Scriptural evidence for Once-saved-always-saved?

[paul_c]

Pepcis,
You are talking now about predestination. You believe that a certain part of humanity was made to be elect and that a certain part of humanity was made strictly to be condemned, never capable of being saved. Is this correct?

Catholics believe differently. While it is true that some were born to be the elect, we believe that all men have the opportunity to be saved. Now it is true that God is omniscient and knows who will ultimately be saved, but in his love, he lets us choose our eternal destination.

If your view was the correct one, It implies that no choice made or action done by anyone has any effect whatever on their pre-planned destination. If this is true, why would Jesus have preached the sermon on the mount, exhorting us to do God’s will. Why would virtually every epistle contain a section on how to live the christian life if our actions don’t matter? Why would Jesus describe the last judgement in Matthew 25: 31-46 as a being based on whether a person did works of mercy or not? Why would he have told the rich man that if he wanted eternal life, follow the commandments, sell his goods and follow Jesus if actions didn’t matter. (Matthew 19)…

And by the way, we Catholics would agree that works without faith are dead, just as faith without works are dead. You need both to be saved and you need to practice them until you die.

 

[Carlan]

Pepcis,
You are talking now about predestination. You believe that a certain part of humanity was made to be elect and that a certain part of humanity was made strictly to be condemned, never capable of being saved. Is this correct?

Catholics believe differently. While it is true that some were born to be the elect, we believe that all men have the opportunity to be saved. Now it is true that God is omniscient and knows who will ultimately be saved, but in his love, he lets us choose our eternal destination.

If your view was the correct one, It implies that no choice made or action done by anyone has any effect whatever on their pre-planned destination. If this is true, why would Jesus have preached the sermon on the mount, exhorting us to do God’s will. Why would virtually every epistle contain a section on how to live the christian life if our actions don’t matter? Why would Jesus describe the last judgement in Matthew 25: 31-46 as a being based on whether a person did works of mercy or not? Why would he have told the rich man that if he wanted eternal life, follow the commandments, sell his goods and follow Jesus if actions didn’t matter. (Matthew 19)…

Amen! And if the people are not going to pay attention to Jesus on the Mount, they are not going to pay attention to any thing we Catholic say.Carlan

St Augustine: Almighty Father,source of everlasting light, send forth your truth into our hearts and pour over us your light. Carlan

And by the way, we Catholics would agree that works without faith are dead, just as faith without works are dead. You need both to be saved and you need to practice them until you die.

 

[Carlan]

Carlan:

  G"MORNING< I have been reading this debate since it began. It  will only continue in circles.  With all due respect Pepcis you have  been trying to justify the easy way out to heaven ,I'm sorry but I see presumption there and that cannot be good.

Sorry sir, we are not greater, if we are to follow Him we must take up the cross. Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew has tried and tried to get us to see. Yes, he has paid the price for us , but we must do what He asks of us, LISTEN TO WHAT HE SAYS TO US ON THE MOUNT, and he has told us with him the burden will be light. Remember , we are all sinners, because we love Jesus and we do not want to hurt him, but in spite of that we fall,and many times we are blind to it, think of our sins of omission. Please excuse my preaching,but I felt I had to get it said.:byzsoc: Carlan

 

[Philthy]

Hi Philthy,

Just wanted to let you know that it may take me a day or two to get back to you. I’ll try not to take too long. Thanks. You’ve got some excellent questions, and it appears I didn’t explain myself well enough!!

See ya soon.

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

God gave us a will … Before he regenerates us, we are captured by the Devil and serve him, therefore, our wills are NOT free. …But then a wondrous thing occurs, and we are saved by God, taken out of the domain of the Devil, and now we live in God’s glorious kingdom. Our wills still are not free, but they are oriented toward Him, instead of toward the Devil.

Im confused. We start out without a free will which is oriented toward sin and then a glorious thing happens: we still dont have a free will, but now we are oriented toward God. Is that it?

You missed it. I said “God gave us a will” I did NOT say that God gave us a FREE will. Our will is only as free as our domain. It’s like putting a child in the back yard, and then fencing the yard in. The child has a choice in going outside, but you restrict his choices where he can go. His will is limited to his choices.

Philthy:

And the fact that Christians still sin is…what? God’s will? If its not our will, who’s is it?

It is OUR will. Before we are saved, it is our will (minds) captured by the devil. After we are saved, it is our flesh which still desires and lusts. Our minds have been re-oriented to acknowledge and serve God, but our flesh is weak.

 

[PEPCIS]

"Philthy:

. . . sin remains lurking and we must avail ourselves of the grace God provides to withstand its temptations (1 Cor 10:13).

PEPCIS:

Of course we must. No one is saying that we shouldn’t. But availing ourselves of God’s grace, as you point out in 1 Cor. 10:13, is a grace that God gives to all believers that prevents them from “disinheriting” the kingdom of God. Paul says that God will give us grace so that even when we are tempted, He “. . .will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”

TheWhoFreak:

You aren’t taking into account the possibility of giving in to temptation.

PEPCIS:

Of course I am. It’s exactly what I DID say.

No you aren’t, and that isnt at all what you said! You explicitly said that rather than “giving in to temptation”, believers are graced by God in a manner that ***prevents ***

them from disinheriting the kingdom of God.

Sorry, you are misinterpreting what I stated. I didn’t say that believers will ALWAYS be able to not give into temptation. But I did say that God gives us the grace so that He “. . . will with the temptation also make a way of escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” God doesn’t want us to give into temptation. Sometimes we will fail. But more often than not, we will be able to bear the temptation without entering into sin.

Also, Paul tells us to “be angry, and sin not.” Yes, you may get angry because temptation overcomes you momentarily. But just because you succumb to temptation does not mean that you must sin.

You may look toward a woman who is sexually appealing, and then you (hopefully) will avert your eyes so that you will not enter into sin.

Philthy:

You arent merely saying that God provides a way out so that they MAY(see the verse) be able to bear it, you are claiming that God prevents it so that they WILL bear it.

Hopefully, I helped to clarify that.

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

Hi Marco. Yes, I guess that would be accurate. But how do you know if your name is in the Book of Life? As a Catholic, how do you answer that?

As a Baptist, I believe that the answer really, really, really, is the same as for a Catholic. Let’s see…

We have hope and moral certitude. I only asked because there are Scriptures that speak of God blotting a name out of the Book of Life.

Yes, but when do those names get INTO the Book of Life?

[SIGN]The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. (Revelation 17:8)[/SIGN]

 

[Philthy]

Glad to see you’re back…

You missed it. I said “God gave us a will” I did NOT say that God gave us a FREE will.

Sorry, but YOU missed it - again! I did not say that we were given a free will, I specifically said…well you can read the quote right above this.
My summary remains correct: We start out without a free will; that will is oriented toward sin and we sin. Then God regenerates and we are still without a free will and we still sin. Is that the glorious event?

Our will is only as free as our domain. It’s like putting a child in the back yard, and then fencing the yard in. The child has a choice in going outside, but you restrict his choices where he can go. His will is limited to his choices.

This is silly, unscriptural and inconsistent with reality. Are you attempting to claim that God limits our choices when he regenerates us? That is not the Gospel. Christ came to set us free…

It is OUR will. Before we are saved, it is our will (minds) captured by the devil. After we are saved, it is our flesh which still desires and lusts. Our minds have been re-oriented to acknowledge and serve God, but our flesh is weak.

Im sorry, but this is completely bogus. You dont “serve God” with your mind! That is pure lip service my friend. Its so critical that it’s the basis for the final judgement: what we do, not what we intended to do or wished we had done. Our minds control our bodies and we can most definitely sin with our mind. It is what “comes out from within” us, from the heart, that defiles us PEPCIS. Christianity 101.

 

[Philthy]

PEPCIS;:

Sorry, you are misinterpreting what I stated. I didn’t say that believers will ALWAYS be able to not give into temptation.

Perhaps you didnt mean to, but you did say that in so many words. I think the problem is that you are saying things you don’t mean. What you said was that God will “prevent” the believer from sinning. If something is “prevented” then that something does not occur. If they are prevented from “giving in to temptation” then they will not give in to temptation. English 101 .

Also, Paul tells us to “be angry, and sin not.” Yes, you may get angry because temptation overcomes you momentarily. But just because you succumb to temptation does not mean that you must sin.

Umm, is English your native language? Do you know what it mean to succumb to temptation as opposed to being, say, merely exposed to temptation? If you succumb to temptation in a moral situation you have sinned - they are synonymous. The verse you chose has nothing to do with the topic whatsoever, BTW.

You may look toward a woman who is sexually appealing, and then you (hopefully) will avert your eyes so that you will not enter into sin.Hopefully, I helped to clarify that.

That would be NOT succumbing to temptation, friend. I hope that is clear now.

Unfortunately, you didnt tie up the loose ends that you had created but you did at least clear up that you didnt actually mean to say what you had said. I am greatful for that. Lastly, you didnt even begin to address this issue:

Philthy:

I dont think you actually do understand! But I could be wrong. Could you explain why you believe it is important for a** saved Christian** to live a “good life”? Be sure to include any eternal consequence to the saved Christian of failing to live a “good life”. Did I mention we are only dealing with the saved Christian and we dont want to hear about someone who isnt truly saved or anything like that… dont want to hear about those who arent really saved or any other nonsense related to the unsaved. I just want to know the eternal consequence, the “tragic error” of “it doesnt matter how you live your life once you become Christian”

Blessings!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Pepcis,

This explanation has some serious flaws… What is the basis for saying that someone has a will if that if is not free?

You missed it. I said “God gave us a will” I did NOT say that God gave us a FREE will. Our will is only as free as our domain. It’s like putting a child in the back yard, and then fencing the yard in. The child has a choice in going outside, but you restrict his choices where he can go. His will is limited to his choices.

It is OUR will. Before we are saved, it is our will (minds) captured by the devil. After we are saved, it is our flesh which still desires and lusts. Our minds have been re-oriented to acknowledge and serve God, but our flesh is weak.

Everywhere you turn - the FREE WILL that each of us has - is being exercised every day.
For example:

1.) You freely choose to post statements that deny FREE WILL - no one forced you to do this - in fact, you could have easily just chosen not to resond… but, that would also be a demonstration of FREE WILL!

2.) Adam and Eve were created perfectly and in that creation were given a FREE WILL and the freely chose to listen to Satan and disobey God.

3.) Everyone listed in the Bible has the opportunity to choose for God or against God by either cooperating with God’s Grace or refusing to cooperate:

    - Abraham chose to obey God and was willing to sacrifice his son

    - King Saul chose to obey God for a while then chose a life of willful disobedience

    - Kind David chose to obey God, decided to commit adultery and murder, then chose to repent and return to God

    - Saul of Tarsus chose to honor God by persecuting those who followed The Way and when he met the Risen Christ, freely chose to accept and follow Him.

    - Ananias and his wife freely chose to sell property and they freely chose to try and deceive the Apostles concerning the amount of money they wishes to turn in. Peter inspired by the Holy Spirit called them down for this evil choice.

   - Simon the Magician freely chose to buy the Gifts of God - and was rebuked for this action. Simon then freely chose to repent and was forgiven.

The list can go on and on - but, the outcome is the same: everyone has a FREE WILL and they use it on a regular basis - either to honor God or to honor themselves.

On Thrusday nights I volunteer at one of our local jails to teach a Catholic Bible Study program. We often discuss the presence of FREE WILL and I ask the men to imagine themselves back in the courtroom and standing before the Judge who is about to sentence them. I ask these prisoners what they think would have happened if they had said some like, “Your Honor, I do not have FREE WILL…and, therefor am not responsible for this action I am chaged with.” Neither I or any of these men would expect to hear the Judge say, “Oh, well, since that is so, this case is dismissed!”

I would anticipate that the Divine Judge will be no different when we stand in His Courtroom.

God bless

 

[Carlan]

Hi, Pepcis,

This explanation has some serious flaws… What is the basis for saying that someone has a will if that if is not free?

Everywhere you turn - the FREE WILL that each of us has - is being exercised every day.
For example:

1.) You freely choose to post statements that deny FREE WILL - no one forced you to do this - in fact, you could have easily just chosen not to resond… but, that would also be a demonstration of FREE WILL!

2.) Adam and Eve were created perfectly and in that creation were given a FREE WILL and the freely chose to listen to Satan and disobey God.

3.) Everyone listed in the Bible has the opportunity to choose for God or against God by either cooperating with God’s Grace or refusing to cooperate:

    - Abraham chose to obey God and was willing to sacrifice his son

    - King Saul chose to obey God for a while then chose a life of willful disobedience

    - Kind David chose to obey God, decided to commit adultery and murder, then chose to repent and return to God

    - Saul of Tarsus chose to honor God by persecuting those who followed The Way and when he met the Risen Christ, freely chose to accept and follow Him.

    - Ananias and his wife freely chose to sell property and they freely chose to try and deceive the Apostles concerning the amount of money they wishes to turn in. Peter inspired by the Holy Spirit called them down for this evil choice.

   - Simon the Magician freely chose to buy the Gifts of God - and was rebuked for this action. Simon then freely chose to repent and was forgiven.

The list can go on and on - but, the outcome is the same: everyone has a FREE WILL and they use it on a regular basis - either to honor God or to honor themselves.

On Thrusday nights I volunteer at one of our local jails to teach a Catholic Bible Study program. We often discuss the presence of FREE WILL and I ask the men to imagine themselves back in the courtroom and standing before the Judge who is about to sentence them. I ask these prisoners what they think would have happened if they had said some like, “Your Honor, I do not have FREE WILL…and, therefor am not responsible for this action I am chaged with.” Neither I or any of these men would expect to hear the Judge say, “Oh, well, since that is so, this case is dismissed!”

I would anticipate that the Divine Judge will be no different when we stand in His Courtroom.

God bless

Tom, you and Phil and others are really good and I'd say you have won hands. But Peps , God bless him he is going to hang in there. For some it seems to take a 'Saul of Tarsus' experience!:gopray2:Carlan

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Carlan,

Nice hearing from you…

Yes, you may be right … I, too, have watched with a certain dismay at how solid arguments are ignored, avoided or simply not well addressed…

The group I have always felt sorry for has been Calvin and his followers. The torment these apostates went through must have been something! Think about it … to totally throw out the concept of Divine Justice and substitute Divine Fancy for it! To take the Inspired Words of God found in 1Tim 2:3-4:

***3
This is good and pleasing to God our savior,
4
who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth. ***

…and then stand these Divine Words on their head so that all meaning is lost…

3
This is good and pleasing to God our savior,
4
who wills **ONLY SOME **to be saved and FOR ONLY SOME to come to knowledge of the truth.

My prayer is that all those who have followed Calvin and like-minded wanderers from the truth will pray for the God’s Grace that may come to a real knowledge of this truth that Paul speaks about.

Our God is Love - and He has shown us His Love by sending His Son to die for all men that we all may be work with God’s Grace and effect our salvation by loving God with all of our heart and our neighbor as ourself.

God bless

Tom, you and Phil and others are really good and I’d say you have won hands. But Peps , God bless him he is going to hang in there. For some it seems to take a ‘Saul of Tarsus’ experience!Carlan

 

[mikeledes]

Here is a quote from that article:

[SIGN]“Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an “absolute” assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: “See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22)”[/SIGN]

Now, to me this is strange, because Catholics typically approach this verse as if we could individualize it. Yet it is clear that the context is to the NATION of Israel being cut off for lack of faith. This speaks to how a nation (or a body of believers) can drift over years.

First, lets establish what Paul says regarding the nation of Israel:

Romans 11:1

1I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

So from the very beginning Paul makes it clear that God has not rejected Israel as a nation - Paul emphasizes this point by saying he is an Israelite himself - and thus establishes that divine rejection involves individuals and not nations.

So Paul is not talking about individuals and not nations. The branches clearly stand for individuals:

**17But if SOME of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among THEM and became partaker WITH THEM of the rich root of the olive tree, **

First of all, note that Paul clearly says that only SOME of the branches were cut off. He is clearly referring to those who belong to the nation of Israel. The branches (plural) do not represent the nation of Israel, they represent individuals (i.e. SOME). Only some Israelites have been cut off because of unbelief and that means Israelite branches remained. That’s why Paul says that the Gentiles were grafted in among them and that the believing Gentiles partake of the rich root WITH THEM? Among who and with who? Among and with the believing Israelite branches that remained and hence not cut off (i.e. Peter, Paul, James, etc.). So when he talks about being cut off, Paul is clearly referring to individuals and not nations.

18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you )stand by your faith (AG)Do not be conceited, but fear;

Again, this makes it clear that Paul has individuals in mind and not “nations.” Some members of the nation of Israel were broken off because of their unbelief, some Israelites have remained because they believe, and many Gentiles have been grafted in among the believing Israelites (i.e. natural branches) because they believe. Which means that not all Gentiles have been grafted in, only those who have become Christian. So just as individual Israelites have been broken off, individual Gentiles have been grafted in. But then Paul warns these believing Gentiles (i.e. you stand BY YOUR FAITH) that they should not be conceited but fear. Fear what?

21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Note that Paul says that if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare those who have been grafted in. And who are those who have been grafted in? Believing Gentiles, not pagans or false professors. And he tells these Gentiles BELIEVERS that He will not spare them either. They have experienced God kindness - being grafted into the olive tree and partaking of its root with the natural branches that have remained (i.e. believing Israelites)n - but they must continue in His kindness, otherwise the Gentile believers will be cut off from the olive tree. In other words, these Gentile believers must not be conceited, but fear being CUT OFF. If Paul believed that believers had absolute assurance of final salvation and he taught this doctrine to the Gentile Christians in Rome, then it’s rather odd that he would tell them to fear being cut off and that God will not spare them. If a Christian has absolute assurance, then there is no reason to fear not being spared and being cut off? In fact, if the audience to which Paul originally addressed these words believed that they had absolute assurance, then what purpose did this warning serve if they absolutely know that they can never be cut off? How can they “fear” something that absolutely know will never happen?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

First, lets establish what Paul says regarding the nation of Israel:

Romans 11:1

1I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

So from the very beginning Paul makes it clear that God has not rejected Israel as a nation - Paul emphasizes this point by saying he is an Israelite himself - and thus establishes that divine rejection involves individuals and not nations.

So Paul is not talking about individuals and not nations. The branches clearly stand for individuals:

**17But if SOME of the branches **were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among THEM and became partaker WITH THEM of the rich root of the olive tree,

First of all, note that Paul clearly says that only SOME of the branches were cut off. He is clearly referring to those who belong to the nation of Israel. The branches (plural) do not represent the nation of Israel, they represent individuals (i.e. SOME). Only some Israelites have been cut off because of unbelief and that means Israelite branches remained. That’s why Paul says that the Gentiles were grafted in among them and that the believing Gentiles partake of the rich root WITH THEM? Among who and with who? Among and with the believing Israelite branches that remained and hence not cut off (i.e. Peter, Paul, James, etc.). So when he talks about being cut off, Paul is clearly referring to individuals and not nations.

18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you )stand by your faith (AG)Do not be conceited, but fear;

Again, this makes it clear that Paul has individuals in mind and not “nations.” Some members of the nation of Israel were broken off because of their unbelief, some Israelites have remained because they believe, and many Gentiles have been grafted in among the believing Israelites (i.e. natural branches) because they believe. Which means that not all Gentiles have been grafted in, only those who have become Christian. So just as individual Israelites have been broken off, individual Gentiles have been grafted in. But then Paul warns these believing Gentiles (i.e. you stand BY YOUR FAITH) that they should not be conceited but fear. Fear what?

21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Note that Paul says that if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare those who have been grafted in. And who are those who have been grafted in? Believing Gentiles, not pagans or false professors. And he tells these Gentiles BELIEVERS that He will not spare them either. They have experienced God kindness - being grafted into the olive tree and partaking of its root with the natural branches that have remained (i.e. believing Israelites)n - but they must continue in His kindness, otherwise the Gentile believers will be cut off from the olive tree. In other words, these Gentile believers must not be conceited, but fear being CUT OFF. If Paul believed that believers had absolute assurance of final salvation and he taught this doctrine to the Gentile Christians in Rome, then it’s rather odd that he would tell them to fear being cut off and that God will not spare them. If a Christian has absolute assurance, then there is no reason to fear not being spared and being cut off? In fact, if the audience to which Paul originally addressed these words believed that they had absolute assurance, then what purpose did this warning serve if they absolutely know that they can never be cut off? How can they “fear” something that absolutely know will never happen?

God Bless,
Michael

I apologize for being so repetitive in the first half of my post.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[tqualey]

Hi, MikeLedes,

Great post!

It just boggles my mind how anyone can deny that we are free to act as we will - even the convicts I teach as a volunteer prison chaplain just knowingly smiled when I ask them about that. The initial joke is the incompetence of their lawyer … then they say how that they did the crime and are spending the time.

Equally boggling to my mind is how anyone can run around with this ‘absolute assurance’ delusion and just ignore all of the references in the Bible where this just isn’t the case. Two examples have impressed me and I would like to pass them on.

King Saul was hand picked by God to lead Israel - a very big surprise to Saul - and he followed in path set by God for a while and was rewarded for his efforts (1Sam 9 and 10). Then he refused to worship the True God and worshiped idols. Here is a very clear choice that we can go back and look at over and over again. Saul started well, but chose not to end well.

Judas Iscariot was hand picked by God to be on of the Twelve - while not recorded, I guess he was also surprised. The assumption is that Judas was able to work miracles like the other Apostles - no evidence to the contrary. So, like Saul, he too was off to a good start - and then freely chose to betray Jesus Christ - and have the Author of Life killed.

These are sad and truly tragic stories of foolish and sinful choices made by each man’s exercise of his own will. God did not force these men to sin - they chose to follow the Devil and not God.

We, too, can make foolish and sinful choices right up to the time we are called to face our Divine Judge. Let us pray to always remain faithful to His Love.

First, lets establish what Paul says regarding the nation of Israel:

Romans 11:1

1I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

So from the very beginning Paul makes it clear that God has not rejected Israel as a nation - Paul emphasizes this point by saying he is an Israelite himself - and thus establishes that divine rejection involves individuals and not nations.

So Paul is not talking about individuals and not nations. The branches clearly stand for individuals:

**17But if SOME of the branches **were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among THEM and became partaker WITH THEM of the rich root of the olive tree,

First of all, note that Paul clearly says that only SOME of the branches were cut off. He is clearly referring to those who belong to the nation of Israel. The branches (plural) do not represent the nation of Israel, they represent individuals (i.e. SOME). Only some Israelites have been cut off because of unbelief and that means Israelite branches remained. That’s why Paul says that the Gentiles were grafted in among them and that the believing Gentiles partake of the rich root WITH THEM? Among who and with who? Among and with the believing Israelite branches that remained and hence not cut off (i.e. Peter, Paul, James, etc.). So when he talks about being cut off, Paul is clearly referring to individuals and not nations.

18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you )stand by your faith (AG)Do not be conceited, but fear;

Again, this makes it clear that Paul has individuals in mind and not “nations.” Some members of the nation of Israel were broken off because of their unbelief, some Israelites have remained because they believe, and many Gentiles have been grafted in among the believing Israelites (i.e. natural branches) because they believe. Which means that not all Gentiles have been grafted in, only those who have become Christian. So just as individual Israelites have been broken off, individual Gentiles have been grafted in. But then Paul warns these believing Gentiles (i.e. you stand BY YOUR FAITH) that they should not be conceited but fear. Fear what?

21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Note that Paul says that if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare those who have been grafted in. And who are those who have been grafted in? Believing Gentiles, not pagans or false professors. And he tells these Gentiles BELIEVERS that He will not spare them either. They have experienced God kindness - being grafted into the olive tree and partaking of its root with the natural branches that have remained (i.e. believing Israelites)n - but they must continue in His kindness, otherwise the Gentile believers will be cut off from the olive tree. In other words, these Gentile believers must not be conceited, but fear being CUT OFF. If Paul believed that believers had absolute assurance of final salvation and he taught this doctrine to the Gentile Christians in Rome, then it’s rather odd that he would tell them to fear being cut off and that God will not spare them. If a Christian has absolute assurance, then there is no reason to fear not being spared and being cut off? In fact, if the audience to which Paul originally addressed these words believed that they had absolute assurance, then what purpose did this warning serve if they absolutely know that they can never be cut off? How can they “fear” something that absolutely know will never happen?

God Bless,
Michael

God Bless,

 

[Carlan]

Hi, MikeLedes,

Great post!

It just boggles my mind how anyone can deny that we are free to act as we will - even the convicts I teach as a volunteer prison chaplain just knowingly smiled when I ask them about that. The initial joke is the incompetence of their lawyer … then they say how that they did the crime and are spending the time.

Equally boggling to my mind is how anyone can run around with this ‘absolute assurance’ delusion and just ignore all of the references in the Bible where this just isn’t the case. Two examples have impressed me and I would like to pass them on.

King Saul was hand picked by God to lead Israel - a very big surprise to Saul - and he followed in path set by God for a while and was rewarded for his efforts (1Sam 9 and 10). Then he refused to worship the True God and worshiped idols. Here is a very clear choice that we can go back and look at over and over again. Saul started well, but chose not to end well.

Judas Iscariot was hand picked by God to be on of the Twelve - while not recorded, I guess he was also surprised. The assumption is that Judas was able to work miracles like the other Apostles - no evidence to the contrary. So, like Saul, he too was off to a good start - and then freely chose to betray Jesus Christ - and have the Author of Life killed.

These are sad and truly tragic stories of foolish and sinful choices made by each man’s exercise of his own will. God did not force these men to sin - they chose to follow the Devil and not God.

We, too, can make foolish and sinful choices right up to the time we are called to face our Divine Judge. Let us pray to always remain faithful to His Love.

God Bless,

Tqualey and Mikeledes, You all are all great Catholic Apologists on this thread, keep up the good work. I love you all and God continue to bless what you do. :clapping::extrahappy: Carlan