Z
zach_dunn
Guest
Didn’t you know that White (and by extension al people who believe in sola Scriptura) is more wise then the apostles themselves? Not to mention the 2000 year old Church. Silly you.
- Status
T
Tiberius1701
Guest
Oh yeah. I guess I’m just too eager to humbly admit that I’ve been wrong over and over and over and over again, and too ready to humbly submit to Church authority like a little sheep following his Shepherd. Shame on me for being repentant and docile. The Bible clearly tells us not to be like that… right?
D
DianaCC
Guest
Reservation of orders to males only. Reservation to unmarried men is not from tradition but from human wisdom. Also the extent of the Biblical canon; the fact of inspiration (inspiration of scripture cannot be proven from scripture); the identity of the true Church (scripture says Jesus founded a Church, but which one of today’s many denominations is that one); that marriage is a sacrament. In general, whatever the Catechism adds to scripture can be labelled “tradition”.
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
Correct. The Greek (Pasa = every, Graphe = writing, singular) more likely means “Every individual passage or individual book is inspired and sufficient” where as Protestants need it to say “All Scripture, all 66 books together, are inspired and sufficient”.
Does White address this? There is no good Protestant defense.
Typical. But proving Scripture inspired is a non issue, as you’ve already figured.
:banghead:
W
WesleyF
Guest
The one that I remember at the top of my head is the teaching about the Lord’s day.Thank you for that, that’s very comforting to know!Do you know of any other teachings we know come from Tradition?
This was written by Ignatius of Antioch, a personal disciple of the apostle John. Although he doesn’t explicitly identify it as a tradition of the apostles, you could expect John’s personal disciple to know better about orthodox doctrine than to preach nonsense!
“Those who were brought up in the ancient order of things * have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death” (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).*
A
ajcstr
Guest
You may want to follow up with Robert Sungenis book Not By Scripture Alone
Might be a good contrast for you. I have that on my summer reading list along with Not By Faith Alone. I have thumbed through both and that both look pretty thorough. Not by Scripture Alone actually looks like a collaboration. You can see the table of contents here:
amazon.com/Not-Scripture-Alone-Protestant-Scriptura/dp/1579180558/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1307024074&sr=1-1
Z
zach_dunn
Guest
As a matter of fact he does not . . . and with good reason I believe! He wouldn’t want the Catholics to be right about something!
I shall join you. :banghead:
Z
zach_dunn
Guest
Thank you! Those are very good points that I will add to my argument against sola Scriptura!
The one that I remember at the top of my head is the teaching about the Lord’s day.
This was written by Ignatius of Antioch, a personal disciple of the apostle John. Although he doesn’t explicitly identify it as a tradition of the apostles, you could expect John’s personal disciple to know better about orthodox doctrine than to preach nonsense!
“Those who were brought up in the ancient order of things * have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death” (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).*
Thank you! I’m currently drafting a comprehensive argument against sola Scriptura and this will help immensely!
Z
zach_dunn
Guest
Thanks! I have had my eye on this book for a while but the last time I checked (admittedly a while ago), amazon didn’t have it in stock and I’m not a fan of buying from other sellers so I just figured I’d wait. Thanks for the suggestion though!
A
ajcstr
Guest
Yeah, I got mine from a private seller and it worked out ok. I’m thinking that the book is out of print.
Z
zach_dunn
Guest
It’s a shame, my research indicates that it’s a very scholarly look at sola Scriptura . . . I would think most Catholics would want it. Perhaps it’s because of what Sungenis turned into . . . ?
@_@
C
Crumpy
Guest
The chief function of the Church is to evangelize the world. Now, a lot of other sub functions can be found all over, but the mission of the Church is as Jesus established in Mt 28, to teach the gospel to all nations.If, as you say, Tradition contains how we understand Scripture, what is the function of the Church?
Confused.
Jesus told Peter that on the ‘rock’ He would build His Church. Obviously this is a complex and deep statement, but the idea has to be that the Church is the core out of which spirals the evangelization of the world.
The other implications come out of all of Jesus’ life and teaching. The church protects the scriptures and offers up the liturgy of the Mass intitiated by Christ.
T
Tiberius1701
Guest
The Church is also the living Body of Christ without which Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition would cease to exist. God declares that His Word shall never pass away, but perhaps the chief method by which He ensures the fulfillment of that prophecy is by the parallel fulfillment of the prophecy that the gates of hades shall never prevail against the Church. Hades is the abode of the dead, so this, among other things, means that the Church shall never die. And if the Church can neither die nor be destroyed, then this same One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church shall always be alive in the world to perpetuate the preaching of the Written Word of God (Scripture) and the teaching of the Spoken Word of God (Tradition), both of which flow from the very Heart of the Son, who is the Living Word of God (and thus also flow from the heart of the Church).
I know you’re not saying that the Church has no purpose; you’re just trying to understand what its purpose is. So consider this: if the Church, which is Christ’s Body, had no purpose, then Christ Himself, who is perfectly One with His Body, must likewise be understood to have no purpose, since it is by the personal charism of Christ the King that His Visible Body, the Church, continues His ministry of preaching, teaching, and administering the Sacraments. He and His Church are intimately and integrally linked for all eternity. The purpose of the Church, which is the people of God, is to be Christ to the world. So, since His purpose is the most paramount purpose ever taken up throughout all time and space, then so is that of His Church. Tradition and Scripture are of absolutely unfathomable importance - amen! - but without the Church to faithfully pass them on to each successive generation, how would we know anything of them? We’re already seeing, through the machinations of those who have completely cut themselves off both from the Catholic Church and thus from the Sacred Tradition that flows from It, the utter degradation and dismantling of Sacred Scripture by a group that dares call itself by Christ’s own name: “The Jesus Seminar”. Without the Church to safeguard and faithfully echo the Truth, there would be none left…
I know you’re not saying that the Church has no purpose; you’re just trying to understand what its purpose is. So consider this: if the Church, which is Christ’s Body, had no purpose, then Christ Himself, who is perfectly One with His Body, must likewise be understood to have no purpose, since it is by the personal charism of Christ the King that His Visible Body, the Church, continues His ministry of preaching, teaching, and administering the Sacraments. He and His Church are intimately and integrally linked for all eternity. The purpose of the Church, which is the people of God, is to be Christ to the world. So, since His purpose is the most paramount purpose ever taken up throughout all time and space, then so is that of His Church. Tradition and Scripture are of absolutely unfathomable importance - amen! - but without the Church to faithfully pass them on to each successive generation, how would we know anything of them? We’re already seeing, through the machinations of those who have completely cut themselves off both from the Catholic Church and thus from the Sacred Tradition that flows from It, the utter degradation and dismantling of Sacred Scripture by a group that dares call itself by Christ’s own name: “The Jesus Seminar”. Without the Church to safeguard and faithfully echo the Truth, there would be none left…
A
ajcstr
Guest
As far as book sales go, unfortunately, I think only a small percentage of Catholics would be interested in such a volume. I guess my point is you should grab it before it starts selling for $40
Is something up with him? I read his letter against John Paul II but is there more?Perhaps it’s because of what Sungenis turned into . . . ?
Z
zach_dunn
Guest
Well, it just seems (to me) that he has a general dislike for the rest of Catholic apologists. Especially those who don’t agree with him (cough read: Catholic Answers). But the biggest issue people have with him are his beliefs about science. He’s a staunch geocentrist; I’m not saying it’s wrong, I’m just saying the majority of people do. He seems to be very fanatical about it. So much so that he’s written two books supposedly ‘proving’ geocentrism to be true: Galileo Was Wrong The Church Was Right: Vol. 1: The Scientific Case for Geocentrism and Galileo Was Wrong The Church Was Right: Vol. 2: The Historical Case for Geocentrism. There is also his website where he spews hatred for everyone but those who agree with him: galileowaswrong.com/galileowaswrong/.
These reasons are essentially why people tend to dislike him.
Z
zach_dunn
Guest
Thank you both very much for your answers! You’ve both helped me understand a lot!
P.S. Tiberius, I see your 1701 and raise you one 74656!
T
Tiberius1701
Guest
V’ger… read Shatner’s trilogies and you will see that your namesake is the origin of the Borg! hehe. Just kidding. Voyager is cool… just not as cool as PicardThank you both very much for your answers! You’ve both helped me understand a lot!
P.S. Tiberius, I see your 1701 and raise you one 74656!
Z
zach_dunn
Guest
NOOOOO!!! Janeway > Picard!V’ger… read Shatner’s trilogies and you will see that your namesake is the origin of the Borg! hehe. Just kidding. Voyager is cool… just not as cool as Picard
haha, in my opinion anyway! I never watched Star Trek until my roommate this past year made me watch it. Voyager was my Star Trek upbringing so I’m very loyal to it . I love Next Gen though, I’m especially fond of First Contact. Great movie.
T
Tiberius1701
Guest
I grew up on TOS books and TNG on the TV, but the reason I love Picard is because he’s always been the most unwaveringly moral Captain on the shows (Sisco being the least moral, of course - lousy schmuck torched a whole planet just to catch one man… and got away with it scott free!!!). I considered writing a commentary on all the TNG episodes from a Christian perspective (it would probably be from a Catholic one if I wrote it now, but I hadn’t even been introduced to the Church when I thought of doing that), but I have better things to write about now…NOOOOO!!! Janeway > Picard!
J
JRRTFAN
Guest
You weren’t convinced because James is wrong. Sola Scriptura is a heresy and Jim is an anti-Catholic heretic. He makes his living bashing the Church. The facts are that the Canon of Scripture was not canonized until the 4th century. If Scripture is a requirement for salvation what did 325 years of Christians do for their enlightened salvation?
Jimmy White has truncated the whole of Christianity into a North American individualistic fundamentalism as sole and necessary. He’s not even lucid, don’t waste time on him when you have the true teachings of the Church. Heck, his sister, Patti Bonds even repudiated his hoo-har.
Go on EWTN and do a search for “Journey Home” in the audio library, then search for “Patti Bonds” and hear what she says about Mr. James White.
- Status