Scriptural Basis for Mary's Assumption

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JoeyWarren;2515817]Does anyone else see the foot in mouth on this one?
Help me out here. What did Jesus tell Pharisees in John 10:37-38 about His works?
I be thinking JustAsking4 just committed a Thomas Didymus?

Blessed are those that have believed and not seen…
Not a committed Thomas Didymus but one who takes truth with the utmost seriousness and the warning of scripture about false teachers.

Now let me ask you; do you beleive everything your church has taught?
 
Yes, I certainly do. 👍
Have you heard of St. Alphonsus de Liguori? He is a “doctor” of the catholic church and wrote a book that is endorsed by your church called --The Glories of Mary. In this book Ligori writes this — “At the command of Mary all obey, even God.”

Do you believe this also?
 
Yep, pick out a phrase out of context. Why not read the whole book?

I can pick passages of the Bible and make it appear that God is evil “I create evil and good”, or that Peter is really satan in disguise “Get thee behind me Satan”. . .or even that Jesus is not God, “Why do you call me good? God alone is good. . .”

And what does a cherry picked phrase have to do with Scriptural basis for Mary’s assumption?
 
And yes, I do believe that Mary. . .who was full of grace, and without sin, and chosen to be the Mother of God, and is now in heaven. . .is so faithful to God that any ‘command’ she ‘might’ make would be what God Himself desired her to command, and that, God being all good, and the command being for good, He ‘must’ do the good. Note that she does not ‘command’ God to do something He does not want to do. If she could, He would not be God. If she tried, she would not be in heaven.

IOW, if we ourselves were so closely tied to our Father’s will, so ‘godly’ that we could ‘have faith the size of a grain of mustard seed but say to this mountain. . uproot yourself into the sea. . .and the mountain would obey’. . .why would not God ‘obey’ the ‘command’ to do good that in essence is requiring Him to 'be God?" All good is God.

Do you really think that Mary can command 'evil?" That seems to be what you’re saying, that she ‘commands’ God as though she were making herself greater than God. If she were, she’d be sinning. No one in heaven can sin.
 
CM,

I checked out your blog and thought you did a pretty good job with it.

Now if I can just get you to be a Calvinist you might be able to replace Jimmy White…😃
:rotfl: 😃 Not much chance of that my friend, but thanks for the compliment. Hey, I was Southern Baptist at one point aren’t they pretty much Calvinists?
Have you heard of St. Alphonsus de Liguori? He is a “doctor” of the catholic church and wrote a book that is endorsed by your church called --The Glories of Mary. In this book Ligori writes this — “At the command of Mary all obey, even God.”

Do you believe this also?
Gee… lemme see here, St. Alphonsus de Liguori was a pretty cool guy, and pretty smart, but lessee here…:hmmm: His name doesn’t seem to listed as one of the popes…and :hmmm: His book is a devotional work that is approved by the Church, but it is not considered infallible teaching…Based on the Blessed Virgin’s interaction with Our Lord in John 2:1-11, there certainly appears to be a case for her to have a little special “pull” with Our Lord…so…how to phrase this so you understand it?

I stand by my statement.
[SIGN]I believe everything that the Catholic Church teaches.[/SIGN]

Since this is not something that the Catholic Church teaches, and understanding that I do not read more into the quoted statement than I believe that holy doctor of the Church really was saying…
I have no problems with it. In fact, since I haven’t read it yet, if I can find a copy, I’ll pick it up and do so.

I know what the Catholic Church teaches about the Blessed Virgin, and I agree with it. There’s nothing to not agree with.
 
Yep, pick out a phrase out of context. Why not read the whole book?

I can pick passages of the Bible and make it appear that God is evil “I create evil and good”, or that Peter is really satan in disguise “Get thee behind me Satan”. . .or even that Jesus is not God, “Why do you call me good? God alone is good. . .”

And what does a cherry picked phrase have to do with Scriptural basis for Mary’s assumption?
I have read much of this book and could fill pages and pages of this kind of quote. That quote and many like it in that book clearly shows his beliefs about her.
Anyone who says they believe all that the catholic teaches must deal with all kinds teachings. Ligori is one of many that catholics may not be aware of or if they are must deal with his writings.
 
:rotfl: 😃 Not much chance of that my friend, but thanks for the compliment. Hey, I was Southern Baptist at one point aren’t they pretty much Calvinists?
Gee… lemme see here, St. Alphonsus de Liguori was a pretty cool guy, and pretty smart, but lessee here…:hmmm: His name doesn’t seem to listed as one of the popes…and :hmmm: His book is a devotional work that is approved by the Church, but it is not considered infallible teaching…Based on the Blessed Virgin’s interaction with Our Lord in John 2:1-11, there certainly appears to be a case for her to have a little special “pull” with Our Lord…so…how to phrase this so you understand it?

I stand by my statement.
[SIGN]I believe everything that the Catholic Church teaches.[/SIGN]

Since this is not something that the Catholic Church teaches, and understanding that I do not read more into the quoted statement than I believe that holy doctor of the Church really was saying…
I have no problems with it. In fact, since I haven’t read it yet, if I can find a copy, I’ll pick it up and do so.

I know what the Catholic Church teaches about the Blessed Virgin, and I agree with it. There’s nothing to not agree with.
If you do read it i would be interested in what you think. Catholic teaching is more than just the catechism or what popes and councils pronounce. Looking at what Ligori and others say about Mary for example helps to shed light on what the catholic church teaches. Something doesn’t have to be declared “infallible” to be true. The mere fact your church endorses something indicattes it is true.
 
Tantum ergo;2518321]And yes, I do believe that Mary. . .who was full of grace, and without sin, and chosen to be the Mother of God, and is now in heaven. . .is so faithful to God that any ‘command’ she ‘might’ make would be what God Himself desired her to command, and that, God being all good, and the command being for good, He ‘must’ do the good. Note that she does not ‘command’ God to do something He does not want to do. If she could, He would not be God. If she tried, she would not be in heaven.
This is the problem when a church goes beyond what is written in the Scriptures. What you are saying here is specualtion since the scriptures don’t tell us who or what kind of relationships are going on in heaven.
IOW, if we ourselves were so closely tied to our Father’s will, so ‘godly’ that we could ‘have faith the size of a grain of mustard seed but say to this mountain. . uproot yourself into the sea. . .and the mountain would obey’. . .why would not God ‘obey’ the ‘command’ to do good that in essence is requiring Him to 'be God?" All good is God.
Is the context of this heaven? If it is i don’t know how to answer this since i don’t know how these things would work out in heaven. We can speculate but that does not mean its true.
Do you really think that Mary can command 'evil?" That seems to be what you’re saying, that she ‘commands’ God as though she were making herself greater than God. If she were, she’d be sinning. No one in heaven can sin.
Again your premises here are speculative since we don’t know what heaven is like in this regards.
 
Justasking4 - could you provide me with the reference to Ligouri or perhaps quote the entire paragraph. I’d be keen to read it. Do any of you know if its possible to read ‘The Glories of Mary’ online?
 
If you do read it i would be interested in what you think. Catholic teaching is more than just the catechism or what popes and councils pronounce. Looking at what Ligori and others say about Mary for example helps to shed light on what the catholic church teaches. Something doesn’t have to be declared “infallible” to be true. The mere fact your church endorses something indicattes it is true.
Bunkum…

If you can find anywhere in definitive and authoritative documents that parallels this writing then we have a problem. You can’t because it doesn’t exist.

It is the private devotional opinion of an individual and no one…Catholic or otherwise is required to read it…let alone believe it.
Catholic teaching is more than just the catechism or what popes and councils pronounce.
No… actually it’s NOT, but you wish
Justasking4 - could you provide me with the reference to Ligouri or perhaps quote the entire paragraph. I’d be keen to read it. Do any of you know if its possible to read ‘The Glories of Mary’ online?
marys-touch.com/Glories/contents.htm
 
The passage in question (LINK):
“At the command of Mary, all obey, even God.” St. Bernardine fears not to utter this sentence; meaning, indeed, to say that God grants the prayers of Mary as if they were commands (“Imperio Virginis omnia famulantur, etiam Deus”—Pro Fest. V. M. s. 5, c. 6). And hence St. Anseml addressing Mary says: “Our Lord, O most holy Virgin, has exalted thee to such a degree that by his favor all things that are possible to him should be possible to thee” (“Te, Domina, Deus sic exaltavit, et omnia tibi secum possibilia esse donavit.”—De Excell. Virg. c. 12). “For thy protection is omnipotent, O Mary” (“Omnipotens auxilium tuum, O Maria!”—Hymn 6), says Cosmas of Jerusalem. “Yes, Mary is omnipotent,” repeats Richard of St. Laurence; “for the queen by every law enjoys the same privileges as the king. And as,” he adds, “the power of the son and that of the mother is the same, a mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent son” (“Eisdem privilegiis secundum leges gaudent Rex et Regina. Cum autem eadem sit potestas Matris et Filii ab omnipotente Filio omnipotens Mater est effecta”—De Laud B. M. l. 4). “And thus,” says St. Antoninus, “God has placed the whole Church, not only under the patronage, but even under the dominion of Mary” (“Sub protectione ejus et dominio”—P. 4, t. 15, c. 20, #2).
Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent; though, of course, it is always true that where the Son is omnipotent by nature, the Mother is only so by grace.
But that she is so is evident from the fact, that whatever the Mother asks for, the Son never denies her; and this was revealed to St. Bridget, who one day heard Jesus talkinig with Mary, and thus address her: “Ask of me what thou wilt, for no petition of thine can be void” (“Pete quod vis a me; non enim inanis potest esse petition tua”). As if he had said, “My Mother, thou knowest how much I love thee; therefore ask all that thou wilt of me; for it is not possible that I should refuse thee anything.” And the reason that he gave for this was beautiful: “Because thou never dist deny me anything on earth, I will deny thee nothing in heaven” (“Quia tu mihi Nihil negasti in terra, ego tibi Nihil negabo in coelo”—Rev. l. 6, c. 23; l. 1, c. 24). My Mother, when thou wast in the world, thou never didst refuse to do anything for the love of me; and now that I am in heaven, it is right that I should deny thee nothing that thou askest. Mary, then, is called omnipotent in the sense in which it can be understood of a creature who is incapable of a divine attribute. She is omnipotent , because by her prayers she obtains whatever she wills.Based on the explanation that I have bolded in dark green, I see no reason to be distressed by this. John 2 certainly shows that this kind of relationship was evident even then, and I know of no place where it can be asserted that the Blessed Virgin might have “abused” this grace.

So again…I stand by my statement.
[SIGN]I believe everything that the Catholic Church teaches.[/SIGN]
 
Having drifted completely away from its original topic of “Scriptural Basis for Mary’s Assumption”, this thread is now closed.
 
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