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1voice
Guest
So how does this prove that Jesus was not praying for the protection of Peter’s soul from satan’s power?
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ParkerD
Guest
1voice,
Jesus wasn’t quoting Paul’s epistle to the Ephesians when He said “I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not” (present tense verb). He reminded Peter that he needed to “be converted”, which is something that happens in this life for a person who gets the Holy Ghost in their life and listens to the promptings and guidance of the Holy Ghost. They can only do that by having faith in Christ and in the power of His redemption.
So what Peter needed was faith in Christ, and this is what we need also. It is about the “here and now”, not about the “hereafter”.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Required, no, but we do believe God has the desire for all to be with Him in heaven and that prayers for the souls or those we loved in life, but are now dead, are heard and answered.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Ummm, ParkerD, this is an argument against your proxy work for the dead.
I think you are confused about what we are praying for when we pray for the souls of the dead. In short, a person is judged by Jesus at the moment of their death. The souls we are praying for have already been judged as going to heaven, to live in the presence of God. Our prayers do not convert them, they are petitions to God to have mercy on the souls in purgatory.
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1voice
Guest
Parker,
The entire armor … is Jesus… it describes facets of his nature.
Are you implying that the faith that Paul exhorted the Ephesians to put on is not the same faith that Jesus strengthened, through prayer, in Peter? … With the same goal of guarding the soul?
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TexanKnight
Guest
It is safe to assume Brother Parker agrees with my post regarding The Lord’s Prayer
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Probably more safe to assume he’s ignoring you.
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batman1973
Guest
Yeah, I get the feeling he’s not to fond of you.
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zaffiroborant
Guest
Yes he was the world’s Greatest Teacher, it is a wonder to see how He lays a foundation of knowledge and builds upon it. It fills one with amazement and gratitude to see Him teaching us in small lessons, each building on the previous, leading us to the summit, the source, Himself , the Eucharist.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
In my experience, it is psychologically difficult for a TBM to hear what T-Knight is saying. Pray, pray, pray.
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ParkerD
Guest
I suppose you are aware of the “ignore list” option. Since what I choose to do is answer sincere questions or clarify sincere misconceptions, and since he has had ample opportunity and knows how to get answers to sincere questions other than by needing to ask me, then there is not the slightest need for me to answer his questions. So although I have occasionally answered some, at this point I don’t see the need and use the ignore list that is a worthwhile tool.
As to your earlier question, several have answered it in this thread, and I also consider that you have taken your “hand to the plow” and should not “look back” since you have taken the plow in hand, or are in the process.
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Telstar
Guest
I understand the word doctrine, perfectly. We’re discussing religion, so any other definition is irrelevant. How does my saying that make me unwilling to have a meaningful conversation? Pot/kettle?
I’d say that the Apostles taught others what Jesus taught them. John clearly stated, not everything that Jesus said and did was written down. There were many things that were only passed on to others through oral tradition, especially in the early days of the Church. The Jews taught scripture to their children orally, because most of them didn’t read or write. Praying for others was an early tradition in the Church, including praying for souls.
Miriam is right. Our “daily bread” refers to the Holy Eucharist that Jesus would ask to be shared by all, in His memory. It’s the spiritual food that gives everlasting life, just as Jesus said it would.
Isn’t our entire existence comprised of both body and soul? If I pray for someone’s soul, how am I not praying “for them”?
When I pray for someone’s salvation, I pray for God to have mercy on them and convert their heart, so they can be saved if they’re on the wrong path. If I know someone’s living in sin and they won’t listen to me if I try to tell them so, I ask God to do it for me, because I love them. God’s the one that acts on my prayer, or refuses if He has reasons not to. But, there’s always a chance that God will do it because He loves me, that’s my hope.
I’m usually more concerned with the spiritual welfare of other souls than I am with praying for stuff to make my life easier.
That’s exactly what I pray for when I pray for the salvation of souls. I pray that they’ll turn their hearts to God and ask His forgiveness, before it’s too late.
Joseph Smith says this in the D&C:
“And inasmuch as mine enemies come against you … ye shall curse them; And whomsoever ye curse, I will curse, and ye shall avenge me of mine enemies (Doctrine and Covenants, 103:24-25).”
That doesn’t really sound much like anything that Jesus would ever say. He came to preach forgiveness and mercy, not vengeance. He also taught us to love and forgive our enemies, so why would He contradict Himself like that?
No, it shows concern for the spiritual welfare of others, which is much more important than their temporal welfare, which we’re also taught to be concerned about.
Whether they knew or not, they were beyond cruel in their actions. By the judgements of most men, He had every reason not to forgive them, but He did.
Our most important battle is the spiritual battle against evil. What happened to forgiving our brothers “seventy times seven times”?
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Telstar
Guest
Thank you.
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ParkerD
Guest
That quote was talking specifically about people (“enemies”) who had driven a peaceful group of settlers who had improved the land and built homes, from their homes and taken over their purchased, improved property that was privately owned having been paid for.
If you are suggesting that Jesus taught to allow enemies to do this and get away with it, and for the person whose land is taken over in that way to just “forgive them and love them anyway” and leave the situation with the evil-doers having taken over the land and homes, and that the person not do something about it–then I think you have misunderstood the teaching of Jesus about the kind of enemy He was teaching about.
If you really are suggesting “just forgive them and leave the situation alone”, then if the Catholic church were to publicize that as what Jesus taught and what all Catholics are expected to do, then I think they would find some places on earth where there would be unbelievers who would “drive” an owner from his/her home by force, thus breaking the law of the land, and it would mean the Catholic would be expected to just let it go and forgive them.
(I don’t think the Catholic church would do that, and I don’t think it was expected by the Savior of anyone to just do that in what He taught.)
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TexanKnight
Guest
No. I think it is more of a situation is that he simply can’t deal with me. He knows I know the truth about the LDS Church. He knows what I post is correct. If he answers me, it highlights my points that he knows are true. I refuted his comment that Christ did not ask the apostles to pray for each other. By ignoring me, that gets buried more quickly than if he debated me.
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ParkerD
Guest
Telstar,
By the way, I do plan to answer your entire previous post, either tonight or tomorrow morning early. I didn’t have time last night nor do I now. All this does bear on the subject of “why we are here in mortality”, and on the plan of salvation provided by Father in Heaven for each of us.
By the way, I do plan to answer your entire previous post, either tonight or tomorrow morning early. I didn’t have time last night nor do I now. All this does bear on the subject of “why we are here in mortality”, and on the plan of salvation provided by Father in Heaven for each of us.
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batman1973
Guest
That is a good,honest reply. Thank You
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1voice
Guest
Parker,
You have not shown here or in any of your previous responses that Jesus, who “ever intercedes” for us … did not pray for the salvation of souls. Through the strengthening of our faith … or through any other facet of God that has been established by God to protect us.
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Telstar
Guest
I wanted to answer this last night, but didn’t finish the first part until about 2 AM… well past my bedtime.
ParkerD:
So, when we “take up our cross”, we should also offer it up to God, as part of our personal sacrifice for our own sins (our penance), in the same way that the Jews offered their individual sacrifices at the Temple. It’s a very important part of how we repay our own personal debt to God, for our own sins. If we aren’t willing to carry our own cross and offer it up to God like Jesus did, or if we don’t do it very well (by constantly complaining, or being angry about having to suffer), then the benefits we would have gained from our personal sufferings, and the graces that would have come to us by humbly accepting them, are all wasted.
ParkerD:
Jesus suffered for our sins, not to keep us from suffering pain or sickness. He will always comfort us in our pain and sorrow, the same way He always did it for the faithful, in the past. If we ask Him, He will always be there for us, because He’s God and He really loves us. What He suffered while He was on earth didn’t change the way He helps and comforts us, in this life.
ParkerD:
ParkerD:
It was to remind us that we should all bear our own crosses (suffering) as He bore His, with patient humility, and without any anger, animosity or complaint. His carrying of the cross was a very important part of His sacrificial act, that would be the fulfillment of the Jewish practice of offering a lamb on the altar as a holocaust for their sins, during Passover. It represented the sacrificial lamb being led to the slaughter.
During Passover, there wasn’t only one lamb offered to God on the Temple altars. There was one that was offered by the High Priest, for all the sins of Israel, but every individual or family was also expected to make their own offering of a lamb, or doves, etc., during Passover, for the expiation of their own personal sins. They also offered other sacrifices during the year, for the same purpose.
So, when we “take up our cross”, we should also offer it up to God, as part of our personal sacrifice for our own sins (our penance), in the same way that the Jews offered their individual sacrifices at the Temple. It’s a very important part of how we repay our own personal debt to God, for our own sins. If we aren’t willing to carry our own cross and offer it up to God like Jesus did, or if we don’t do it very well (by constantly complaining, or being angry about having to suffer), then the benefits we would have gained from our personal sufferings, and the graces that would have come to us by humbly accepting them, are all wasted.
I’m not exactly sure what you mean by all this, since your beliefs are so different from mine. As I said above, we’re still required to make offerings to God, to repay what we owe Him, “to the last farthing”, for our own sins. It’s called doing penance, and is an important part of our “repentance”. While Jesus made it possible for us to receive God’s forgiveness, we must all do our own part, as well, because none of us is perfect. That’s one of the main reasons that suffering still exists in this world, so we can offer it up to God as payment for our sins. But, we can also offer it up for the benefit of others, just as Jesus did. By doing that, we volunteer to do what Simon of Cyrene was forced to do by the Roman soldiers. In our own small way, we also help Jesus carry His heavy cross, to ease His pain.
Jesus suffered for our sins, not to keep us from suffering pain or sickness. He will always comfort us in our pain and sorrow, the same way He always did it for the faithful, in the past. If we ask Him, He will always be there for us, because He’s God and He really loves us. What He suffered while He was on earth didn’t change the way He helps and comforts us, in this life.
While what Jesus did throughout His Passion was certainly more than sufficient for all of us, He is still moved by our willingness to “go the extra mile”, and in an act of pure love for Him and our fellow men, we do even more than what’s required of us, in order to help others who are unable, or unwilling, to do it for themselves. This is how we grow in love and holiness (sanctification), by thinking about and doing for others, over and above what we do for ourselves. God is touched by our little acts of love for Him, and will give us much more than we ask for, in return for that little act of unselfish love.
I disagree. I believe we should always follow the teachings of Jesus, on earth, because we owe it to Him for all that He has done for us. Also, we should do it so that we can enjoy ‘the fruits of our labor’, that we plant while we’re here in this world, when we’re finally rewarded by being able to live forever in Heaven, with Him. So, we really don’t just do it to find ‘happiness’ or anything else for ourselves while we’re living in this world. Although, it will always give us great joy and happiness, when we follow Jesus as He taught us to do.
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Telstar
Guest
And, the rest of my response to Parker:
ParkerD:
Then why does Paul say he’s praying for the conversion and salvation of others? Is he only praying for the things related to their life on earth, or the actual salvation of their immortal souls?
ParkerD:
Salvation (eternal life with God) is never guaranteed to anyone, without a lot of hard work and attention on our part. Losing our salvation is something that we should always be aware of being a possibility, while we’re making our way toward our personal sanctification in this life. Anyone can lose their salvation, by giving in to despair, or abandoning their faith in God along the way. So, we should always pray for God to help us, as well as others, to persevere in our faith, all the way to the end of our lives.
ParkerD:
ParkerD:
“[Romans 10:1] Brethren, the will of my heart, indeed, and my prayer to God, is for them unto salvation. [2] For I bear them witness, that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. [3] For they, not knowing the justice of God, and seeking to establish their own, have not submitted themselves to the justice of God.”
Then why does Paul say he’s praying for the conversion and salvation of others? Is he only praying for the things related to their life on earth, or the actual salvation of their immortal souls?
“[Philippians 2:12] Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.”
Salvation (eternal life with God) is never guaranteed to anyone, without a lot of hard work and attention on our part. Losing our salvation is something that we should always be aware of being a possibility, while we’re making our way toward our personal sanctification in this life. Anyone can lose their salvation, by giving in to despair, or abandoning their faith in God along the way. So, we should always pray for God to help us, as well as others, to persevere in our faith, all the way to the end of our lives.
If we didn’t pray for our salvation, and that of our loved ones, then how would God know that we truly desire it with all our heart? If we don’t tell Him how much we love Him and long to be with Him, forever, how will He know that we’re sincere? How will He know that we’re following His Laws out of pure love for Him, and not just for the sake of gaining some kind of personal reward, as if it was a ‘payment due’, that we somehow think we deserve or earned for ourselves?
Actually, I pray that God will open your heart to the real truth, so you can finally discern the true promptings of the Holy Spirit. I wouldn’t expect that He would ever confirm you in your current beliefs. But, that will certainly be your own choice to make for yourself, when all is said and done. All I can do is try to ignite that little spark of faith and love that’s inside you.
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