Scripture… is it sufficient

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oudave:
The problem is, they are fallible as well. That is why I pray to God to give me the wisdom to understand the scriptures. Here’s a question for you, when it comes to your salvation are you going to leave it up to sinful men to tell you what to believe, or God. The leaders of your church have already hidden the sexual abuse problems from the church as much as they could. You and I both know that it goes alot further than is being reported. There are even reports that the pope knew about what was going on. Can you honestly tell me that you are willing to entrust your salvation to anyone other than God. Of course the leaders of your church don’t want you thinking about the scriptures for yourself, you might start to question there teachings. Scripture talks about many false prophets and that we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.
In Him, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif
Oudave,I grew up in the same Church of Christ you did same teachings and guesswhat i know two sex scandals in our congregations involving minors.They were sent away by the elders!No charges either,so don’t pull out the scandal card !:tsktsk: The only difference is the media forces ignore largely non-catholic sex scandals,because they despise and misunderstand celibacy.The elders did the same thing as the Bishops did,but the elders didn’t make headlines.God Bless
 
Dave,

The problem with the sex scandals has nothing to do with infallibility. Sin is everywhere. Sinlessness would refer to impeccability. The Church does not claim this for the Pope or Bishops. It is very important to understand this difference and the implications of both.

The apostle, Peter, denied Christ three times. He was also publicly upbraided by one of his chief Cardinals/elder, Paul, for acting hypocritically in the presence of the Judaizers. Yet, Peter went on to write two infallible epistles which are accepted by all that accept the Christian bible. Peter was a sinner as were all of the apostles but that did not prevent the Holy Spirit from protecting him and the Church from ever teaching errors in the matter of faith and morals.
 
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YuRa:
So who is right? The Catholic Church and the tradition that it developed or the original Scriptures?
Welcome YuRa. A little research will reveal that it is through the Church that the NT Scripture was delivered. Furthermore, it is through the Holy Spirit and Sacred Tradition that the discernment of what the Scripture is and how it is to be interpreted was made.

Sola Scriptura is a false doctrine. This can be determined because it is not in the Bible.

May God bless and guide you in your search for the Truth and the Church which Jesus founded.
 
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oudave:
The problem is, they are fallible as well. That is why I pray to God to give me the wisdom to understand the scriptures. Here’s a question for you, when it comes to your salvation are you going to leave it up to sinful men to tell you what to believe, or God. The leaders of your church have already hidden the sexual abuse problems from the church as much as they could. You and I both know that it goes alot further than is being reported. There are even reports that the pope knew about what was going on. Can you honestly tell me that you are willing to entrust your salvation to anyone other than God. Of course the leaders of your church don’t want you thinking about the scriptures for yourself, you might start to question there teachings. Scripture talks about many false prophets and that we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.
In Him, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif
In addition, I would point out that the statistics on such abuses are EQUAL among non-Catholic clergy and are in fact HIGHER among teachers and like Lisa said every bit as well covered up and then neglected by the media…I was a reporter for a while and that’s just plain bias.

Again you make an unfounded assertion about our leaders. You can’t prove this statement because there’s no such thing w/in the Catholic Church…only among anti-Catholic preachers and authors who got YOUR money to feed you misinformation, misperception, and outright lies. YOU are listening to men…very fallible and peccable men who have lied and misled you and yet you believe them because they rattle off a few Bible verses and maybe went to some school somewhere where they got the same treatment you’re getting. You refuse to question them…They are no more knowlegeable than you are and all of you are confused, which testifies to the fact that you are not led by the Holy Spirit.

Please remember the rules that you agreed to when you signed up for this forum and that this is NOT a hunting ground for anti-Catholic evangelism or a platform for its propaganda. Either listen to what we have to say, or consider that you might be better off on a forum of your peers or even the JWs or Mormons, who would likely have banned you already.
 
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oudave:
Here’s a question for you, when it comes to your salvation are you going to leave it up to sinful men to tell you what to believe, or God.
  1. Please let me know where I can find someone on this earth without sin.
  2. Ever heard about Jimmy Swaggart ? He preached to millions and millions of people, and guess what ? He is far from being an angel.
  3. An American President committed immorality at the White House, does that mean that all American people are immoral ? Some German people committed the horror of WWII, does that mean that all Germans are evil people ?
You are too fast to draw conclusion. I used to attack the Catholic Church like you are doing now. That was before I knew what humility was. Now I know how wrong I was.

God bless
 
Church Militant:
In addition, I would point out that the statistics on such abuses are EQUAL among non-Catholic clergy and are in fact HIGHER among teachers and like Lisa said every bit as well covered up and then neglected by the media…I was a reporter for a while and that’s just plain bias.

Again you make an unfounded assertion about our leaders. You can’t prove this statement because there’s no such thing w/in the Catholic Church…only among anti-Catholic preachers and authors who got YOUR money to feed you misinformation, misperception, and outright lies. YOU are listening to men…very fallible and peccable men who have lied and misled you and yet you believe them because they rattle off a few Bible verses and maybe went to some school somewhere where they got the same treatment you’re getting. You refuse to question them…They are no more knowlegeable than you are and all of you are confused, which testifies to the fact that you are not led by the Holy Spirit.

Please remember the rules that you agreed to when you signed up for this forum and that this is NOT a hunting ground for anti-Catholic evangelism or a platform for its propaganda. Either listen to what we have to say, or consider that you might be better off on a forum of your peers or even the JWs or Mormons, who would likely have banned you already.
I see, you want me to listen to what you have to say and shut my mouth. I thought a forum was a place where people were supposed to exchange ideas. I think this is a reflection of the leaders of your church, you are supposed to be quiet and believe what they tell you to believe. I’m not here to hunt anybody, my wife was a catholic and we both have a strong desire to help them see the truth.
Davehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif
 
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oudave:
I see, you want me to listen to what you have to say and shut my mouth. I thought a forum was a place where people were supposed to exchange ideas. I think this is a reflection of the leaders of your church, you are supposed to be quiet and believe what they tell you to believe. I’m not here to hunt anybody, my wife was a catholic and we both have a strong desire to help them see the truth.
Davehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif
Oudave I was Church of Christ like you.I have been led to the Church that Christ started,and I am saddened that your wife has been pulled away from Jesus’ Church.The leaders of our Church encourage dialog with other Christians.Do you know what dialog is?Did you know before 1933 the Church of Christ was against contraception?What changed that?Why was it a moral evil then and not now and how do you know it’s not now?Because the elders and preacher tells you so.You are accusing us of doing the same thing your doing,but there is a difference,your elders and deacons and preachers have not been given the authority to teach you and interperate scripture.God Bless
 
I wonder if people like oudave understand that the effect they have on these boards is the exact opposite of what they think it has.

Never have I been more confident in the truth of the Catholic Church as when I see the ugly side of the enemies of the Church.
 
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adnauseum:
I wonder if people like oudave understand that the effect they have on these boards is the exact opposite of what they think it has.

Never have I been more confident in the truth of the Catholic Church as when I see the ugly side of the enemies of the Church.
No they think they are getting somewhere:rolleyes: God Bless
 
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YuRa:
I apologize for my rude and blunt statements which I would like to be deleted because they were written out of anger…forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive others…
You’re allready forgiven by us so don’t worry about it. We are all sinners and sin. We just have to learn to deal with it and move on. Just remember to forgive me if I offend you too.😉
I will come back to the forum after I have studied what Catholics actually believe, and not stereotype.
You’re not the first protestant who went to Catholics and told us what we beleived and why it was wrong then decide to learn the truth later. At least you can admit we know our Faith better then you.😉 I know many protestants on this site who are still telling us what we believe and why it’s wrong but they won’t admitt ther’re ignorent of the Faith. You’re a better person for admitting that. Now if millions of other protestants could do the same thing?
I understand a little more about your position now. When I come back it will be under a different name, and I will debate politely and not with anger.
Don’t change your name. We all make mistakes, you should see some of my posts! Oh my God. When you read them you need to make the sign of the cross, roll your eyes and shake your head back and forth and ask Blessed Mary to help me.:rolleyes: Suspended means you can take some time off, go to the beach, and come back refreashed. Banned means, uh, you get a new handle I guess?
For now I need to know what I am up against.
You’re not up against anything. Jesus welcomes you home into His Catholic Church whenever you want to cross the Tiber! The only barrier is the one Satan has put up to block your journey home to Rome. The only thing we have here is open arms and the Gospel of Christ.
Please learn my position as well and were we derive our different doctrines (solo fide and so on).
As an EX-protestant for 27 adult years I not only lived them, I knew them. When I learned them, when I learned the truth about them, when I learned Scripture, when the ‘scales’ were lifted off my eyes and I could finnaly ‘see’ His truth, when I learned history and the early Church - I cried and the Holy Ghost led me Home to Rome. I do not want to be Catholic, I did not choose this path, the Spiritus Sancti (Holy Ghost) placed me here. Christ told me to be here, heavenly Father smiles that I’m here. I’d rather be protestant so I could do whatever I want and pick and choose what to believe in. I like to sleep in on Sunday and not go to mass or church. I’d love to be back in the MARINEs and go to Iraq and shoot at people. I want to do whatever I want because I know I’m already saved! I am here because Jesus told us to folow and obey for a HOPE for salvation. I want that HOPE more then my family or my life or my pleasure here on earth. Faith is not doing what you want, it is doing what He wants. I live by theses words at times:

“…Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life…”

To whom shall we go?

Faith is following Jesus no matter what or where, even if it takes you into His Catholic Church where He wants you. As I quoted above, even the apostles doubted Jesus and what He taught.

Being a protestant was easy. Believe whatever you want and do whatever you want and feels good. Being a Catholic is hard. Following Christ is not easy and it is hard work.
Thank you for your patience, and please follow my request to delete my posts and account.
YuraGo in Gods peace, we look foward to your retun, here or in the life to come!

PS, I wish I could delete a post or two too. But, Jesus knows everything we say and at our judgment in the life to come we will have to account for every word to Him.
 
morey said:
1. Please let me know where I can find someone on this earth without sin.
  1. Ever heard about Jimmy Swaggart ? He preached to millions and millions of people, and guess what ? He is far from being an angel.
  2. An American President committed immorality at the White House, does that mean that all American people are immoral ? Some German people committed the horror of WWII, does that mean that all Germans are evil people ?
You are too fast to draw conclusion. I used to attack the Catholic Church like you are doing now. That was before I knew what humility was. Now I know how wrong I was.

God bless

I am going to try and clear a few things up here. Christ is the only one who was sinless, and no I don’t think that just because one person does something wrong then everyone else in that group is guilty of the same thing. Since when does giving your oppinion on something constitute as an attack? if I used your analogy then I have been attacked relentlesly, I have been called ignorant, stupid and a wolf just to mention a few. I think Jimmy Swaggert is a discrace to God along with Benny Hinn and most every other TV Evangelist. The church I go to is a very simple church, we follow scripture to best of our ability. We are very close to each other and whenever someone is in need someone always steps up to help out. I am not here for those who don’t want ot listen or to change the catholic church, that will not happen. I am here for those who question the catholic church, and have already had some interesting questions from people, so my prayer is that those questions will keep coming. I hope the reason you are getting so upset is because you are starting to have a few questions yourself. At least that is what I am praying for.
In Him, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif
 
morey said:
1. Please let me know where I can find someone on this earth without sin.
  1. Ever heard about Jimmy Swaggart ? He preached to millions and millions of people, and guess what ? He is far from being an angel.
  2. An American President committed immorality at the White House, does that mean that all American people are immoral ? Some German people committed the horror of WWII, does that mean that all Germans are evil people ?
You are too fast to draw conclusion. I used to attack the Catholic Church like you are doing now. That was before I knew what humility was. Now I know how wrong I was.

God bless

I am going to try and clear a few things up here. Christ is the only one who was sinless, and no I don’t think that just because one person does something wrong then everyone else in that group is guilty of the same thing. Since when does giving your oppinion on something constitute as an attack? if I used your analogy then I have been attacked relentlesly, I have been called ignorant, stupid and a wolf just to mention a few. I think Jimmy Swaggert is a discrace to God along with Benny Hinn and most every other TV Evangelist. The church I go to is a very simple church, we follow scripture to best of our ability. We are very close to each other and whenever someone is in need someone always steps up to help out. I am not here for those who don’t want ot listen or to change the catholic church, that will not happen. I am here for those who question the catholic church, and have already had some interesting questions from people, so my prayer is that those questions will keep coming. I hope the reason you are getting so upset is because you are starting to have a few questions yourself. At least that is what I am praying for.
In Him, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif
 
“Of this gospel I have become a servant according to the gift of God’s grace that was given to me by the working of his power. Although I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given to me to bring to the Gentiles the news of the boundless riches of Christ, and to make everyone see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; so that through the church the wisdom of God in its rich variety might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose that he has carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord” Eph 3:7-11

“By the Church” KJV “Through the Church” NRSV

The scripture given by Jesus to His Church is sufficient.

The Church given by Christ to the world is sufficient.

Most of us here on this site are more frustrated with our Catholic brothers and sisters who don’t read scripture or live the life Christ is calling us to than we are with our separated brethren.

Most of us here know non-Catholic Christians who have inspired and called us to a deeper faith. There is a true mystery to the faith that binds us that will be revealed during the last days.

When those days come and are already here that side by side we shed blood because of our faith in Jesus, how significant will be that which separates us?

In my personal walk with Christ I used to believe that all I needed was scripture.

Since I’ve been reconciled to the Church I know that it would be impossible for me to continue to grow in holiness as I have without the Church.

My friend tried to explain this to me two years ago but I just didn’t get it.

Now my love for Christ, my hunger for his Word, my desire to serve Him, my need to worship Him, and my yearning for His presence is beyond what I could ever have imagined.
 
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MarkAnthonyCozy:
In my personal walk with Christ I used to believe that all I needed was scripture.

Since I’ve been reconciled to the Church I know that it would be impossible for me to continue to grow in holiness as I have without the Church.

My friend tried to explain this to me two years ago but I just didn’t get it.

Now my love for Christ, my hunger for his Word, my desire to serve Him, my need to worship Him, and my yearning for His presence is beyond what I could ever have imagined.
Welcome home MarkAnthonyCozy!
 
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YuRa:
Yes I agree we should follow oral tradition and written,So, I see your going to reconcile with the Catholic Church. That’s great.
but what happens when oral tradition contradicts written?
That’s the difference between Catholics and protestants. Our Tradition never contridicts Scripture like protestant man made traditions do.
Should we follow oral tradition of what the Scriptures say?
Uhm, didn’t you know Scripture comes FROM Catholic oral Tradition? We call it the Gospel. Gospel means spoken word, not written. The Bible came hundreds of years after Jesus rose and He established His Catholic Church.

Study history and you’ll be Catholic. Don’t ignore it or rewrite it.

Keep it up and ‘see’ what you mean and say. You’ll be home in Rome in no time!:love:

Gods peace be with you Yu,:yup:
 
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oudave:
I see, … you are supposed to be quiet and believe what they tell you to believe. … Davehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif
OuDave,

I certainly don’t think any of us here are being quiet about our faith, and we believe we are speaking the truth as it has been taught to us, by our teacher, the Church. Scripture tells us to go to the Church if we have a dispute which is not settled. If there is no definitive Church with Authority to interpret, how could such disputes be settled in a manner which assuredly brings us to Truth.

Catholics believe that in God all things are possible, even the creation of a Church which is infallible in Her Teachings, unchanging Truths, because they are a reflection of the Complete and Infinite Love which we know as God. God is unchanging, even as we see different aspects of His Infinite Wonder and what we see appears to be different than what we may have previously conceived Him to be. He is Justice every bit as much as He is Love.

He is the Cross and the Resurrection. He is the Church, the Eucharist and the Word.

We are not automatons following like a lemmings headed towards a cliff. We are sheep, following the most wonderful of Shepherds, Pope John Paul II. God Bless him, he has shone more light on the truth than anyone else in current history, although Mother Theresa comes close.

Christ told us to pick-up our cross and follow Him. He didn’t say “Take me as your personal Lord and Savior, and then do what ever you want.” Please be cautious that your personal relationship with Christ accepts all of scripture. This is the beauty of Catholicism, once you open yourself to exploring it in it’s fullness. It is unbelievably consistant with all of Sacred Scripture, New and Old.

God Bless you OuDave. As you believe you are here to save us, we believe that the Holy Spirit brought you to us so that you might come to know the truth in it’s fullness. Know that we love you and wish you only the best.

and YuRa, I hope you’re still reading along. We love you (even if you did get out of line). 🙂 I think we all know the Lord’s Prayer well enough to understand that forgiveness is not only necessary but a good thing. I’ve been learning how to forgive in my personal life and I know it’s spilling out to other areas as well. Rest assured, there is no need to feel ashamed of any anger you have express here.

God Bless,

CARose
 
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oudave:
II am not here for those who don’t want ot listen or to change the catholic church. I am here for those who question the catholic church. At least that is what I am praying for.
In Him, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif
Another poster wrote:
In my personal walk with Christ I used to believe that all I needed was scripture.
Since I’ve been reconciled to the Church I know that it would be impossible for me to continue to grow in holiness as I have without the Church.
My friend tried to explain this to me two years ago but I just didn’t get it.
Now my love for Christ, my hunger for his Word, my desire to serve Him, my need to worship Him, and my yearning for His presence is beyond what I could ever have imagined.
Dear oudave,
Code:
Jesus wants you in the Church which He Himself founded and guides with the Holy Spirit. I believe that is why he has sent you hear. I pray that the Holy Spirit will cause the scales to fall from your eyes and give you eyes to see and ears to hear.
Let us go in peace to love and serve the Lord.
 
Scripture devolops tradition, and the oral traditions are all in Scripture now in creeds. Scripture did not devolop from the {Catholic} Church but Scripture and tradition was all eventually written by the aposltes in inspired text. Tradition is derived from Scripture not the other way around.

And Ignatius,

Christ did not form the Church as a building or sect. Both Catholic and and protestant churchs are His Church if they believe in the essentual docrine of justification. So if a person is in a protestant church and you tell that person go join His {Catholic} Church then you are implying he is an unbeliever.

If the church believes that justification is from anything different then the Scriptures spell out then that church is just a group of religious people lost in the world and as Paul describes it they believe a gospel that is “not a gospel at all”.
 
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YuRa:
I apologize for my rude and blunt statements which I would like to be deleted because they were written out of anger. I will come back to the forum after I have studied what Catholics actually believe, and not stereotype. I understand a little more about your position now. When I come back it will be under a different name, and I will debate politely and not with anger. For now I need to know what I am up against. Please learn my position as well and were we derive our different doctrines (solo fide and so on). Thank you for your patience, and please follow my request to delete my posts and account.

Yura
**This exact (almost) post seems to be habit with you. I was reading through another thread today - “What do you think scripture says about Mary” and you seem to come into this forum and blast us left and right about our beliefs acting as if your interpretation is the only right one - which btw, your interpretation of scripture is the most awful I’ve seen in quite a while. How you twist the scripture to mean what you think it means is absolutely amazing to watch. **

I’m not sure on how to post the thread as I’ve seen others do when referencing, but go to the Scripture forum (What do you think Scripture says about Mary) and see YuRa’s work and this exact same post with the request to delete - just like here.

Me thinks YuRa has an anger problem and should probably attend anger management courses since he’s always apologizing for his posts made in anger.
 
Me thinks you have a pride problem and YuRa is a humble individual who apologized for his sin.
 
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