Scriptural Support for Transubstantiation

[jjkadavil]

You are entitled to believe according to what your Oriental Orthodox Church teaches. By the same token, Catholics are entitled to believe according to what the Catholic Church teaches. Is that so hard to understand?

This is a basic doctrine of Christianity. Cannot be different from church to church. So if there are two different views for two different apostolic churches, don’t we have to find out which is wrong and which right and embrace the right one? Isn’t that what is meant by Ecumenism. Or is ecumenism to tell other churches to believe in our doctrines and be united to us?

See above comment.

See above comment

No, you are wrong. It is exactly like having Jesus with us,

No it is exactly like having Jesus in front of us. But Jesus instituted sacrament of Eucharist to be part of our spiritual body, be food for our soul and be medicine to cure the wound we got from our sins

We are not starving. Do you not read in the Scriptures where Jesus says “But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst;” (John 4:14) or again: "I am the living bread that came down from heaven. " (John 6:51)

Yes I do read. But I called ‘starving’ the same need of ours to receive Jesus in the sacrament of Eucharist. That is not met if displayed outside. When you sit in front of monstrance you will be able to hear the sigh of Jesus not being able to get in you though being so close to you.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

The theory of ‘transubstantiation’ is perfect, but it fell in trouble when the sacramental bread started being used outside Holy Mass or outside the symbolisation of Sacramental meal. In the west you may not face many questioning about it. But please reaslise we are questioned by churches who have proper apostolic succession and we cannot disregard them just calling anti-catholic views.
You said transubstantiation is permanent change. It is. Now let us take it out of its symbolisation as meal. Do you know transubstantiation will be undone as soon as bread and wine lose their appearance? As losing their appearance is not a one-second incident but a gradual process, we cannot say at which point the transubstantiation is undone. We cannot also say transubstantiation gets undone gradually as ‘partial presence’ of Jesus cannot happen.
When It is used for sacrilage it is abuse even if Jesus is present in it or not. Their intention is disrespecting and disgracing our Lord. That is abuse. But they think Jesus is present there because they are stupid. When Holy Spirit gives us wisdom, what devil gives them is stupidity and false knowledge.
As Jesus died on the cross He left all the human limitations. He cannot be restrained and forced to be somewhere where He does not want to be. I’m sure my Lord is awesome.

I understand your concerns. And you have my answer. God be with you.

 

[TimothyH]

The theory of ‘transubstantiation’ is perfect, but it fell in trouble when the sacramental bread started being used outside Holy Mass or outside the symbolisation of Sacramental meal. In the west you may not face many questioning about it. But please reaslise we are questioned by churches who have proper apostolic succession and we cannot disregard them just calling anti-catholic views.
You said transubstantiation is permanent change. It is. Now let us take it out of its symbolisation as meal. Do you know transubstantiation will be undone as soon as bread and wine lose their appearance? As losing their appearance is not a one-second incident but a gradual process, we cannot say at which point the transubstantiation is undone. We cannot also say transubstantiation gets undone gradually as ‘partial presence’ of Jesus cannot happen.
When It is used for sacrilage it is abuse even if Jesus is present in it or not. Their intention is disrespecting and disgracing our Lord. That is abuse. But they think Jesus is present there because they are stupid. When Holy Spirit gives us wisdom, what devil gives them is stupidity and false knowledge.
As Jesus died on the cross He left all the human limitations. He cannot be restrained and forced to be somewhere where He does not want to be. I’m sure my Lord is awesome.

Just to be clear, Jesus did not leave human limitations only after the ressurection. He walked on water, commanded the wind and waves to be quiet, read minds, fed multitudes and raised the dead, all before being crucified.

Jesus willingly accepted all the limitations of his humanity, but Jesus also had the ability to step beyond those limitations at will prior to his passion, death and ressurection.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

Scriptural support for Transubstantiation is clear, even explicit.

*Instead of these things thou didst give thy people food of angels, and without their toil thou didst supply them from heaven with bread ready to eat, providing every pleasure and suited to every taste. For thy sustenance manifested thy sweetness toward thy children; and the bread, ministering to the desire of the one who took it, was changed to suit every one’s liking. Snow and ice withstood fire without melting, so that they might know that the crops of their enemies were being destroyed by the fire that blazed in the hail and flashed in the showers of rain; whereas the fire, in order that the righteous might be fed, even forgot its native power.

For creation, serving thee who hast made it, exerts itself to punish the unrighteous, and in kindness relaxes on behalf of those who trust in thee. Therefore at that time also, changed into all forms, it served thy all-nourishing bounty, according to the desire of those who had need,

(Wisdom 16:20-25)*

…and…

For the elements changed places with one another, as on a harp the notes vary the nature of the rhythm, while each note remains the same. This may be clearly inferred from the sight of what took place. For land animals were transformed into water creatures, and creatures that swim moved over to the land. Fire even in water retained its normal power, and water forgot its fire-quenching nature. Flames, on the contrary, failed to consume the flesh of perishable creatures that walked among them, nor did they melt the crystalline, easily melted kind of heavenly food. (Wisdom 19:18-21)

Elements changing places. Natural substances ignoring their physical properties.Creation transforming according to the needs of individuals. Even creatures being transformed into something they were not prior.

Sounds like transubstantiation to me.

-Tim-

 

[jjkadavil]

Just to be clear, Jesus did not leave human limitations only after the ressurection. He walked on water, commanded the wind and waves to be quiet, read minds, fed multitudes and raised the dead, all before being crucified.

Jesus willingly accepted all the limitations of his humanity, but Jesus also had the ability to step beyond those limitations at will prior to his passion, death and ressurection.

-Tim-

That’s not what church teaches. Jesus was also 100% human and had all the limitations we have. Peter walked on the water as well. Apostles worked miracles. He said to us If you have faith as small as a mustard seed we can also be a tool in the hands of Almighty to work these miracles. He works great miracles through hands of His faithful even today. If we people of little faith can do so much, how much Jesus the beloved Son of God Father could do?
This is the first time I am hearing of partition of Jesus like before and during passion. He was same always. If He ever went beyond His human limitations before passion I am sure He also must have gone beyond it while passion. There is all chances for that based on how we see Jesus in the garden of Gathsamen. If He could go beyond human limitation He would have approached passion so cool.

 

[jjkadavil]

He did not consider equality with God something to be retained, but emptied Himself and took the likeness of a servant. He became man, perfect, with a rational, intelligent and immortal soul, and with a mortal human body. He was born of a woman, born under the law,that He might redeem those who were under the law.And He has left for us the memorial of our salvation, this Mystery which we offer before our Almighty Father in the Holy Mass.