true that our faculties for celebrating the Mass in public are restricted to the islands of Papa Stronsay and Stronsay.

I would like to give our friends and families an update on our process of canonical erection. To be as clear as possible I limit myself to saying that things are not at all easy for us.

Our seminarians, two of whom could be ordained to the priesthood, finish their studies this month and are not able to be ordained because we have not been canonically erected as yet. We ask for your prayers.

For the rest, let me invoke St. Arsenius as quoted by St. Alphonsus. I am thankful for their wisdom particularly in a time when one would like to speak from the heart; and loudly.

Restraint and silence are the better roads.

Devotedly,
Fr. Michael Mary, F.SS.R.
Rome, 15 May, 2010

This seems to clarify the issue, at least for me.
 
Ockham said:
" (Like all priests of the Church they are at liberty to celebrate the forma extraordinaria privately without specific permission, and to have some people with them when they do, but for public celebration the local bishop’s permission is needed.)”

It seems Bp Moran is ok with the UA being said privately (like last June) but not publically. This is in violation of SP.
Click to expand...
There seems to be one little word that is being missed here. I’ve blown it up so you don’t miss it again.

Does anyone know why the FSSR is not in full status anyway?
 
I was looking at Canon Law and found an interesting Canon.

It is true that the Bishop’s approval is needed to celebrate the Mass out side of a Catholic Church, which applies in this story as the Church in question is part of the Chruch of Scottland and not the Catholic Church.

The Canon I found is interesting becuase it speaks of Catholic Chapels. They also need the Bishop’s approval for any of the sacraments to be celebrated.

Can. 1228 Without prejudice to the provision of Can. 1227, the permission of the local Ordinary is required for the celebration of Mass and of other sacred functions in any private chapel.
This blog is really a non-issue and seems to be used to cause problems rather than looking to the truth as to why it has happened as it has.

Shame on all those promoting this as a disobedient bishop.
 
Can. 933 For a just cause and with the express permission of the local ordinary, a priest is permitted to celebrate the Eucharist in the ***place of worship of some Church or ecclesial community which does not have full communion with the Catholic Church ***so long as there is no scandal.

Perhaps the bishop is using his responsibility to uphold the divine honor and prevent scandal? This is clearly an issue under the bishop’s responsibility. Why anyone believes that this is an anti-TLM bias is beyond me, even if we remove the part about this group only recently coming into full communion with the Catholic Church. 🤷

According to Wikipedia, the cathedral is owned by the government.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Magnus_Cathedral
 
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