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YuRa
Guest
My questions are: Is Scripture alone the absolute we should follow when accepting or rejecting doctrines? Should tradition play a role in the doctrines we support?
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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
St.Paul says we should follow both oral Tradition and written.If scripture alone was sufficient there would not be so many divisions.God Bless You and welcome to the forum
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YuRa
Guest
Yes I agree we should follow oral tradition and written, but what happens when oral tradition contradicts written? Should we follow oral tradition of what the Scriptures say?
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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
Can you give examples of your statement?God Bless
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LutheranStudent
Guest
Dear Lisa4Catholics and YuRa,
I have a few scripture passages for you two:
"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! " - Galations 1:8
“Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.”
God Bless,
Lutheran Student
I have a few scripture passages for you two:
"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! " - Galations 1:8
“Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.”
- Deuteronomy 4:2
God Bless,
Lutheran Student
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YuRa
Guest
Alright I will, and I want everyone to know right off the ball that I am an Evangelical Christian and support all reform theology. (I might disagree with a little fraction of it but that is irrelevant).
So I will be very blunt in my example of how tradition can overrule Scripture.
I know things have changed in the last 10 years I believe, but I will be talking about Traditional Catholicism.
The Bible is very clear on the fact that we are saved apart from works. That we are saved by Gods grace in which he uses an instrument we know as being faith to save a person, and that works are a fruit of faith. Which means the equation: Faith = Salvation + Works not the traditional Catholic teaching of Faith + Works = Salvation.
So who is right? The Catholic Church and the tradition that it developed or the original Scriptures?
I do not mean to offend anyone I just want to challenge what you believe in, and see if it is what the Scriptures say
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YuRa
Guest
LutheranStudent-
I believe in Sola Scriptura.
I believe in Sola Scriptura.
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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
That is not what Catholic believe so first look on actual Church teaching you can easily find it on this site.Then you can rely on actual teaching and not anti-catholic mythology.God Bless
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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
Dear Lutheran student I know what scripture says and thankyou for your post
I was attempting to get to the core of the question with YuRa
YuRa was posing a general bait,I wanted a specific example.God Bless
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adnauseum
Guest
One could argue that these passages warn that the Church is required to protect the teaching of Christ from corruption.
Cardinal John Henry Newman [a former protestant who converted to Catholicism] argued that the teaching authority of the Church is absolutely necessary for the preservation of doctrine, preventing the addition or subtraction of the gospel.
In this context, one could argue that protestants, by failing to protect the teaching of Christ from corruption by a formal teaching authority, are in violation of the scriptures you cited.
Of course I am not an authority on scripture, and I entrust its correct meaning to the teaching office of the Catholic Church. The LAST thing we need is for everyone’s interpretation to be considered authoritative.
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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
Very interesting,Both Evangelical and Lutheran believe in sola scriptura yet …?What happened?God Bless
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Beaver
Guest
Let’s define the terms. Faith is a knowledge in the trustworthiness of the messanger. Salvation is a gift of grace. Works are the giving of this grace to another. You can not hoard grace. When you are a channel of grace you are serving God.
Thanks and God Bless
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Pax
Guest
YuRa,
There is no contradiction between scripture and Catholic teaching on how we are saved. If there is a contradiction between scripture and tradition on how we are saved, it is in non-Catholic circles.
Catholics believe that it is proper to say, by what scripture teaches, that we are saved by grace alone, through the merits of Jesus Christ, by faith and works but not by faith alone. Please notice that Catholic teaching disagrees with non-catholic statements that say that we are saved by faith alone. Scripture agrees with Catholic teaching as seen in James 2:24 where the apostle tells us “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” This fits inside our definition but it does not fit inside non-Catholic teaching and tradition. The apostle James and the apostle Paul agree on this issue. Unfortuntately, non-Catholic tradition misreads Paul and ignores many of the passages in Paul’s writings that make this clear.
The relationship between faith and works is intextricably interwoven. You do not have one without the other. The epistle of James helps make this clear. In fact James compares faith and works to the body and spirit. James says in verse 2:26, “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.” Please carefully exam the analogy used by the apostle. As long as the human body is animated by the spirit it is alive, but when the body and spirit are separated the human body is dead. This is the relationship of faith and works. You might also want to consider the fact that the epistle of James follows the epistles of Paul. You might also notice that in Peter 3:15-16 it says, “So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.”
Neither James or Peter wrote what they did just for the fun of it. These are serious statements that help us to be more cautious and circumspect in reading the letters of Paul. Paul’s writings are extremely important but they have been misunderstood on the issue of justification and only the Catholic Church’s teachings fully comply with scripture in this regard.
You can read some of the debate on this issue on several threads found on these forums. I can supply you with at least 30 or 40 verses that make it clear that we are not saved by faith alone.
I hope this helps.
There is no contradiction between scripture and Catholic teaching on how we are saved. If there is a contradiction between scripture and tradition on how we are saved, it is in non-Catholic circles.
Catholics believe that it is proper to say, by what scripture teaches, that we are saved by grace alone, through the merits of Jesus Christ, by faith and works but not by faith alone. Please notice that Catholic teaching disagrees with non-catholic statements that say that we are saved by faith alone. Scripture agrees with Catholic teaching as seen in James 2:24 where the apostle tells us “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” This fits inside our definition but it does not fit inside non-Catholic teaching and tradition. The apostle James and the apostle Paul agree on this issue. Unfortuntately, non-Catholic tradition misreads Paul and ignores many of the passages in Paul’s writings that make this clear.
The relationship between faith and works is intextricably interwoven. You do not have one without the other. The epistle of James helps make this clear. In fact James compares faith and works to the body and spirit. James says in verse 2:26, “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.” Please carefully exam the analogy used by the apostle. As long as the human body is animated by the spirit it is alive, but when the body and spirit are separated the human body is dead. This is the relationship of faith and works. You might also want to consider the fact that the epistle of James follows the epistles of Paul. You might also notice that in Peter 3:15-16 it says, “So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.”
Neither James or Peter wrote what they did just for the fun of it. These are serious statements that help us to be more cautious and circumspect in reading the letters of Paul. Paul’s writings are extremely important but they have been misunderstood on the issue of justification and only the Catholic Church’s teachings fully comply with scripture in this regard.
You can read some of the debate on this issue on several threads found on these forums. I can supply you with at least 30 or 40 verses that make it clear that we are not saved by faith alone.
I hope this helps.
L
LutheranStudent
Guest
Dear Lisa4Catholics,Very interesting,Both Evangelical and Lutheran believe in sola scriptura yet …?What happened?God Bless
For lack of time, I would refer you to my profile, and check out my blogs entitled “Sola Scriptura I, II & III.” I spent over an hour on them and I hope they are clear in defending Luther’s famous phrase.
As for my Reformed friend, YuRa, we have a connection that is not shared by most Catholics - we rest assured of our salvation. This is not because we are in total agreement with each other, (esp. regarding the Lord’s Supper,) but because we both rely soley and completely on the merits of Christ for our salvation. God bless your battle against work righteousness, YuRa, and keep up the good work.
~Lutheran Student
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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
Without Christ there is no salvation
Try again,and attempt to look up Catholic teaching before you pull out straw men.Your total agreement seems to be a misrepresentation on what Catholics believe about salvation.God Bless
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YuRa
Guest
Thank you.
Now:
Then we have a Cathlic who tells me:
Now how is that not contradictory?
Furthermore:
The teachings of Christ were you are saved by faith for good works. So I do not see how Protestants are corrupting the teachings.
So what ever the Catholic Church says goes? Whatever meaning they give Scripture?
Umm… if you do not believe that Scripture alone is authority and man can change the meaning of it, and actually do change it, it says you will be plagued.
Next let me comment on Pax post…
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YuRa
Guest
Now Pax:
If said:
The Bible teaches that we are saved by faith, and as a result of the faith we will have works. Meaning that faith without works is dead, not in the sense that faith + works save but that faith saves but as a result of you salvation and faith you will do works. The dead faith that James was talking about was the faith that the demons had. The demons believed Christ died and resurrected, they knew he did. They knew who He was every time He would cast them out. But they did not believe in Him as Savior, but just as a historical figure. Meaning there faith was dead.
So here is the whole process:
We receive faith as a gift of God through His grace, when we receive faith Christ’s righteousness is imputed on us, the Holy Spirit goes in us, and we do works as a fruit of our faith. All that happens when a person believes in Christ as there Savior.
Any objections of course?
If said:
I would like to see 5 solid verses that say, faith is not sufficient for salvation.
The Bible teaches that we are saved by faith, and as a result of the faith we will have works. Meaning that faith without works is dead, not in the sense that faith + works save but that faith saves but as a result of you salvation and faith you will do works. The dead faith that James was talking about was the faith that the demons had. The demons believed Christ died and resurrected, they knew he did. They knew who He was every time He would cast them out. But they did not believe in Him as Savior, but just as a historical figure. Meaning there faith was dead.
So here is the whole process:
We receive faith as a gift of God through His grace, when we receive faith Christ’s righteousness is imputed on us, the Holy Spirit goes in us, and we do works as a fruit of our faith. All that happens when a person believes in Christ as there Savior.
Any objections of course?
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YuRa
Guest
I was talking about traditional Catholicism. That did say Faith + Works = Salvation. But if the church finally accepted the Biblical truth of Faith = Salvation + Works then God bless them, because they have come to know the real Gospel as Paul said.
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Beaver
Guest
Let’s define the terms. Faith is a knowledge in the trustworthiness of the messenger. Salvation is a gift of grace. Works are the giving of this grace to another. You can not hoard grace. When you are a channel of grace you are serving God.
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YuRa
Guest
So Beaver me and you agree then?
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