Scotus on Immaculate Conception

[garysibio]

I was watching a movie about Duns Scotus today. Well, I tried. It was mind-numbingly boring so I didn’t make it through the entire movie.

I was talking about it on Facebook with the man who pastored the Baptist church I used to attend and explained Scotus’ idea about a perfect Redeemer and how there had to be at least one person perfectly redeemed. In explaining it to him a question occurred to me, if Jesus could do this for Mary, why would He not also do it for everyone? The only answer I could think of was that it would have violated our free will. However, if it violates our free will, it would also have violated Mary’s free will. Any (name removed by moderator)ut?

 

[Julia_Mae]

We weren’t immaculately conceived.

 

[Like]

Mary did have free will & said yes! She was conceived without original sin, not without free will, but chose not to sin.

 

[garysibio]

We weren’t immaculately conceived.

Uh, you didn’t read my post carefully, did you? You completely missed my point. I was asking why, if Jesus could do this for His mother, why He wouldn’t do it for everyone? Why wasn’t everyone conceived immaculately? Why just Mary? And saying that Mary was His mother isn’t an answer. If my mother had cancer and I came up with a cure and only gave the cure to her but refused to give it to everyone else, I would be a jerk, not a hero unless there were other factors at work. I;m looking for those factors.

 

[garysibio]

Mary did have free will & said yes! She was conceived without original sin, not without free will, but chose not to sin.

My question was not really about whether Mary had free will or not.

 

[TimothyH]

My question was not really about whether Mary had free will or not.

Your question was exactly

Any (name removed by moderator)ut?

You asked for (name removed by moderator)ut. They gave you (name removed by moderator)ut. Two people have given you (name removed by moderator)ut, exactly as you have asked, and you have told both of that that they have missed the point and addressed questions which you did not ask. I don’t understand your frustration. They gave you exactly what you asked for - (name removed by moderator)ut.

We are all perfectly redeemed. Christ redeemed every single person - past, present and future - when he gave himself on the Cross. Christ’s death on the Cross is the perfect redemtive act - once for all - which redeems all mankind.

God gave a gift of purity, free from the stain of sin, to the one who was to be the vessel through which God would enter time and space. We celebrate that Mary was given that gift. We don’t wring our hands and complain because we weren’t given a gift, nor do we call God a jerk because he didn’t give it to everyone. We are happy for Mary, and thankful to God for having given her the gift, because through that gift we have recieved the one who has redeemed us, and a chance at salvation which we would not have had.

The gift he gave to Mary was a gift to the whole world, through her.

-Tim-

 

[garysibio]

Your question was exactly

You asked for (name removed by moderator)ut. They gave you (name removed by moderator)ut. Two people have given you (name removed by moderator)ut, exactly as you have asked, and you have told both of that that they have missed the point and addressed questions which you did not ask. I don’t understand your frustration. They gave you exactly what you asked for - (name removed by moderator)ut.

-Tim-

Tim, my question was quite simple: If Jesus could save Mary from the moment of her conception, He should be able to save us all from the moments of our conceptions. Why would He not do so? 2 Pet 3:9 says God wants everyone to come to Him.

I only mentioned free will to point out that it was not an answer to my question. You couldn’t say that Jesus could not have saved us all at the moment of our conception because we have free will without also saying that Jesus violated Mary’s free will by redeeming her at the moment of conception.

Is that any clearer? Do you now understand why telling me that Mary was Immaculately Conceived or that her free will was not violated did not answer my question?

 

[dmar198]

In explaining it to him a question occurred to me, if Jesus could do this for Mary, why would He not also do it for everyone?

God did not free all men from sin immediately because that would leave no witness to His perfect justice. Redeeming all men right at the beginning of their existence would be supremely merciful, but it would not teach us the severity of sin. The early Church Fathers dealt with a similar question: why didn’t God redeem man right at the moment Adam sinned? And their answer was that God wanted to teach us the severity of sin by allowing us to suffer its consequences.

 

[garysibio]

God did not free all men from sin immediately because that would leave no witness to His perfect justice. Redeeming all men right at the beginning of their existence would be supremely merciful, but it would not teach us the severity of sin. The early Church Fathers dealt with a similar question: why didn’t God redeem man right at the moment Adam sinned? And their answer was that God wanted to teach us the severity of sin by allowing us to suffer its consequences.

Thanks for your response.

Did being immaculately conceived result in Mary not understanding the severity of sin? I don’t think so. We know the severity of sin because it took Jesus’ crucifixion to deal with it. Even if we were all redeemed as Mary was, Jesus would still have had to die. Nothing would have changed there. We baptize infants which means that they are saved, at least until such time as they are culpable for any actual sins they commit. Does that result in taking sin less seriously? I don’t think so. As far as awareness of sin goes, there’s no real difference in being redeemed at conception or in being redeemed when you are a few days old.

 

[dmar198]

Thanks for your response.

Did being immaculately conceived result in Mary not understanding the severity of sin? I don’t think so. We know the severity of sin because it took Jesus’ crucifixion to deal with it. Even if we were all redeemed as Mary was, Jesus would still have had to die. Nothing would have changed there. We baptize infants which means that they are saved, at least until such time as they are culpable for any actual sins they commit. Does that result in taking sin less seriously? I don’t think so. As far as awareness of sin goes, there’s no real difference in being redeemed at conception or in being redeemed when you are a few days old.

It doesn’t make a difference in one person, but if the general population had none of the consequences of sin it would make a big difference in our perception of the severity of sin. Besides, God can teach us about sin in more than one way. Yes, Christ teaches us about sin and its gravity through His crucifixion, but He also teaches us through the universality of original sin.

 

[TimothyH]

Thanks for your response.

Did being immaculately conceived result in Mary not understanding the severity of sin? I don’t think so. We know the severity of sin because it took Jesus’ crucifixion to deal with it. Even if we were all redeemed as Mary was, Jesus would still have had to die. Nothing would have changed there. We baptize infants which means that they are saved, at least until such time as they are culpable for any actual sins they commit. Does that result in taking sin less seriously? I don’t think so. As far as awareness of sin goes, there’s no real difference in being redeemed at conception or in being redeemed when you are a few days old.

There seems to be a disconnect about some of the terminology, especially redemption.

Redemption is a term which comes out of how debtor’s prisons operated. When you paid someone’s debt and got them out of the debtor’s prision, you were redeeming them - paying the price - so that they could be released.

Having your debt paid and being released is redemption.

We are not redeemed at conception, or at birth, or at baptism. We were all redeemed when Christ died on the cross. God became man and died for us 2000 years ago outside of Jerusalem. That is the singluar act which, at that moment in time, redeemed all mankind. Nothing else must take place for our redemption.

Every person who ever lived or ever will live, including Mary, is equally redeemed by Christ’s death on the Cross.

-Tim-

 

[zz912]

There is no guarantee that if we were immaculately conceived that we would go through life without sinning. Adam and Eve were created without original sin, and yet they chose to sin.

 

[TimothyH]

Tim, my question was quite simple: If Jesus could save Mary from the moment of her conception, He should be able to save us all from the moments of our conceptions. Why would He not do so? 2 Pet 3:9 says God wants everyone to come to Him.

I only mentioned free will to point out that it was not an answer to my question. You couldn’t say that Jesus could not have saved us all at the moment of our conception because we have free will without also saying that Jesus violated Mary’s free will by redeeming her at the moment of conception.

Is that any clearer? Do you now understand why telling me that Mary was Immaculately Conceived or that her free will was not violated did not answer my question?

Yes, thank you. That is clearer.

I don’t have an answer, but as I previously stated, I don’t wonder why it didn’t happen to the rest of us but celebrate that this singular gift happend to at least one so that I could have a savior.

-Tim-

 

[ConstantineTG]

I was watching a movie about Duns Scotus today. Well, I tried. It was mind-numbingly boring so I didn’t make it through the entire movie.

I was talking about it on Facebook with the man who pastored the Baptist church I used to attend and explained Scotus’ idea about a perfect Redeemer and how there had to be at least one person perfectly redeemed. In explaining it to him a question occurred to me, if Jesus could do this for Mary, why would He not also do it for everyone? The only answer I could think of was that it would have violated our free will. However, if it violates our free will, it would also have violated Mary’s free will. Any (name removed by moderator)ut?

This is one of the great problems of the IC dogma and why Eastern Christians do not adopt this view. If God can do this for one, why not for all? Doesn’t it seem cruel? And of what necessity was it that it was done for one?

 

[TimothyH]

This is one of the great problems of the IC dogma and why Eastern Christians do not adopt this view. If God can do this for one, why not for all? Doesn’t it seem cruel? And of what necessity was it that it was done for one?

It has been revealed to us by God through the Church, confirmed as such when it was infallibly defined as Dogma. For a Catholic such as myself, that is enough.

And there is a basis in scripture.

-Tim-

 

[garysibio]

This is one of the great problems of the IC dogma and why Eastern Christians do not adopt this view. If God can do this for one, why not for all? Doesn’t it seem cruel? And of what necessity was it that it was done for one?

Although I didn’t ask about it, I have also wondered why Mary would be conceived immaculately. It is my understanding, although I’m certainly no expert on this, that the RCC does not teach that Mary had to be conceived immaculately.

 

[garysibio]

There is no guarantee that if we were immaculately conceived that we would go through life without sinning. Adam and Eve were created without original sin, and yet they chose to sin.

I agree 100% but, if Mary had free will which we all agree she did, she could have sinned also later in life. So, if the Immaculate Conception was good and fitting for Mary, why not the rest of us?

 

[garysibio]

It has been revealed to us by God through the Church, confirmed as such when it was infallibly defined as Dogma. For a Catholic such as myself, that is enough.

And there is a basis in scripture.

-Tim-

If we are going to be honest with ourselves, no one, starting only with the Bible, would arrive at a belief in the Immaculate Conception. It isn’t like the Trinity or Mary as Theotokos in that regard. There are, however, a few passages in Scripture that seem to fit in with that belief. In other words, if we start by accepting the doctrine, it seems to make sense out of certain passages,

The Catholic Church cannot just come up with a new doctrine out of thin air. It has to come from public revelation (Scripture & Apostolic Tradition). That does not mean that we are going to fully understand it but it should never stop us from trying to get a better understanding by asking questions and not just accepting “because the pope says so” as a final answer.

 

[CrimsonThorn]

there’s no real difference in being redeemed at conception or in being redeemed when you are a few days old.

Then if there is no difference, in your mind, what is your problem?

 

[CrimsonThorn]

This is one of the great problems of the IC dogma and why Eastern Christians do not adopt this view. If God can do this for one, why not for all? Doesn’t it seem cruel? And of what necessity was it that it was done for one?

Because the womb in which the baby Christ who is God had to dwell, had to be without sin and without blemish.