Scripture… is it sufficient

[YuRa]

He could not be baptized but he desired to do God’s will and for him in his circumstances that was sufficient.

The thief’s will to do good was not sufficient his faith was. Also if there was an exception like the thief, then what prohibits it from happening again and again? See the thief destroys your whole argument.

I do believe all Christians should get baptized because God tells us to do it, not because we are saved by the act of it, it is symbolic to the Cross which does save us.

 

[john_ennis]

YuRa:

As LutheranStudent has already mentioned:

Galations 1:8, Deuteronomy 4:2, Revelation 22:18 all say not to change the gospel or the word of God.

Different canons were created because different people did not agree if certain books were actual God breathe. No words of God were changed. And the early church had creeds to remember the teaching of the apostles and Christ.

Do you not understand yet, that when we add to Gods word we make ourselves to be gods, by adding or changing we act as gods and we think that the original writer was not smart enough to write it the correct way the first time.

Just because some man said something does not make him right, unless God speaks through a man I will never believe what he says. The fathers traditions of the Word means nothing to me if they go against the original writers said and meant.

Oh canon is all God breathe, it is infallible, mans word is what is fallible. Mans words means nothing if they are not backed up by an absolute.

Then you are acknowledging that, say, Revelation may not be Scriptural, since it has been proclaimed so by man’s word?
And do you see the inconsistency in your “absolutes”? It was okay for tradition (those creeds of the early Church) to be followed for the first three or four hundred years, but not now?

If it became clear to you that the idea of Sola Scriptura was not followed by Christians until the fifteenth century, would you still follow it? That is the case, you know.

You must be quite confident that your interpretation of Scripture is infallible, if even a consensus of the earliest Christians will do nothing to suggest to you that maybe their belief was the true Apostolic teaching.

Oh, almost forgot to say–when we talk of “adding” to the Word, the reason I don’t think the Church does and you do think so, is because you use the Word to mean Scripture and only Scripture. The Catholic Church has always held the Word (meaning the entire deposit of the faith of the Apostles) to be contained by totally by Scripture and Sacred Tradition (church teachings handed down) together. That’s why when you cite verses about adding to/changing the Word, they don’t make us wrong in our eyes.
max peace,
John

 

[YuRa]

I see that it is no use arguing with the common day Catholic. You rely on your own righteousness to get you into Heaven. You believe your deeds surpass the deeds credited to you when you receive Christ’s righteousness by faith. Paul calls it a false gospel that isn’t a gospel at all. That was his whole letter to the Eph.

I know now my blunt statement will get deleted as well as my account, but the word of God will never see decay! It is clear faith alone saves without any effort of man, everything else derives from faith including works. I hope God will bless you and you will except the gospel and also have a place in eternity. Until then you are damned to the eternal flames of Hell.

Sola gratia, sola Christo, sola fide, and sola Scriptura equals Soli Deo Gloria!

By grace alone through Christ alone by faith alone, and also Scripture alone as authority will equal all the Glory to Him alone! God fulfils His purpose for the vessels of mercy and the vessels of destruction without fail. May you be a vessel of mercy and except His sacrifice on the cross and through faith alone be saved.

God bless you all.

 

[john_ennis]

YuRa:

I see that it is no use arguing with the common day Catholic. You rely on your own righteousness to get you into Heaven. You believe your deeds surpass the deeds credited to you when you receive Christ’s righteousness by faith. Paul calls it a false gospel that isn’t a gospel at all. That was his whole letter to the Eph.

I know now my blunt statement will get deleted as well as my account, but the word of God will never see decay! It is clear faith alone saves without any effort of man, everything else derives from faith including works. I hope God will bless you and you will except the gospel and also have a place in eternity. Until then you are damned to the eternal flames of Hell.

Sola gratia, sola Christo, sola fide, and sola Scriptura equals Soli Deo Gloria!

By grace alone through Christ alone by faith alone, and also Scripture alone as authority will equal all the Glory to Him alone! God fulfils His purpose for the vessels of mercy and the vessels of destruction without fail. May you be a vessel of mercy and except His sacrifice on the cross and through faith alone be saved.

God bless you all.

Faith alone.

I wish.

Thanks a lot, Martin.

But peace.
John

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

YuRa:

I see that it is no use arguing with the common day Catholic. You rely on your own righteousness to get you into Heaven. You believe your deeds surpass the deeds credited to you when you receive Christ’s righteousness by faith. Paul calls it a false gospel that isn’t a gospel at all. That was his whole letter to the Eph.

I know now my blunt statement will get deleted as well as my account, but the word of God will never see decay! It is clear faith alone saves without any effort of man, everything else derives from faith including works. I hope God will bless you and you will except the gospel and also have a place in eternity. Until then you are damned to the eternal flames of Hell.

Sola gratia, sola Christo, sola fide, and sola Scriptura equals Soli Deo Gloria!

By grace alone through Christ alone by faith alone, and also Scripture alone as authority will equal all the Glory to Him alone! God fulfils His purpose for the vessels of mercy and the vessels of destruction without fail. May you be a vessel of mercy and except His sacrifice on the cross and through faith alone be saved.

God bless you all.

I see that you have not listened to a word anyone here has said! Like I said your anti-catholic bias has blinded you against hearing anything anybody has said Catholic beliefs are scriptural period.You can and are free to pick and choose scriptures to try to back up your own INTERPRETATION of scripture but when you do you throw out the rest.Catholics have the fulness of faith and I am not apologetic in saying that.While your damning folks to hell,it would be wise to remember JUDGE NOT LEST THEE BE JUDGED!God Bless

 

[QuicumqueVult]

The Catholic Church canonized Scripture. Those who decided which books belonged were Catholic bishops.

R.C. Sproul, a Reformed theologian, says the canon of Scripture is a fallible list of infallible books. I’d rather opt for an infallible Church because the alternative is no authority. Protestants have no grounds for denying that the Bible is incomplete or has spurious books. Like Luther claimed about James: an epistle of straw.

Sola Scriptura is logically self-defeating. You can’t have Scripture without a Church to authorize it. A canon is a rule and the rule is only as legitimate as the rule-maker. The rule-maker is the Catholic Church.

 

[JCPhoenix]

YuRa:

I see that it is no use arguing with the common day Catholic. You rely on your own righteousness to get you into Heaven. You believe your deeds surpass the deeds credited to you when you receive Christ’s righteousness by faith. Paul calls it a false gospel that isn’t a gospel at all. That was his whole letter to the Eph.

I know now my blunt statement will get deleted as well as my account, but the word of God will never see decay! It is clear faith alone saves without any effort of man, everything else derives from faith including works. I hope God will bless you and you will except the gospel and also have a place in eternity. Until then you are damned to the eternal flames of Hell.

Sola gratia, sola Christo, sola fide, and sola Scriptura equals Soli Deo Gloria!

By grace alone through Christ alone by faith alone, and also Scripture alone as authority will equal all the Glory to Him alone! God fulfils His purpose for the vessels of mercy and the vessels of destruction without fail. May you be a vessel of mercy and except His sacrifice on the cross and through faith alone be saved.

God bless you all.

Exactly HOW MANY threads are you going to post this straw man in? You are not here searching for any truth, and I and I’m guessing others have already reported this fact.

You have been played, my friend. You think you can come here and by judging us to Hell find salvation?

I will pray for you and those of your ilk, for you cannot see beyone your own hate and venom.

I pray that God is more merciful to you than you are in judging we the followers of a faith you don’t even remotely try to understand.

Yes, please do move on, but if in fact you choose to really seek the truth, please return and we will welcome you with open arms and the very Word of God to soothe your troubled soul.

God Bless and Keep you, and may Christ forever be with you,

JCP

 

[CARose]

YuRa posted his final post on 13 different threads, including many on which he’d never previously posted. I think we frustrated the poor guy.

He came to wake up the poor, misinformed Catholics and found we weren’t so easily persuaded by his eloquent arguments, as though we hadn’t heard them all a thousand times before!

Let’s all pray for him and all his brethren who labor under the mistaken impression that we don’t know the bible and are an ignorant group of folk who define tradition as “the passing down of something developed over time”. I’m sorry he see’s each of our corrections of his misunderstandings as a personal affront. Truly, we seek to help him understand where we’re coming from and I believe each of us has read his posts with a willingness to understand his position.

However, a willingness to understand him doesn’t necessarily mean we agree with him when we hear what he’s trying to say. And agreeing to disagree doesn’t mean we agree both positions taken are correct.

Let’s keep him in our prayers.

CARose

 

[Beaver]

YuRa:

I find this insulting, because I do know what tradition is. It’s the passing down of something that is developed over time, and if tradition changes one word of the Bible it is heresy. Unless Christ or the apostles taught it I will never believe it. The Scriptures are the only Absolute that we have when it comes to our beliefs. Our traditions should never become as equals with Scripture. Instead our traditions should be taken out of the Scriptures.

Tradition is not an absolute; Scripture is. Gods’ words overrule any words of man.

Well then YuRa, I know not what your complaint is, unless you are referring to all the stupidly that comes out of some of our universities. These do not speak for the church and many are heretics. By the way the above definition is a genralization and not specific. Under this definition anything could be called a Tradition, Not so…

 

[Malachi4U]

YuRa:

My questions are: Is Scripture alone the absolute we should follow when accepting or rejecting doctrines?Catholics follow the Church Jesus established and gave His ‘keys’ to.

Should tradition play a role in the doctrines we support?

Well just study history and the answer is there. Jesus established His Church. The Catholic Church then gave us the Bible. So, the Bible came from Tradition! The Bible is just a part of that Tradition. Study history and learn the truth.

Bible alone! Never! God alone, YES!

 

[Pax]

YuRa:

The thief’s will to do good was not sufficient his faith was. Also if there was an exception like the thief, then what prohibits it from happening again and again? See the thief destroys your whole argument.

I do believe all Christians should get baptized because God tells us to do it, not because we are saved by the act of it, it is symbolic to the Cross which does save us.

You have mischaracterized what I said about the good thief and you fail to recognize the truth in the argument of baptism by desire. Think about this. No one denies the necessity of faith whether it be for the good thief or anyone else. Without grace and faith we cannot be lifted out of sin. What you fail to appreciate is the other half of what God’s grace does for us. Your “theory” and interpretation that we are saved by faith alone is directly contradicted by scripture. No matter how you slice it and spin it, you cannot get around James 2:24. Your statement that we are saved by “faith alone” is not congruent with this verse and the others I gave to you. You can’t get around all the verses given to you on baptism. Your efforts to do so are pure sophistry. Peter tells us " Baptism…now saves you,"[Peter 3:21]. This again directly contradicts your contention of “faith alone.” No matter how hard you try, you cannot honestly get around the simple truths of these verses or any of the others quoted to you.

 

[YuRa]

I apologize for my rude and blunt statements which I would like to be deleted because they were written out of anger. I will come back to the forum after I have studied what Catholics actually believe, and not stereotype. I understand a little more about your position now. When I come back it will be under a different name, and I will debate politely and not with anger. For now I need to know what I am up against. Please learn my position as well and were we derive our different doctrines (solo fide and so on). Thank you for your patience, and please follow my request to delete my posts and account.

Yura

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

YuRa:

I apologize for my rude and blunt statements which I would like to be deleted because they were written out of anger. I will come back to the forum after I have studied what Catholics actually believe, and not stereotype. I understand a little more about your position now. When I come back it will be under a different name, and I will debate politely and not with anger. For now I need to know what I am up against. Please learn my position as well and were we derive our different doctrines (solo fide and so on). Thank you for your patience, and please follow my request to delete my posts and account.

Yura

Your not up against anything,that is what causes you such anger YuRa,I am a former protestant so I know your possition and I also know your misconceptions and bias.That is why you shouldn’t feel like you have put a scarlet letter upon yourself.Do you realise how many former protestants felt the same way?God Bless You Nobody here hasn’t said things out of anger that you don’t mean, the Lord knew our nature that is why He died so that we can be forgiven:heart:

 

[oudave]

Lisa4Catholics:

St.Paul says we should follow both oral Tradition and written.If scripture alone was sufficient there would not be so many divisions.God Bless You and welcome to the forum

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

oudave:

Lisa4Catholics:

St.Paul says we should follow both oral Tradition and written.If scripture alone was sufficient there would not be so many divisions.God Bless You and welcome to the forum

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif

You have thrown away the authority to interperate scripture,you threw away oral tradition,therefore,the sola scriptura with out oral tradition and the authority which were given to the apostles and their succesors has gone in thousands of different directions.God Bless

 

[RobedWithLight]

oudave:

Lisa4Catholics:

St.Paul says we should follow both oral Tradition and written.If scripture alone was sufficient there would not be so many divisions.God Bless You and welcome to the forum

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif

The written word was written by men **inspired **by God, and a divinely-instituted Church was tasked to interpret it for us. Hence I would trust in the accumulated wisdom and teaching authority of the Church to interpret scripture for us, rather than trust my own fallible personal judgment.

Gerry

 

[Pax]

Dave,

Catholics also put all of their faith in God. In doing so we accept what Jesus did in establishing His Church. We believe all of His promises and the scriptures as they pertain to the Church. We believe the writings of the apostles. We believe it when we read in 2 Peter 1:20 that “First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,” We believe and follow scripture when it tells us in 2 Peter 3:15-17,
“And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability.”

We also believe scripture when it says in Matt 18:17-19 “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” There are other verses in scripture pertaining to the Church and its authority. We accept what Christ has given us for salvation in its entirety. Faith in Jesus involves believing all that He told us. He gave us more than scripture alone and while we can totally trust in God, we cannot trust ourselves. If you wonder where all of the varied and contradictory doctrines emerge from I can give you the answer. The errors come from people who claim sincerely, or in some cases insincerely, that their view comes directly from scripture by way of the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit was working in everyone as they read the bible for purposes of interpretation then everyone would be in complete agreement. The Holy Spirit is not at fault, but the Holy Spirit and scripture are being used as the justification for personal interpretation which is often filled with error. The Church is the antidote to this.

 

[john_ennis]

YuRa:

I apologize for my rude and blunt statements which I would like to be deleted because they were written out of anger. I will come back to the forum after I have studied what Catholics actually believe, and not stereotype. I understand a little more about your position now. When I come back it will be under a different name, and I will debate politely and not with anger. For now I need to know what I am up against. Please learn my position as well and were we derive our different doctrines (solo fide and so on). Thank you for your patience, and please follow my request to delete my posts and account.

Yura

'S okay. I didn’t get what hurt you till I saw what someone said of Luther in another thread. I’ve accidentally done that to my wife, giving my personal judgments about Martin Luther, which she took very personally. Such comments I’ve made have seldom been helpful.

Peace.
John

 

[oudave]

RobedWithLight:

The written word was written by men **inspired **by God, and a divinely-instituted Church was tasked to interpret it for us. Hence I would trust in the accumulated wisdom and teaching authority of the Church to interpret scripture for us, rather than trust my own fallible personal judgment.

Gerry

The problem is, they are fallible as well. That is why I pray to God to give me the wisdom to understand the scriptures. Here’s a question for you, when it comes to your salvation are you going to leave it up to sinful men to tell you what to believe, or God. The leaders of your church have already hidden the sexual abuse problems from the church as much as they could. You and I both know that it goes alot further than is being reported. There are even reports that the pope knew about what was going on. Can you honestly tell me that you are willing to entrust your salvation to anyone other than God. Of course the leaders of your church don’t want you thinking about the scriptures for yourself, you might start to question there teachings. Scripture talks about many false prophets and that we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.
In Him, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif

 

[oudave]

RobedWithLight:

The written word was written by men **inspired **by God, and a divinely-instituted Church was tasked to interpret it for us. Hence I would trust in the accumulated wisdom and teaching authority of the Church to interpret scripture for us, rather than trust my own fallible personal judgment.

Gerry

The problem is, they are fallible as well. That is why I pray to God to give me the wisdom to understand the scriptures. Here’s a question for you, when it comes to your salvation are you going to leave it up to sinful men to tell you what to believe, or God. The leaders of your church have already hidden the sexual abuse problems from the church as much as they could. You and I both know that it goes alot further than is being reported. There are even reports that the pope knew about what was going on. Can you honestly tell me that you are willing to entrust your salvation to anyone other than God. Of course the leaders of your church don’t want you thinking about the scriptures for yourself, you might start to question there teachings. Scripture talks about many false prophets and that we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.
In Him, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif