Scriptural and historical support for the Catholic stand on masturbation

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WesleyF

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Since the last few days I’ve been involved in an online discussion with some “Bible only” people who want scriptural proof that masturbation is a sin. I looked to the obvious places like the sin of Onan, the “defilement laws” in Leviticus and Deuteronomy but found nothing convincing enough. Onan’s case is that of contraception which can be linked to masturbation but I was not satisfied with that one either.
catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9107chap.asp

Then I happened to find some support in the Oral Law of the Jewish times. We know that there was oral tradition even in the Jewish times. Jesus did condemn some of the traditions of the elders which contradicted God’s laws but that does not imply that he condemned all tradition. This is because Jesus told his disciples that they should follow **whatever **the Pharisees teach them, for the pharisees sit on Moses’ seat (Matthew 23:2-3).

The Oral Law of the Jews has been documented in the Talmud.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud

Here’s what I found in the Talmud:

“Rab stated: ‘A man who wilfully causes erection should be placed under the ban’” (Talmud Niddah 13b: 1-2)

" Eleazar stated: Who are referred to in the Scriptural text, Your hands are full of blood? Those that commit masturbation with their hands. It was taught at the school of R. Ishmael, Thou shalt not commit adultery implies, Thou shalt not practise masturbation either with hand or with foot." (Talmud Niddah 13b: 11-14)

Having seen that I was pretty much excited. And then, suddenly, I found support in scripture in the place where I had least expected it to be.

Matthew 5:27-32

“You have heard that it was said, You shall not commit **adultery**.' But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. ***And* if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away**; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell. "It was also said, Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.”

Speaking in the context of adultery, Jesus seems to be making a seemingly “out of context” statement. But it seems to me that he is indeed quoting from the Jewish Oral Law. How else could you interpret “if your right hand causes you to sin” in the context of adultery? Having seen the background of the Jewish Oral Law (which people were very familiar with) it is not difficult to see that the Jews must have understood Jesus to be speaking about masturbation. Otherwise the statement doesn’t make sense and seems irrelevant to the context.

What are your thoughts on this?
 
It’s good support, but we don’t follow oral Jewish Law in Catholicism. I’m not sure if non Catholics would find that convincing really. Catholics might not either.
 
WesleyF said:
people who want scriptural proof that masturbation is a sin.
Click to expand...
Having sexual relations with ANYONE except your spouse is adultery (which is a sin). Even if it’s having sexual relations with YOURSELF (because that’s exactly what masturbation is).
 
Wesley ,

Its things like this that bring me back to this forum. You hit the nail right on the head my friend, thats beautiful how you found that. Nice Work…God bless you
 
Hi Wesley,

The Talmuds, being legal argumentation over principles of the Law, ought to point to a scriptural passage in the Law(Torah?) which a Rabbi interpreted. So, perhaps a bit more study will reveal on what basis that Rabbi made the comment concerning a man who “makes” an erection – and in particular I think it would help your discussion if you could point out which passage is about “hands full of blood”.

There are two issues here; the first is that I am unaware of the “seed of man” being associated with blood. Rather, my understanding is that the seed is understood as the clay which God molds in the womb – and the Hebrew scriptures comment about the mystery of “how does” the spirit (breath) enter the child? The spirit, being associated with blood, would imply that they did not really understand how life “entered” the child.

The second issue is that in Jesus’ remark against adultery, there are two things in series – the right eye, and the right hand; Although the hand is suggestive of masturbation, why the “right” one? and what does the “right” eye have to do with it?

Secondly, this interpretation of Adultery would lead me to wonder what the meaning of the passage is with respect to a husband and wife; eg: Should the wife tease the husband until he is unable to control his feelings but she is unwilling to bear responsibility for her actions (eg: a vengeful wife), and he attempt in shock to stop what amounts to masturbation and in effect causes it – would this, then, be also Adultery? (Is the man sinning against his wife? or is it she who has sinned against him?)

The problem with the Talmudic writings is that they are contextual, and often several opposing views are contrasted in order for the basic principle to be revealed. I think they are useful in discovering what KINDS of thought surrounded the interpretation of various scriptures; and as a scripture commentary, they can point to possible interpretations for bible-onlyists.

P.S. A link to the actual page of the Talmud would be appreciated.

Pax Tecum.
 
WesleyF said:
Since the last few days I’ve been involved in an online discussion with some “Bible only” people who want scriptural proof that masturbation is a sin. I looked to the obvious places like the sin of Onan, the “defilement laws” in Leviticus and Deuteronomy but found nothing convincing enough. Onan’s case is that of contraception which can be linked to masturbation but I was not satisfied with that one either.
catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9107chap.asp

Then I happened to find some support in the Oral Law of the Jewish times. We know that there was oral tradition even in the Jewish times. Jesus did condemn some of the traditions of the elders which contradicted God’s laws but that does not imply that he condemned all tradition. This is because Jesus told his disciples that they should follow **whatever **the Pharisees teach them, for the pharisees sit on Moses’ seat (Matthew 23:2-3).

The Oral Law of the Jews has been documented in the Talmud.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud

Here’s what I found in the Talmud:

“Rab stated: ‘A man who wilfully causes erection should be placed under the ban’” (Talmud Niddah 13b: 1-2)

" Eleazar stated: Who are referred to in the Scriptural text, Your hands are full of blood? Those that commit masturbation with their hands. It was taught at the school of R. Ishmael, Thou shalt not commit adultery implies, Thou shalt not practise masturbation either with hand or with foot." (Talmud Niddah 13b: 11-14)

Having seen that I was pretty much excited. And then, suddenly, I found support in scripture in the place where I had least expected it to be.

Matthew 5:27-32

“You have heard that it was said, You shall not commit **adultery**.' But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. ***And*** if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell. "It was also said, Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.”

Speaking in the context of adultery, Jesus seems to be making a seemingly “out of context” statement. But it seems to me that he is indeed quoting from the Jewish Oral Law. How else could you interpret “if your right hand causes you to sin” in the context of adultery? Having seen the background of the Jewish Oral Law (which people were very familiar with) it is not difficult to see that the Jews must have understood Jesus to be speaking about masturbation. Otherwise the statement doesn’t make sense and seems irrelevant to the context.

What are your thoughts on this?
Click to expand...
Hi, WhesleyF!

The passage you’ve quoted of St. Matthew (5:27-32) should be sufficient proof; sadly, the Scriptures only people are a perplexing kind… they require that the Scriptures be very specific when they seek enlightenment; yet, they use human reason when testing (accepting) the Word of God.

Jesus is God; He comes to the Jews, the people who have been given the Law; He knows that they are aware of the things which Yahweh God finds loathing and abominable… He does not re-instructs Israel in the abc’s of Worship; only where the Law has been perverted/circumvented does He reinforce His Teachings; and the new Teaching speaks of mysteries not revealed as of yet…

Should we experiment with crack, angel dust and the latest drugs chemically produced since He did not forbid them? Should we abstain from any technologically advanced tool/machinery since Jesus did not produce a list of future inventions?

It is absurd for a Scripture believing person to suggest that Christ was OK with masturbation when faced with the passage of St. Matthew: if you have desire in your mind, you’ve committed adultery; if your eye/hand causes you to sin… remove it!

When we ignore His Word we reject His Authority and Dominion over us; in effect we are not His Disiciples but His adversaries (anti-Christ).

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Here’s an online link:
come-and-hear.com/niddah/niddah_13.html

The eye is also mentioned here, as an analogy to what happens after an ?accidental? masturbation.

The way the rabbi’s thought of the subject matter, then, would strongly indicate the saying of Jesus uses the same analogies. (eg: if the Talmud accurately reflects the sayings of the time of Jesus, which may have become distorted.) But, The Talmuds, notice, are rabbinic and contain much pharisaic literature – some talmud tracts are devoted to exploiting loopholes in the Torah…
😦

In the case of an eye, Talmud niddah refers to the possibility of a second impurity/masterbation by touch as analogous to keeping a finger on the eye, which continues to damage the eye.
This isn’t adultery, as far as I can tell in the tract on impurity.

But, I would also mention, a bit further down in Matthew, in the same passage where Jesus talks about divorce – Jesus mentions the logic of “pornea” as the exception – This is related to porn-ography where a prostitute is drawn.

eg: Herod lusted after his brother’s wife, Herodias, and though he “married” her, it was not for love of God and Children, but out of lust. That was a pornographic “marriage” (pornea) – and the nature of the marriage is borne out by Herod even looking to Herodias’ daughter lustfully.

In the case of “Adultery” mentioned in Matthew 5:27-32 the word is specific to the case of a married person in a true marriage.
But below, where the exception is made for “unchastity” the word – unchastity is “pornea” or the logic of pornographic prostitution.
That the two are connected one passage apart is actually suggestive that you might have something, but perhaps it is distorted or incomplete in the Talmud Nidda.

I see that in the Nidda Tract of the Talmud, that a cross reference is not made for blood on their “hands” – (my original question)-- and from the erroneous interpretation, I tend to think this is where some protestants may have come up with the idea that contraception (barrier) was murder of future children. If you find the exact place the reference comes from, let me know, as I would like to trace that out.

Happy fishing…
 
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