Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

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Jerusha and Telstar,

Please understand that what seems to be a misunderstanding going on here is about word use originating from the teachings of the Bible, with the word “repent” or the word “repentance” as compared with the words “do penance”.
Perhaps we should turn to Merriam-Webster’s for some clarification on the meanings of those words.Definition of PENANCE
1: an act of self-abasement, mortification, or devotion performed to show sorrow or repentance for sin

2: a sacramental rite that is practiced in Roman, Eastern, and some Anglican churches and that consists of private confession, absolution, and a penance directed by the confessor

3: something (as a hardship or penalty) resembling an act of penance (as in compensating for an offense)

Definition of REPENT
intransitive verb

1: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one’s life

2a : to feel regret or contrition

2b: to change one’s mind

transitive verb

1: to cause to feel regret or contrition

2: to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for

Definition of REPENTANCE
: the action or process of repenting especially for misdeeds or moral shortcomings
It looks like repentance is a part of the process of repenting, and penance is also an important part of that process.
The New Jerusalem Bible has only one instance of the words “do penance”, and it is in the book of Daniel.
Which is cause enough for me to completely ignore it.
The Douay Rheims Bible has only a few instances of the word “repent”, and many instances of the words “do penance” where in the same passage in the New Jerusalem Bible, the word translation is “repent”.
The Douay-Rheims has 19 instances of “repent”, and there are 29 instances of the exact phrase “do penance” with 66 total references to “penance”.
The King James Bible has no instances of the words “do penance”, but many instances of the words “repent” and “repentance”.
Almost a good enough reason for me to ignore another version, because it confuses the issue.
How do those who use the New Jerusalem Bible discuss their Bible passages with those who use the Douay Rheims Bible translation, and not confuse each other about meanings?
By everyone using the oldest and most accurate English translation of the Latin Vulgate Bible that was originally translated into Latin by St. Jerome, that being the Douay-Rheims Version. 😃
 
Telstar (no extra ‘e’ :D), the Douay-Rheims Version is my favorite and the one I have has all the words of Christ in red.

Wow better translation but has the KJV red letters. 🙂
 
directed by the confessor

3: something (as a hardship or penalty) resembling an act of penance (as in compensating for an offense)
The following show quite clearly that the LDS church does indeed impose penances on it’s members, primarily by denying privileges, this is a public form of penance since everyone can see that a person has been striped of privileges.
“Much has been written in scripture of that part of true repentance that is confession. It is wholly proper for the transgressor to go to the bishop or stake or mission president and to confess voluntarily the transgressions he has committed. He should be frank and offer the information and answer honestly all the questions propounded to him by that authority. This brings humility and takes courage: The Church’s authority will in confidence hear his story and suggest recovery plans and impose the penalties.”
“One form of punishment is deprivation, and so if one is not permitted to partake of the sacrament or to use his priesthood or to go to the temple or to preach or pray in any of the meetings, it constitutes a degree of embarrassment and deprivation and punishment. In fact, the principal punishment that the Church can deal is deprivation from privileges.”
“If no penalties are assessed, if no punishment is required, if no deprivation is expected, then what would induce the average transgressor to change his ways?”
The above is from a New Era article by Spencer Kimball the article as a whole addresses “repentance” quite thoroughly but is despairingly short on forgiveness. Such a bleak, hopeless view on God’s forgiveness.

Kimball is the author of The Miracle of Forgiveness a book I’ve seen retitled It’s a Miracle if you’re Forgiven., and from this quote from the above article I can see why.
To repent of a sin and then to tamper with it again or permit it to invade, even slightly, is to lose the repentance and its beneficent effects, and “the former sins return, saith the Lord God.”(D&C 82:7.)
 
The following show quite clearly that the LDS church does indeed impose penances on it’s members, primarily by denying privileges, this is a public form of penance since everyone can see that a person has been striped of privileges.

The above is from a New Era article by Spencer Kimball the article as a whole addresses “repentance” quite thoroughly but is despairingly short on forgiveness. Such a bleak, hopeless view on God’s forgiveness.

Kimball is the author of The Miracle of Forgiveness a book I’ve seen retitled It’s a Miracle if you’re Forgiven., and from this quote from the above article I can see why.
Thanks, Zaffiroborant, for providing the link to the article itself, thus providing the opportunity for a reader to see the context about loss of privileges when repenting completely for sexual sins.

The article will make more sense about the forgiveness part of God’s love to one who has a background about “Alma” such that they would know of his clarion call about how it feels to be forgiven by God, and how sweet that joy is.
 
Penance is something willingly taken on, not something imposed on the person. Jesus is sufficient, but out of love for Him, we can do more. “Three Our Fathers and three Hail Mary’s” isn’t exactly burdensome.
 
Thanks, Zaffiroborant, for providing the link to the article itself, thus providing the opportunity for a reader to see the context about loss of privileges when repenting completely for sexual sins.

The article will make more sense about the forgiveness part of God’s love to one who has a background about “Alma” such that they would know of his clarion call about how it feels to be forgiven by God, and how sweet that joy is.
We not only know the joy of having the burden of ours sins lifted through forgiveness we are also sure of our forgiveness knowing it will not be rescinded. We know that we are not expected to overcome sin perfectly the first time, that though we make the same mistakes, commit the same sins, when we come to Christ with a broken and contrite heart, we will be forgiven and He will not snatch it away from us.
We are assured of our forgiveness, I see no assurance from Kimball or other articles just more like this:
“But unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return.” 10 Joseph Smith declared: “Repentance is a thing that cannot be trifled with every day. Daily transgression and daily repentance is not … pleasing in the sight of God.”
 
We not only know the joy of having the burden of ours sins lifted through forgiveness we are also sure of our forgiveness knowing it will not be rescinded. We know that we are not expected to overcome sin perfectly the first time, that though we make the same mistakes, commit the same sins, when we come to Christ with a broken and contrite heart, we will be forgiven and He will not snatch it away from us.
We are assured of our forgiveness, I see no assurance from Kimball or other articles just more like this:
Zaffiroborant,

A Latter-day Saint who has repented of either a one-time sin or of a pattern of repeated sins that were similar, knows the joy of the forgiveness from God because they feel joyfully forgiven by Him and are aware of the atoning grace of the Savior. They are also aware of having made covenants, and of having entered back into the covenant relationship with Jesus Christ wherein they will feel both His confidence in them and the power of having faith and trust in Him.

With that confidence they feel from Him and the trust they place in Him, they will not return to their prior sin because it is foreign to what they want in their life. This is because they have felt the change within their heart, and know the joy that change has brought into their life.
 
Zaffiroborant,

A Latter-day Saint who has repented of either a one-time sin or of a pattern of repeated sins that were similar, knows the joy of the forgiveness from God because they feel joyfully forgiven by Him and are aware of the atoning grace of the Savior. They are also aware of having made covenants, and of having entered back into the covenant relationship with Jesus Christ wherein they will feel both His confidence in them and the power of having faith and trust in Him.

With that confidence they feel from Him and the trust they place in Him, they will not return to their prior sin because it is foreign to what they want in their life. This is because they have felt the change within their heart, and know the joy that change has brought into their life.
Thank goodness that Jesus is more forgiving than the LDS Church
 
Zaffiroborant,

With that confidence they feel from Him and the trust they place in Him, they will not return to their prior sin because it is foreign to what they want in their life. This is because they have felt the change within their heart, and know the joy that change has brought into their life.
Until you I have never seen an LDS claim they don’t commit the same sin more than once.
 
Until you I have never seen an LDS claim they don’t commit the same sin more than once.
Zaffiroborant,

The subject that became the discussion point introduced by the article from President Kimball that you cited is “sexual sin”, and particularly involves youth since the article came from the LDS youth magazine, “The New Era”.

The article was urging LDS youth to recognize the seriousness of sexual sins, and to recognize the urgency of sincerely repenting.

There are indeed LDS youth who sincerely repent of a sexual sin and don’t commit the same sin again.

I hope to be able to assume that there are Catholic youth who also sincerely repent of a sexual sin and don’t commit the same sin again. Is that a safe assumption, or am I wrong in that assumption?
 
I think it is important to note that Mormons teach that if a person commits the same sin, the previous instance of that sin is no longer forgiven.
 
I remember a sign that was put up in our Primary room:“Before your baptized, God writes in pencil. After your baptized, He writes in ink!” Great, twisted way to tell kids about forgiveness! I believe it’s the other way around.
 
I remember a sign that was put up in our Primary room:“Before your baptized, God writes in pencil. After your baptized, He writes in ink!” Great, twisted way to tell kids about forgiveness! I believe it’s the other way around.
Yeah, I remember as a kid lying awake at night in shear terror. Worried over that ink and the teaching that now you’re baptized, you are fair game for everything evil under the sun.
 
Yeah, I remember as a kid lying awake at night in shear terror. Worried over that ink and the teaching that now you’re baptized, you are fair game for everything evil under the sun.
I had a sign on my mission that said “for everything you did today, you WILL be judged!”

was always afraid
 
Zaffiroborant,

The subject that became the discussion point introduced by the article from President Kimball that you cited is “sexual sin”, and particularly involves youth since the article came from the LDS youth magazine, “The New Era”.

The article was urging LDS youth to recognize the seriousness of sexual sins, and to recognize the urgency of sincerely repenting.

There are indeed LDS youth who sincerely repent of a sexual sin and don’t commit the same sin again.

I hope to be able to assume that there are Catholic youth who also sincerely repent of a sexual sin and don’t commit the same sin again. Is that a safe assumption, or am I wrong in that assumption?
Neither article I referred was discussing “sexual sin” this one discussed
repentance and this one discussed forgiveness, and I certainly didn’t introduce “sexual sin” to the conversation. This is totally out of left field.:rolleyes:
 
Neither article I referred was discussing “sexual sin” this one discussed
repentance and this one discussed forgiveness, and I certainly didn’t introduce “sexual sin” to the conversation. This is totally out of left field.:rolleyes:
Zaffiroborant,

I guess I made two assumptions:
  1. That you had read somewhat about Corianton the son of Alma who was receiving the counsel of his father presented in Alma 42 but which began in Alma 39, thus:
The commandments of Alma to his son Corianton.
Comprising chapters 39 to 42 inclusive.
Chapter 39 (Chapter Heading)
Sexual sin is an abomination—Corianton’s sins kept the Zoramites from receiving the word—Christ’s redemption is retroactive in saving the faithful who preceded it. About 74 B.C.
  1. That you had some awareness through previous conversations with Latter-day Saints, that when a sin is serious enough for a confession to a bishop, and this sin was by a youth, then it is most likely because of a sexual sin. All the pointed remarks used by President Kimball in the latter part of that article point toward a sin that often necessitated a probation from partaking of communion, which would usually mean it was a sexual sin.
Here is a section of the article:
To lie about serious sins is to add fuel to the fire and heat to its flames.
Very frequently people think they have repented and are worthy of forgiveness when all they have done is to express sorrow or regret at the unfortunate happening, but their repentance is barely started. Until they have begun to make changes in their lives, transformation in their habits, and to add new thoughts to their minds, to be sorry is only a bare beginning.
Much has been written in scripture of that part of true repentance that is confession. It is wholly proper for the transgressor to go to the bishop or stake or mission president and to confess voluntarily the transgressions he has committed. He should be frank and offer the information and answer honestly all the questions propounded to him by that authority. This brings humility and takes courage: The Church’s authority will in confidence hear his story and suggest recovery plans and impose the penalties.
In transgressions of lesser magnitude he may place the person on probation or in the more serious ones he may disfellowship or excommunicate.
So these are the reasons that I assumed someone who had the background of having studied somewhat about Latter-day Saints and learned somewhat about the very few kinds of sins that require “confession to the bishop”, would understand that President Kimball was alluding to sexual sins.
 
Parker,

Who does the “prophet” confess his serious/sexual sins to? Or is it just assumed that he doesn’t sin?

Just wondering. 🤷
 
Parker,

(A reader can look at your questions–I am not going to re-state them.)
Telstar (Lori),

Your questions show a lack of knowledge about the subject, even though you have said you have Latter-day Saint friends. (It makes me wonder about whether they are enough of a friend to ask them “delicate” questions.)

Those questions certainly do show a major difference between the religious backgrounds. I realize, since others have discussed this and I have also read about it in the newspaper, that there is what I now understand is the continuation of the law of Moses practice of the priest doing what we had discussed earlier–what could be called a “penance offering”, since as you noted the Douay Rheims translation uses the words “do penance” instead of the word “repent”. So when the priest or the pope “does penance” and that is publicized, I realize that doesn’t mean there is some serious sin involved, but means that this is following what you earlier discussed about the “law of sacrifice” and “an offering”.

Latter-day Saints are familiar through seeing the example of each married couple on many occasions, that the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve (of which the most senior apostle becomes the president of the church after the death of the president) are or have been (if their spouse is deceased, such as Elder Scott whose wife died several years ago) happily married men and their wife often travels with them. There is no need for Latter-day Saints to carry around with them any doubt as to whether any of these leaders has been unfaithful to their marriage covenant. (For one thing, we can see their love for their wife in their eyes and in how they treat her.) But if any of them had that kind of serious sin (of which a case happened in the early 1900’s when an apostle was excommunicated and dropped from the Quorum of the Twelve immediately and went through the process of personal repentance), then they would confess it to one of their fellow quorum members of those two quorums and go through all repentance steps including excommunication if it were the kind of sin you asked about–but here is some important background:

Latter-day Saint youth who are keeping the commandments (of which the apostles were once a youth and kept the commandments in their youth) deal with repentance often in their youth from everyday kinds of “sins” such as anger or perhaps having contention with a parent or a sibling, and understand the idea of covenant keeping and of the blessings of partaking worthily each week of communion. There are thousands and tens of thousands of Latter-day Saint youth who never have a sexual sin in their life–it would be anathema to them. They truly have on the “whole armor of God” in their make-up and their countenance (if you’re familiar with Paul’s use of that metaphor).

There are also very careful, discerning interviews before a man is called as a leader in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and if they had ever had that kind of sin in their past, they wouldn’t be called as an apostle.

A bishop would be excommunicated immediately if they took upon themselves that sin.

Some people are able to see purity in the eyes of a person they are seeing, whether on television or in person. I assure you that I can see purity in the eyes of the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, the Seventy, and the women leaders who speak in General Conference. It shows in their eyes, just as the Savior said about the eyes. Purity is in their countenance, and they radiate the joy of living the gospel, as does their spouse.
 
But that is not “doing penance for our sins”. It may be for “help in overcoming our sins”, yes.
Doing penance is for help in overcoming our sins
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CCC:
1460 The penance the confessor imposes must take into account the penitent’s personal situation and must seek his spiritual good. It must correspond as far as possible with the gravity and nature of the sins committed. It can consist of prayer, an offering, works of mercy, service of neighbor, voluntary self-denial, sacrifices, and above all the patient acceptance of the cross we must bear. Such penances help configure us to Christ, who alone expiated our sins once for all. They allow us to become co-heirs with the risen Christ, "provided we suffer with him."63
 
I have a personal rule that others might want to examine. If a spiritual/religious belief has psychological/sociological benefit, then it is valid/legitimate in God’s eyes. When I test various aspects of Catholicism with this rule, it is a clear winner among the world’s religions (although the Dali Lama might disagree ;)) Mormonism and Islam are clear losers.

As an example, when dealing with repeated sin, there may be more complex dynamics behind that sin. That is the reason why “avoiding the near occasion of sin,” and practicing the virtues which are opposite of the sin, and other strategies are so important. Struggling to not commit the sin can lead to judgmental attitudes, for example.
 
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