G
geezerbob
Guest
Please read Matthew 25, beginning at verse 31, and tell us what Jesus said about works, not what you interpret Paul to have said. Thanks.
- Status
B
Beaver
Guest
YesMy questions are: Is Scripture alone the absolute we should follow when accepting or rejecting doctrines? No
YuRa:
Should tradition play a role in the doctrines we support?
P
Pax
Guest
You have a huge problem here. Scripture says nothing about the demons looking upon Jesus as merely a historical figure. They sinfully rejected God and His divine plan from the get go.The Bible teaches that we are saved by faith, and as a result of the faith we will have works. Meaning that faith without works is dead, not in the sense that faith + works save but that faith saves but as a result of you salvation and faith you will do works. The dead faith that James was talking about was the faith that the demons had. ]
You are only partly right. James speaks of the demons in terms of mental assent. They know who God is and they know who Jesus is. There problem is that they totally reject God even though they know who God is. When we have no works or when we sin against God, we are in a way rejecting God. We are placing ourselves and our desires over God. This is where the “similarity” exists. James also says in verse 20, “Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?” Some translations use a different word then “shallow.” Some translations say, “vain”, “fool”. “empty person”, or even “idle boaster.” Your statements and denials of the clear intent of James is eisegesis and not exegesis. This scripture is extremely clear and it for this reason that Martin Luther wanted to remove the book of James from the bible. He even had the nerve to say that it was an “epistle of straw.” Morevover, he indicated that if he could have his way the epistle of James would be “thrown into the furnace.” This is from the man that invented salvation by faith alone and then wanted to eliminate the scripture that explicitly denies. it.
YuRa:
Y
YuRa
Guest
So Beaver,
So God is not smart enough I guess to write a book without fault. Man has to add and take away from it huh? I guess we must be smarter then the author. Like it is written in Rev let those who change add or take away be “plagued”
So God is not smart enough I guess to write a book without fault. Man has to add and take away from it huh? I guess we must be smarter then the author. Like it is written in Rev let those who change add or take away be “plagued”
B
Beaver
Guest
No, but you are not smart enough to understand it, less you think you are smarter than God.
What have I added or take away?
L
Lisa4Catholics
Guest
Scripture IS without fault individual interperatation on the other hand…
Satan quoted scripture to tempt Jesus,was scripture wrong?NO.But satan was wrong.
God Bless
Y
YuRa
Guest
Pax
The Scripture is clear; faith without works is dead. I totally 100% agree. The thing is works are a fruit of the Holy Spirit which we receive after we have faith. Do not forget why Abraham was righteous because he had faith not because he did something.
See this is a great example of how tradition can over power clear Biblical teaching.
So since the demons know who He is, does not not signify them knowing He exists? So they do believe in Him, they know who He is, but they reject Him as a savior. Therefore there faith is dead.
The Scripture is clear; faith without works is dead. I totally 100% agree. The thing is works are a fruit of the Holy Spirit which we receive after we have faith. Do not forget why Abraham was righteous because he had faith not because he did something.
See this is a great example of how tradition can over power clear Biblical teaching.
The man or being who “invented” faith alone was God. If we are saved by our merit then we have something to boast about, and that is why we are saved by faith alone.
So the demons did not think of Christ as a being that existed? The demons did not know Christ was eternal and will die on the cross for the sins of many? I mean seriously you make these accusations that are so opinionated and not Biblical or even logically based at that.
P
Pax
Guest
YuRa I would like to see 5 solid verses that say said:
Y
YuRa
Guest
I like this one… Obviously Scripture is hard to understand. But would God make the part about understanding how we are saved hard? So that no one get saved?
Tell me what you think about these next places:
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Or
Luke 7:50 And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
Or
Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit
Or
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
Or
Gal 3:6 ¶ Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
I do know about you, but I should hope that God would have written the Word so that people could understand how to get saved. Unless God wants to trick us.
So tell me how do you understand those verses? Are they not clear enough?
P
Pax
Guest
YuRa,
Here are some verses concerning the regenerative nature of baptism that would deny that we are saved by faith alone.
ACTS 2:38
And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
ACTS 22:16
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
JOHN 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
MARK 16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
ROMANS 6: 3-4
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
GALATIANS 3:27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
COLOSSIANS 2:11-12
In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
TITUS 3:4-8
but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,
1 PETER 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Now here are some other verses that would indicate that we are not saved by faith alone.
Matthew 7:21
“Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, **but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” **
Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.
Galatians: 5:19-26
Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,gentleness, self-control; against such there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us have no self-conceit, no provoking of one another, no envy of one another.
Romans: Chapter 2
For he will render to every man according to his works:
to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
1 Cor 13:2
And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
Now, I could go on and on but I think you get the picture. This is scripture. This is the Holy Word of God. It is clear that we are not saved by faith alone. Just ask yourself a simple question. Can a person be saved if they do not love God? The answer from scripture is a clear “No.” If you have to love God in order to be saved then you are not saved by faith alone.
Here are some verses concerning the regenerative nature of baptism that would deny that we are saved by faith alone.
ACTS 2:38
And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
ACTS 22:16
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
JOHN 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
MARK 16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
ROMANS 6: 3-4
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
GALATIANS 3:27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
COLOSSIANS 2:11-12
In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
TITUS 3:4-8
but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,
1 PETER 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Now here are some other verses that would indicate that we are not saved by faith alone.
Matthew 7:21
“Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, **but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” **
Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.
Galatians: 5:19-26
Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,gentleness, self-control; against such there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us have no self-conceit, no provoking of one another, no envy of one another.
Romans: Chapter 2
For he will render to every man according to his works:
to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
1 Cor 13:2
And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
Now, I could go on and on but I think you get the picture. This is scripture. This is the Holy Word of God. It is clear that we are not saved by faith alone. Just ask yourself a simple question. Can a person be saved if they do not love God? The answer from scripture is a clear “No.” If you have to love God in order to be saved then you are not saved by faith alone.
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YuRa
Guest
Ok Pax
Your statement began good we are saved by the grace of God, so now you go on and say that we keep our salvation by works… At least that’s how I understood it. So wait the Bible teaches we get our salvation through faith and now we have to keep it with works? Lol interesting theory, but does not hold any biblical truth.
And nothing you said go against the fact that we are saved by faith. Look at James, I am just amazed at how you understand it, does James say “you are saved by faith and works”? instead he says “faith without works is dead” comparing it to the demons. It is ridiculous to get Faith + works = salvation out of that. More like true faith will result in works.
If those are the kind of places that you say “support” salvation by faith and merit; then boy are you fooling yourself. That is probably the best verse you can come up with and it goes against what you believe in. Amazing, tradition overruling clear Scripture, and blinding people from the truth.
Your statement began good we are saved by the grace of God, so now you go on and say that we keep our salvation by works… At least that’s how I understood it. So wait the Bible teaches we get our salvation through faith and now we have to keep it with works? Lol interesting theory, but does not hold any biblical truth.
And nothing you said go against the fact that we are saved by faith. Look at James, I am just amazed at how you understand it, does James say “you are saved by faith and works”? instead he says “faith without works is dead” comparing it to the demons. It is ridiculous to get Faith + works = salvation out of that. More like true faith will result in works.
If those are the kind of places that you say “support” salvation by faith and merit; then boy are you fooling yourself. That is probably the best verse you can come up with and it goes against what you believe in. Amazing, tradition overruling clear Scripture, and blinding people from the truth.
P
Pax
Guest
What you do not understand is that everything is by grace including our good works. As born again children of God our works are nothing less than the work of the fathers hands in our hearts, minds, souls, and bodies. You only have half the picture of grace and faith. Put it all together and you will have the fullness of truth.
Unfortunately for many, salvation and how it is given to us is not apparently very obvious. Consider the many different modes of thought in non-Catholic Christianity on this matter. It boggles the mind.
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Pax
Guest
Nice try but you simply do not understand scripture and you have not provided a refutation of anything I said. Why don’t you try reading all of my posts over again. They are quite clear and scriptural. We are not saved by faith alone and scripture says so. We are instead saved by grace alone. Consider this last phrase and all of its ramifications as I have “outlined” them.
I would like to continue this but I have got some other things to do. I’ll be back!
C
Church_Militant
Guest
This topic is a dead horse that has long since been beat to bits. Before we waste more time with rehashing the same old arguments with people who have no real interest in the truth, I suggest that you do a search on this site to see what Catholics really believe.
This forum is not here to provide a platform for non-Catholic evangelism, any more than Non-Catholic forums are there for us to evangelize them. (Something you will find that we do not do!) I suggest that you check out the rules of this forum before you attempt to further evangelize us.
All of us will happily discuss and explain our faith to anyone who is interested, but we ask you to be honest and if all you want is a field for your evangelism, try some other forums.
http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/AN878.gif
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YuRa
Guest
Wow, let us look at those places you sited and see how they hold up to your beliefs.
ACTS 2:38
And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Peters call to repentance then to baptism and do it all in the name of Christ and you will be forgiven. Now is that statement false? Will they not be forgiven? It does not say you are saved by baptism and repentance but says to do it all in the name of Jesus. If you do all that you will be forgiven and will receive the Holy Spirit. He never says that’s how you are saved like in Eph 2:8 and Titus 3:5
ACTS 22:16
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
Look again at the call. Go get up and be baptized and wash you sins away calling on His name. Its pretty clear, and you make it out to be that by the act of baptism we are forgiven.
JOHN 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Now look closely is that statement false? Of course not, then why was the criminal that hung next to Christ saved? Did he get baptized? And if you are a believer why wouldn’t you get baptized if you had the time?
MARK 16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
See this is a great example of how you interpret the Bible. Read the whole verse, but he who does not believe will be condemned. Again was the Criminal next to Christ on the cross saved? Again if you have time, every believer will get baptized.
ACTS 2:38
And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Peters call to repentance then to baptism and do it all in the name of Christ and you will be forgiven. Now is that statement false? Will they not be forgiven? It does not say you are saved by baptism and repentance but says to do it all in the name of Jesus. If you do all that you will be forgiven and will receive the Holy Spirit. He never says that’s how you are saved like in Eph 2:8 and Titus 3:5
ACTS 22:16
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
Look again at the call. Go get up and be baptized and wash you sins away calling on His name. Its pretty clear, and you make it out to be that by the act of baptism we are forgiven.
JOHN 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Now look closely is that statement false? Of course not, then why was the criminal that hung next to Christ saved? Did he get baptized? And if you are a believer why wouldn’t you get baptized if you had the time?
MARK 16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
See this is a great example of how you interpret the Bible. Read the whole verse, but he who does not believe will be condemned. Again was the Criminal next to Christ on the cross saved? Again if you have time, every believer will get baptized.
Y
YuRa
Guest
ROMANS 6: 3-4
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
Now why did you even post this verse? That’s talking about how we die with Christ in baptism its symbolic. No where does it say merit is necessary for righteousness.
GALATIANS 3:27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
I like this one, lol so misunderstood. Putting on Christ means His righteousness. So if you put on Christ they you were also baptized is basically what Paul said. No merit for righteousness just those who got baptized also had Christ’s righteousness.
COLOSSIANS 2:11-12
In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
Talking about Christ righteousness being imputed onto us… where is the talk of a merit with faith for salvation?
TITUS 3:4-8
but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,
I should have used this one, God saves not man. We do nothing because it is not because of deeds done by us in righteousness. When we are in righteousness meaning Christ’s righteousness are already saved apart from the deeds we do.
1 PETER 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Lol this verse proves again how misinterpretation brings merit into salvation. Read the verses before this one see how clear it is. Peter is talking about how we die with Christ and that is how it saves us. Because our sins were nailed on the cross, not our actual act of baptism saves us.
I think that handles the baptism verses. The whole outcome of them all is that if we have time get baptized because it’s a fruit of you faith. The criminal next to Christ was saved without baptism, and do not say that’s an exception because then we all have the opportunity to it.
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
Now why did you even post this verse? That’s talking about how we die with Christ in baptism its symbolic. No where does it say merit is necessary for righteousness.
GALATIANS 3:27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
I like this one, lol so misunderstood. Putting on Christ means His righteousness. So if you put on Christ they you were also baptized is basically what Paul said. No merit for righteousness just those who got baptized also had Christ’s righteousness.
COLOSSIANS 2:11-12
In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
Talking about Christ righteousness being imputed onto us… where is the talk of a merit with faith for salvation?
TITUS 3:4-8
but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,
I should have used this one, God saves not man. We do nothing because it is not because of deeds done by us in righteousness. When we are in righteousness meaning Christ’s righteousness are already saved apart from the deeds we do.
1 PETER 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Lol this verse proves again how misinterpretation brings merit into salvation. Read the verses before this one see how clear it is. Peter is talking about how we die with Christ and that is how it saves us. Because our sins were nailed on the cross, not our actual act of baptism saves us.
I think that handles the baptism verses. The whole outcome of them all is that if we have time get baptized because it’s a fruit of you faith. The criminal next to Christ was saved without baptism, and do not say that’s an exception because then we all have the opportunity to it.
Y
YuRa
Guest
Matthew 7:21
“Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”
This one kills me, what is the will of the father? To have faith and be credited righteousness. That proves faith alone wrong? lol
Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.
What is faith working through love? If you have faith in Christ as your personal savior will you not love him? The love is talking about Gods love not yours. Again this verse that “proves” faith + works, is misinterpreted.
Galatians: 5:19-26
Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,gentleness, self-control; against such there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us have no self-conceit, no provoking of one another, no envy of one another.
This is just so interesting how so far all the verses that “prove” faith + works actually disprove it. Read the thing carefully again remembering what was written before. The Spirit bares was fruits? And the flesh the other. So if you are not in the Spirit, meaning if you do not have the Holy Spirit as a result of not having faith, then you will not inherit the kingdom of God. All you verses just prove my case.
Romans: Chapter 2
For he will render to every man according to his works:
to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
Wow Romans 2 just proves Faith = salvation + works even more. Look who will not get the eternal life… it’s the wicked. The ones who will inherit eternal life are the ones that do works. It does not say because they do works but they do works therefore will inherit. But why do we do works? As a fruirt of the Holy Spirit inside us obtained by Faith in Christ. How clear is it? We do not do works to earn salvation we do it because we have salvation.
1 Cor 13:2
And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
This last one is amusing. What is the love that is talked about? If you don’t have love you have nothing, what’s the love? Where does it come from? Is it not a fruit of the Holy Spirit which comes through faith? Meaning that if you do not have love you will not have faith. Do you see faith without works is dead. Meaning the faith is just fake, you believe Christ existed but you do not believe he paid the debt on the cross.
None of the verses you brought up contradict Faith = Works + Salvation. They just all the more prove it. You are left with nothing. Those are the best places you could think of and they equate to a failed argument.
“Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”
This one kills me, what is the will of the father? To have faith and be credited righteousness. That proves faith alone wrong? lol
Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.
What is faith working through love? If you have faith in Christ as your personal savior will you not love him? The love is talking about Gods love not yours. Again this verse that “proves” faith + works, is misinterpreted.
Galatians: 5:19-26
Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,gentleness, self-control; against such there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us have no self-conceit, no provoking of one another, no envy of one another.
This is just so interesting how so far all the verses that “prove” faith + works actually disprove it. Read the thing carefully again remembering what was written before. The Spirit bares was fruits? And the flesh the other. So if you are not in the Spirit, meaning if you do not have the Holy Spirit as a result of not having faith, then you will not inherit the kingdom of God. All you verses just prove my case.
Romans: Chapter 2
For he will render to every man according to his works:
to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
Wow Romans 2 just proves Faith = salvation + works even more. Look who will not get the eternal life… it’s the wicked. The ones who will inherit eternal life are the ones that do works. It does not say because they do works but they do works therefore will inherit. But why do we do works? As a fruirt of the Holy Spirit inside us obtained by Faith in Christ. How clear is it? We do not do works to earn salvation we do it because we have salvation.
1 Cor 13:2
And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
This last one is amusing. What is the love that is talked about? If you don’t have love you have nothing, what’s the love? Where does it come from? Is it not a fruit of the Holy Spirit which comes through faith? Meaning that if you do not have love you will not have faith. Do you see faith without works is dead. Meaning the faith is just fake, you believe Christ existed but you do not believe he paid the debt on the cross.
None of the verses you brought up contradict Faith = Works + Salvation. They just all the more prove it. You are left with nothing. Those are the best places you could think of and they equate to a failed argument.
N
Nun_ofthe_Above
Guest
As a non baptized believer of the Holy trinity, raised in the Anglican faith, I can appreciate where non
Catholics are coming from; however, as a Catholic-in-Training, I now appreciate the Catholic position
better.
The following is meant in the spirit of Christian charity, therefore I mean no disrespect to any party.
In James 2:21-24 it says-:
2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?2:22 Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect?2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God.2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?From this, it is clearly stating that ‘faith did cooperate with his works’ (i.e. Faith + Works) and Abraham was ‘justified’ or put right with God. (i.e.obtained Salvation)
So in a nutshell, it is stating that Faith + Works = Salvation.
A parent can love their child unconditionally, yet still not like their behaviour at times; the same can be said of God and His love for us. We are to honour our parents, and earn their respect, and the same goes for God. We can issue platitudes till the cows come home and say how we love Him etc, but if we say or do anything which contradicts His teachings, then we may have Faith, but we don’t have works, and as they say, faith without works is dead, (i.e.Faith - Works = Death); therefore, Salvation would be in serious doubt, unless some major changes were made.
May we all have the strength of (Faith) to allow us to take up our Cross and follow the Lord, denying our earthly desires and failings, (Works) to hopefully become worthy of the sacrifice made by our Lord that we may be brought into His presence.(Salvation)
Peace be with you all
Catholics are coming from; however, as a Catholic-in-Training, I now appreciate the Catholic position
better.
The following is meant in the spirit of Christian charity, therefore I mean no disrespect to any party.
In James 2:21-24 it says-:
2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?2:22 Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect?2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God.2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?From this, it is clearly stating that ‘faith did cooperate with his works’ (i.e. Faith + Works) and Abraham was ‘justified’ or put right with God. (i.e.obtained Salvation)
So in a nutshell, it is stating that Faith + Works = Salvation.
A parent can love their child unconditionally, yet still not like their behaviour at times; the same can be said of God and His love for us. We are to honour our parents, and earn their respect, and the same goes for God. We can issue platitudes till the cows come home and say how we love Him etc, but if we say or do anything which contradicts His teachings, then we may have Faith, but we don’t have works, and as they say, faith without works is dead, (i.e.Faith - Works = Death); therefore, Salvation would be in serious doubt, unless some major changes were made.
May we all have the strength of (Faith) to allow us to take up our Cross and follow the Lord, denying our earthly desires and failings, (Works) to hopefully become worthy of the sacrifice made by our Lord that we may be brought into His presence.(Salvation)
Peace be with you all
Y
YuRa
Guest
Why would it be written that we are saved apart from deeds so no one boasts and then somewhere else it would be written that you are saved by deeds? It does not make sense; the Bible does not contradict itself.
If by my own doing I can get into Heaven then I do not want to be there, because how great is it if a sinful man like me can earn his spot there.
Salvation is by the grace (free, undeserving, priceless gift) of God in which He regenerates us then gives us faith, and because of our faith God credits Christ’s righteousness onto us, also giving us the Holy Spirit from which we will have fruit, which is our works. But we ourselves do nothing to earn Gods grace and nothing to keep it. Because if we do something, we can boast and take glory for ourselves. Soli Deo Gloria!
Why would Christ need to die if we could just earn our salvation with our filthy righteousness? He died in vain then and did not accomplish what He came to do (to die for the sins of many).
You are right Church Militant this debate has gone on for a long time. One side always manages to use the Scriptures to show how they are right and the other side just holds on to the traditions of there fathers who have no authority compared to the clear teachings of the Bible. Some day it will end, when He calls those that relied on Him for salvation not the ones that relied on there own merit or righteousness. God bless you all in your search for truth.
Yura
If by my own doing I can get into Heaven then I do not want to be there, because how great is it if a sinful man like me can earn his spot there.
Salvation is by the grace (free, undeserving, priceless gift) of God in which He regenerates us then gives us faith, and because of our faith God credits Christ’s righteousness onto us, also giving us the Holy Spirit from which we will have fruit, which is our works. But we ourselves do nothing to earn Gods grace and nothing to keep it. Because if we do something, we can boast and take glory for ourselves. Soli Deo Gloria!
Why would Christ need to die if we could just earn our salvation with our filthy righteousness? He died in vain then and did not accomplish what He came to do (to die for the sins of many).
You are right Church Militant this debate has gone on for a long time. One side always manages to use the Scriptures to show how they are right and the other side just holds on to the traditions of there fathers who have no authority compared to the clear teachings of the Bible. Some day it will end, when He calls those that relied on Him for salvation not the ones that relied on there own merit or righteousness. God bless you all in your search for truth.
Yura
Y
YuRa
Guest
Nun_ofthe_above:
Let us look at James chapter 2, and why James wrote it. Throughout the chapter he is talking about faith and its relationship with works. Let’s read the whole chapter and see what statement it supports.
Which statement is James repeating over and over again:
James 2:2 For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes,
James 2:3 and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing the fine clothes, and say, “You sit here in a good place,” and you say to the poor man, “You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool,”
James 2:4 have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil motives?
James talks about how we judge a man by his appearance as in the works he does.
James 2:5 Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world {to be} rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?
James 2:6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court?
James 2:7 Do they not blaspheme the fair name by which you have been called?
Basically be careful who you judge.
James 2:8 ¶ If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,” you are doing well.
James 2:9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin {and} are convicted by the law as transgressors.
Now I ask all of you: Do you love everyone in the world right now as yourselves? If not you have sinned and are separated from God. That’s what James is implying, that we all have sinned that sin. Then He says we are guilty of breaking the whole law:
James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one {point,} he has become guilty of all.
James 2:11 For He who said, “DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,” also said, “DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
James 2:12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by {the} law of liberty.
James 2:13 For judgment {will be} merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
Then James mentions how when we sin once or even original imputed sin from Adam we are guilty of breaking the whole law. That’s because we become slaves to sin and are dead in sin. Then James goes into the juicy stuff:
Let us look at James chapter 2, and why James wrote it. Throughout the chapter he is talking about faith and its relationship with works. Let’s read the whole chapter and see what statement it supports.
Which statement is James repeating over and over again:
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Code:
Faith with the combination or works will result in Salvation. -
Code:
Faith results in Salvation and produces fruit without fail.
James 2:2 For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes,
James 2:3 and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing the fine clothes, and say, “You sit here in a good place,” and you say to the poor man, “You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool,”
James 2:4 have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil motives?
James talks about how we judge a man by his appearance as in the works he does.
James 2:5 Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world {to be} rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?
James 2:6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court?
James 2:7 Do they not blaspheme the fair name by which you have been called?
Basically be careful who you judge.
James 2:8 ¶ If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,” you are doing well.
James 2:9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin {and} are convicted by the law as transgressors.
Now I ask all of you: Do you love everyone in the world right now as yourselves? If not you have sinned and are separated from God. That’s what James is implying, that we all have sinned that sin. Then He says we are guilty of breaking the whole law:
James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one {point,} he has become guilty of all.
James 2:11 For He who said, “DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,” also said, “DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
James 2:12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by {the} law of liberty.
James 2:13 For judgment {will be} merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
Then James mentions how when we sin once or even original imputed sin from Adam we are guilty of breaking the whole law. That’s because we become slaves to sin and are dead in sin. Then James goes into the juicy stuff:
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