Scriptural basis for the liturgy?

[Zenas]

I have a friend who says she doesn’t think it’s possible that the First Century Christians were Catholic. The New Testament makes no mention of the early churches having jingle bells, incense, and Gregorian chants in the liturgy. In fact it makes no mention of a liturgy at all. Since their services seem to have more closely resembled the modern Protestant service, the early church must have been something other than Catholic. How would you respond?

 

[Fidelis]

I have a friend who says she doesn’t think it’s possible that the First Century Christians were Catholic. The New Testament makes no mention of the early churches having jingle bells, incense, and Gregorian chants in the liturgy. In fact it makes no mention of a liturgy at all. Since their services seem to have more closely resembled the modern Protestant service, the early church must have been something other than Catholic. How would you respond?

First of all, how does she figure the liturgy of the early Church more resembled Protestant services?

Second, she is starting from the false premise of Sola Scriptura (the Bible Alone). If every aspect of Church life has to be found explicitly in the Bible, she herself is going to have to throw out a lot of things that Protestants accept – like the canon (list of inspired books in the Bible) itself.

Having said that, we have lots of extra-biblical descriptions of early Church liturgy that looks more Catholic than Protestant, for example the first century Didache.

 

[Scottgun]

Seems like she is getting bent out of shape about the peripherals. Get her on the center: the Eucharist. Romans accused Christians of canabalism. Implying that the Real Presence was there from the beginning.

 

[Grateful4mercy]

I have a friend who says she doesn’t think it’s possible that the First Century Christians were Catholic. The New Testament makes no mention of the early churches having jingle bells, incense, and Gregorian chants in the liturgy. In fact it makes no mention of a liturgy at all. Since their services seem to have more closely resembled the modern Protestant service, the early church must have been something other than Catholic. How would you respond?

I’ll try to help a little, though I am by no means the expert on this forum.

The bells are not widely used much anymore. They were generally used during the Latin Mass period for those that did not speak Latin. You would know by the ringing of the bell when the host was being consecrated during the Eucharistic Liturgy. It’s not dogma.

Anyone who is really interested in the origin of the incense could easily find it in the Jewish Temple service in the OT as well as the book of Revelation.

Jesus sang Hymns at the last supper, I’m confused by the chant question.

Not to be too sarcastic, but the NT doesn’t mention quite a few things. Like electricity, or air conditioning. Should we not include those either? Does your friend only observe the most primitive of worship practices?

Sounds like she is questioning the legitimacy of her own church if she feels it necessary to attack somebody else’s liturgy this way. What does it matter to her WHAT we do in our church?

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

I have a friend who says she doesn’t think it’s possible that the First Century Christians were Catholic. The New Testament makes no mention of the early churches having jingle bells, incense, and Gregorian chants in the liturgy. In fact it makes no mention of a liturgy at all. Since their services seem to have more closely resembled the modern Protestant service, the early church must have been something other than Catholic. How would you respond?

Protestants can read the Bible. If you set up your own Church you have a completely free hand, so an obvious thing to do is to look into the scriptures and try to devise something that looks like the Early church.
Unfortunately there is very little. The main source on early liturgy, from St Paul’s letter to the Corinthians, is a list of complaints against abuses.
So it is really anyone’s guess whether a Protestant church service is “closer” to early liturgy or not. How do we measure closeness, anyway? If the Protestants bless a regular loaf of bread, but don’t believe the same thing as the early Christians, who also used regular loaves, about the status of that bread, are they closer or further than the Catholics?

 

[YADA]

I have written about this before in other threads… At a recent Easter Vigil we had a condidate who brought a Jewish frined to the Service for her reception into full communion and Confirmation This really sweet jewish woman raved for an hour at the reception about how wonderful the service was and how at home she felt. Although she had attended various protestant services through the years this was her first Catholic mass. She never knew any Christain worship culd be so similar to her services. Excpet for the actual new testament readings [although she commented that even they quoted the Hebrew texts] and the christian emphasis in the prayers she recognized the Jewish faith practices. She was just thrilled!

So I would say that your friend should visit a synogogue worship service because it is in that Jewish worship service that the catholic mass has its origins. Most scholars believe that the first century Christians [prior to the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD] continued to attend the synogogue worship with their Jewish counterparts on the sabbath [where they heard the readings from the Hebrew texts - Jesus did this when he read from the prophet and declared “today this prophesy is fullfilled in your midst” in Nazareth]. We call that part of the Mass the Liturgy of the Word. Then they gathered on the Lord’s Day to celebrate the Eucharist, the breaking of bread [St Paul writes about the bread that “we break… is not a participation in the Body of Christ, the Cup that we Bless…is it not a participation in the Blood of Christ?”]

After AD 70 and the destruction of the Jewish Temple, the Christians were expelled from the Jewish community and they became independent an no longer shared the Synogogue woship. Also, more and more gentile conversions meant the community of faithfull were less tied to the Jewish community. The two parts of the worship service were combined into one and celebrated not on the sabbath but on the Lord’s day, the first day of the week. Thus today we have the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

It is highly scriptural, from the collect and the opening prayer through the dismissal, packed full of scripture, one quote after another…not just the readings [4 on Sundays - usually comprised of an OT and a Psalm plus NT letter and Gospel and on weekdays 3] but the prayers and resposes…

There is no way the protestant service can match the authenticity of the mass against the early church…IMHO

 

[Harland]

I have a friend who says she doesn’t think it’s possible that the First Century Christians were Catholic. The New Testament makes no mention of the early churches having jingle bells, incense, and Gregorian chants in the liturgy. In fact it makes no mention of a liturgy at all. Since their services seem to have more closely resembled the modern Protestant service, the early church must have been something other than Catholic. How would you respond?

Has she attended a Mass? If she has, has she followed trying to understand what was going or just sat grousing about having to sit through a boring pagan non-biblical non-Christian ritual?

If it is the latter, take her to Mass with her bible and have her follow while she reads the Gospel account of the road to Emmaus (Luke 24). If that isn’t an outline of the Mass I don’t know what is.

 

[Zenas]

Has she attended a Mass? If she has, has she followed trying to understand what was going or just sat grousing about having to sit through a boring pagan non-biblical non-Christian ritual?.

She’s not anti-Catholic. She just doesn’t understand where these rituals come from since she is a sola scriptura person and they are not found in the Bible?

 

[YADA]

The you should have hr attend a synogogue service and then a Mass. Before you attend Mass, set down with her and your bible, read the scriptural passages from which the Mass is taken, read the readings for tha mass including the responsorial psalms. read the descritpion of the ehavenly mass from the Book of reelation. That way she will see the biblical basis of the Mass and just how scriptural the mass truly is…

 

[Teflon93]

I have a friend who says she doesn’t think it’s possible that the First Century Christians were Catholic. The New Testament makes no mention of the early churches having jingle bells, incense, and Gregorian chants in the liturgy. In fact it makes no mention of a liturgy at all. Since their services seem to have more closely resembled the modern Protestant service, the early church must have been something other than Catholic. How would you respond?

I’d suggest she read Justin Martyr. His account of the Early Church liturgy is close to that of the Mass today. The mainline Protestant denominations which are closest to the Catholic liturgy of course are similarly close to the Early Church’s liturgy (although the Eucharist as Actual Presence is typically missing).

Keep in mind also that liturgy develops over time. The apostles were off preaching the gospel most of the time and the more formal aspects of the Church were hammered out over time.

 

[Brendan]

I’d suggest she read Justin Martyr. His account of the Early Church liturgy is close to that of the Mass today.

I would highly recommend the book The Mass of the Early Christians

It covers the history of the Mass using descriptions given by Justin Martyr, other early Christians and even documents from the Roman pagans who tried Christians, such as Pliny the younger.

 

[dbacks5439]

Not to mention that everything that is said at Mass is found in the Bible, save for the Nicene Creed (even though the theology of the creed is also biblical). Scott Hahn has a book on the Mass and it outlines the Mass and its connection with scripture.

 

[puzzleannie]

Fr Peter Stravinskas has an excellent paperback from Our Sunday Visitor called The Catholic Church and the Bible. The last third of the book is a reprint of his earlier pamphlet on the Mass in the Bible. It gives a scriptureal cite for virtually every prayer and ritual action of the Mass. there is no better brief intro to this topic that I know of, although there are many good but much longer books.

Your friend needs to sit down and re-read Acts prayerfully and carefully, she has missed a lot.

 

[ricmat]

Here’s a link showing the Mass in detail, and how it relates to scripture.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

I second the Hahn book.

I am taking “History of Christianity” this seummer session, and I am constantly amazed at how much Catholic practices are mentioned.
As the resident Catholic, I am left explaining things such as the cannibalistic charges.

 

[dbacks5439]

I second the Hahn book.

I am taking “History of Christianity” this seummer session, and I am constantly amazed at how much Catholic practices are mentioned.
As the resident Catholic, I am left explaining things such as the cannibalistic charges.

What school do you attend? I’m also left explaining Catholic teaching to Catholics at a Catholic university!

 

[PatienceAndLove]

What school do you attend? I’m also left explaining Catholic teaching to Catholics at a Catholic university!

I go to a secular school: Edinboro University of Pennsylvania in Edinboro, PA

I was lucky enough to attend Franciscan Univ, so I didn’t really have to defend Catholic teachings, but I know what you mean. I have heard from other people about the non-Catholic nature of their Catholic college.