Scriptural basis for Papal infallibility?

[NotWorthy]

You made me dig, here you go. Thanks, for being at this thread friendly fire is much more…friendly.

No problem Simon. Though sometimes I wonder if you enjoy the fire!!!

It’s like Bill Cosby used to joke about the Lone Ranger and Tonto. Almost every episode, the Lone Ranger would have to tell Tonto, “Don’t go into town, Kimosobe, there’s going to be a fight and you’re going to get hurt”!!!

Sometimes I feel like saying, “Don’t start that thread, Simon, there’s going to be a fight and someone’s going to get hurt!!!”

Augustine refers to the passage as a reference to all believers gaining knowledge:

“Accordingly, when He says, ‘He will teach you all truth,’ or ‘will guide you into all truth,’ I do not think the fulfillment is possible in any one’s mind in this present life (for who is there, while living in this corruptible and soul-oppressing body, that can know all truth, when even the apostle says, ‘We know in part’?), but because it is effected by the Holy Spirit, of whom we have now received the earnest, that we shall attain also to the actual fullness of knowledge: whereof iris said by the same apostle, ‘But then face to face;’ and, ‘Now I know in part, but then shall I know even as also I am known;’ not as a thing which he knows fully in this life, but which, as a thing that would still be future on to the attainment of that perfection, the Lord promised us through the love of the Spirit, when He said, ‘He will teach you all truth,’ or ‘will guide you unto all truth.’…For in such a way will the Holy Spirit teach you all truth, when He shall shed abroad that love ever more and more largely in your hearts.” (Tractates on John, 96:4-5)

This is a good point. I actually agreed with Augustine, that we will never fully understand the truth while here on earth (Hey, sometimes the blind hog DOES find the acorn!). I may have been applying the Church teaching that “when Jesus is talking to the Apostles, he’s often guiding His Shepherds (my words). And when Jesus is talking to the people, He is often guiding His Sheep” to this verse.

After reading this passage, you gotta admit, Simon, that Augustine was pretty deep!

 

[NotWorthy]

Right!
So then why was the papal bull speculatores domus Israel, Not ex cathedra? if Mary’s Perpetual Virginity was???

Because Galileo’s teaching is no longer dangerous to the minds of Bible Scholars.

Mary’s Perpetual Virginity is still just as true today as it was 2000 years ago.

 

[Lampo]

snip

This is a good point. I actually agreed with Augustine, that we will never fully understand the truth while here on earth (Hey, sometimes the blind hog DOES find the acorn!). I may have been applying the Church teaching that “when Jesus is talking to the Apostles, he’s often guiding His Shepherds (my words). And when Jesus is talking to the people, He is often guiding His Sheep” to this verse.

After reading this passage, you gotta admit, Simon, that Augustine was pretty deep!

Aquinas said something similar:

“Hence we must say that for the knowledge of any truth whatsoever man needs divine help, that the intellect may be moved by God to its act. But he does not need a new light added to his natural light, in order to know the truth in all things, but only in some that surpasses his natural knowledge” (Summa Theologiae, I-II, 109, 1)

 

[Mannyfit75]

I think you misunderstand me, from the “chair” Rome infallibly ruled that Mary remained a virgin…I know it takes faith to believe as such, but HOW is it a matter of faith?

Actually, the whole Church (Magisterium) affirm this not the Pope par say. Like I said, the Pope only used infallibility when he proclaim that Mary assumed in Heaven and is the Immaculate Conception.

I don’t think I misunderstand you.

 

[NotWorthy]

All right, Simon, I browsed over a study of the Gospel of John (you know how I HATE to be wrong, eh?) and looked at the verse 16:13. Here’s what I came across:

      16:13-14 - *"**He will lead you to   the complete truth"; "[He] will say only what he has been   told"; "He will reveal to you the things to come." "He   will glorify me since all he reveals to you will be taken from what is   mine."

*** **Question: **What “complete truth” and “things to come” will the Holy Spirit reveal?
**
Answer: **He will reveal the complete significance of Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection, as well as the mystery of Eucharist and the Most Holy Trinity. He will also reveal to the Magisterium of the New Covenant order the hidden depths of the mystery of Jesus Christ and the gift of grace that is our salvation. In other words, God the Holy Spirit will continue the teaching mission of Jesus to bear witness to the truth [see 8:31-32; 18:37 and CCC# 687].

It is from this promise that the Great Councils of Vatican I and II pronounced the doctrine of magisterial infallibility. This doctrine states that the Pope alone and/or the Bishops united with the Pope, the successor of St. Peter, are **divinely protected from teaching error when they define matters pertaining to faith and morals **[see Lumen Gentium, 25]. The guidance and intervention of the Paraclete is Jesus’ assurance that Gospel will not be distorted, corrupted, or misunderstood by the ministerial priesthood of the Church during her earthly pilgrimage. See CCC# 768, 889-8892

BTW, this comes from AgapeBibleStudy.Com. For more information CCC is the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

 

[fellowChristian]

**Matthew 10:20 **

20"For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

**Luke 12:12 **

12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."

Jesus tells His apostles it is not they who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through them. If the Spirit is the one speaking and leading the Church, the Church cannot err on matters of faith and morals.

**Matthew 16:19 **

19"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift.

**Matthew 28:20 **

20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Jesus promises that He will be with the Church always. Jesus’ presence in the Church assures infallible teaching on faith and morals. With Jesus present, we can never be deceived

**Luke 10:16 **

16"The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me."

whoever hears you, hears me. Whoever rejects you, rejects me. Jesus is very clear that the bishops of the Church speak with Christ’s infallible authority.

more here:
scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html#the_church-IV

Non-Catholic Christians should ask themselves why they accept the Church’s teaching on the three persons of the Trinity, the two natures of Christ in one divine person, and the New Testament canon of Scripture (all defined by the Catholic Church), but not other teachings regarding the Eucharist, Mary, the saints, and purgatory?

 

[NotWorthy]

Non-Catholic Christians should ask themselves why they accept the Church’s teaching on the three persons of the Trinity, the two natures of Christ in one divine person, and the New Testament canon of Scripture (all defined by the Catholic Church), but not other teachings regarding the Eucharist, Mary, the saints, and purgatory?

It’s especially interesting that the Eucharist is not accepted. A Christian could accuse the Church of making up Purgatory, for the doctrine developed over time.

But there has been no more consistent teaching throughout the entire history of the Church then the Real Presence in the Eucharist. I had Jeff Cavins speaking one time of a book he wrote in which he documents a Church leader from every generation since Christ who taught something of the Presence of our Lord in the Eucharist! Every Generation!!

That’s a powerful testimony to Apostolic Succession and Sacred Tradition.

 

[angelusm]

There’s Holy Spirit that teaches us everything and shows the truth.

 

[NotWorthy]

Yes, angelusm, I think I understand where you are going.

Simon, I didn’t mean to imply that the sole purpose of the Holy Spirit is go guide the Church. Of course, the Holy Spirit resides in all the Christian Faithful, helping to guide each and every one of us to a closer union with God.

But a separate purpose of the Holy Spirit’s is to guide the Church in Her Teachings.