Scripture and Mary

[teachccd]

teachccd

I see you know nothing about Protetants. There isn’t a single doctrine there. The only thing you listed there at all pertaining to faith is that you need to have Jesus Christ as your personal saviour and that is very Scriptural. It is also the only way to salvation. Even Mary recognized Christ as her personal Saviour. She referred to Him as her Saviour.

But then I doubt if you have ever read that Scripture.

I was reprimanded for being uncharitable but well…o.k.

You’re right…I’ve never read the Scriptures because Catholics are forbidden to read Scripture. We burned all of our Bilbles, remember???

 

[SoonerforChrist]

A Catholic said that Mary is God’s wife…??? That’s it. I’m checking out the Islamic faith…

Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit. Our lady is intimately linked to the Holy Spirit - The 3rd person of THE most blessed Trinity! Her profound obedience and love to God is not a mere exaggeration. Mary is united to the Holy Spirit in an unspeakable closeness. After all, how did she get pregnant again?

 

[teachccd]

You really should read the writings of Polycarp, Ignatius, Barnabas, Clement, Papais, Mathetes, Justin Martyn, Irenæus, and many writers of the next couple of centuries. They never wrote that tradition trumped Scripture but instead said tradition had to be supported by Scripture or else it was invalid.

Very good observation!!!

 

[SoonerforChrist]

I was reprimanded for being uncharitable but well…o.k.

You’re right…I’ve never read the Scriptures because Catholics are forbidden to read Scripture. We burned all of our Bilbles, remember???

:clapping:

 

[teachccd]

Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit. Our lady is intimately linked to the Holy Spirit - The 3rd person of THE most blessed Trinity! Her profound obedience and love to God is not a mere exaggeration. Mary is united to the Holy Spirit in an unspeakable closeness. After all, how did she get pregnant again?

Yes, I am aware of the theology. I was just commenting on the use of the term, “God’s wife”. Anyhow, Merry Christmas to all…things are way too tense here for me right now…God Bless…teachccd

 

[SoonerforChrist]

Yes, I am aware of the theology. I was just commenting on the use of the term, “God’s wife”. Anyhow, Merry Christmas to all…things are way too tense here for me right now…God Bless…teachccd

Cool! I have a great Christmas story to tell you. I went to confession today as I set up an appointment with the priest between Mass’. It was a great confession and right when I walked out of Church a person who was not so well off asked me for money and I said I didn’t have any money to give him, in reality I did… I fealt so bad, that I rejected one of God’s children of a few dollars. My wife walked out of the Church and I told her what happened and how bad I was feeling, especially when coming out of confession. I prayed that God would give me a 2nd chance! Well, we were driving down the road to get some breakfast, and I saw the guy’s truck, I was in the left lane, and he was at a gas station that was closer to the right lane. I almost got into a wreck and turned from he left lane to the right lane, pulled into the gas station and gave the guy some money.

God is about 2nd chances, and He really taught me about forgiveness and 2nd chances.

Mary Christ’s Mass!

 

[teachccd]

Cool! I have a great Christmas story to tell you. I went to confession today as I set up an appointment with the priest between Mass’. It was a great confession and right when I walked out of Church a person who was not so well off asked me for money and I said I didn’t have any money to give him, in reality I did… I fealt so bad, that I rejected one of God’s children of a few dollars. My wife walked out of the Church and I told her what happened and how bad I was feeling, especially when coming out of confession. I prayed that God would give me a 2nd chance! Well, we were driving down the road to get some breakfast, and I saw the guy’s truck, I was in the left lane, and he was at a gas station that was closer to the right lane. I almost got into a wreck and turned from he left lane to the right lane, pulled into the gas station and gave the guy some money.

God is about 2nd chances, and He really taught me about forgiveness and 2nd chances.

Mary Christ’s Mass!

I thought that you were going to tell me that he was driving an Escalade!! Thank you for sharing that story. Yes, thank God that He does give us second chances. If only we could all do the same when others trespass against us.

Mary Christ’s Mass to you and yours…teachccd :angel1:

 

[Old_Scholar]

Symbolic speaking in Catholic theology, Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit. This is how Catholic view Mary theologically.

Mary is the Daughter of God, the Father, Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and the Mother of Jesus Christ.

**This one I can’t let go by without comment.

Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit? That is certainly a distorted view and totally incorrect. The Holy Spirit has no spouse and if Mary were the spouse, that would make Mary a God and Mary is no more a God than you or I.

Then you say mary is the Daughter of God…No more than we are all children of God. How can you make such statements? I agree that Mary is the biological mother of Jesus but she is not mother of God. Christ existed long before Mary ever was thought of. To call her mother of God, spouse of the Holy Spirit and the daughter of God is blasphemous.

You need to rethink your position…**

 

[Old_Scholar]

**jcrichton
janet S
epostle
teachccd

and others I have posted with on this forum.**

Just a short note to say how much I have enjoyed being on this forum and communicating with all of you. I have many Catholic friends but none of them are very knowledgeable about their faith. They’re the “let the church do it” type. I really appreciate being able to respond back and forth with someone knowledgeable.

Sometimes it seems that being a little combative invokes more response and I am guilty of that. My purpose in being here however, is to learn more about the Catholic faith and other faiths and I find the forums interesting when a decent dialogue can be had. I can’t tell you how much I have learned in the last few years that I have participated in such forums. They are quite interesting and knowledgeable, as I said before.

If I seem to step on toes, then I apologize. My intent is to learn more about God and my faith and the faith of other Christians. I fear that one day we may all be deeply concerned with another faith rapidly expanding in our country and their goal is to eliminate us all.

I hope and pray that each one of you have a very Merry Christmas with your families. I certainly plan to. We will all go to church tomorrow evening, then to dinner as is our custom, this year I believe it is Outback, and the fellowship with family is the highlight of our season. Of course we will all spend Christmas Day together. Fortunately we all live withing 15 miles of each other and there are usually 30 or more of us there.

I pray that you will all remember the reason for this special holiday. I am certain all our goals are to reach the salvation we seek and spend eternity with our Saviour. God Bless you all and God Bless our great country.

 

[epostle]

In the case of Limbus Infantium, you need to do a little reading. Go to:

1257 - 1261

You can read all about the Catechism there. By the way, when the Pope abolished the doctrine, he said: “I never did believe in it anyhow.”

No Pope has ever abolished any doctrine, it’s as impossible as inventing them.

*1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” 63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” 64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
64 Mk 10:14; cf. I Tim 2:4.*

Notice, that in your quote of the catechism, not limbo, and not even the concept of limbo, is present. I hope a day will come when you can appreciate the depth and richness of the catechism.

 

[epostle]

Oops, I forgot one.

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. 60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. 61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. 62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
60 Cf. Jn 3:5.
61 Cf. Mt 28:19-20; cf. Council of Trent (1547) DS 1618; LG 14; AG 5.
62 Cf. Mk 16:16.

Nothing about limbo there either.

 

[teachccd]

jcrichton
janet S
epostle
teachccd

and others I have posted with on this forum.

Just a short note to say how much I have enjoyed being on this forum and communicating with all of you. I have many Catholic friends but none of them are very knowledgeable about their faith. They’re the “let the church do it” type. I really appreciate being able to respond back and forth with someone knowledgeable.

Sometimes it seems that being a little combative invokes more response and I am guilty of that. My purpose in being here however, is to learn more about the Catholic faith and other faiths and I find the forums interesting when a decent dialogue can be had. I can’t tell you how much I have learned in the last few years that I have participated in such forums. They are quite interesting and knowledgeable, as I said before.

If I seem to step on toes, then I apologize. My intent is to learn more about God and my faith and the faith of other Christians. I fear that one day we may all be deeply concerned with another faith rapidly expanding in our country and their goal is to eliminate us all.

I hope and pray that each one of you have a very Merry Christmas with your families. I certainly plan to. We will all go to church tomorrow evening, then to dinner as is our custom, this year I believe it is Outback, and the fellowship with family is the highlight of our season. Of course we will all spend Christmas Day together. Fortunately we all live withing 15 miles of each other and there are usually 30 or more of us there.

I pray that you will all remember the reason for this special holiday. I am certain all our goals are to reach the salvation we seek and spend eternity with our Saviour. God Bless you all and God Bless our great country.

Yes, I also agree that our fervency sometimes gets confused with being combative. Jesus never backed down when He proclaimed the Kingdom of God. He always held His ground much to the dismay of the Pharisees and many of His followers. If anyone were to say,“Oh that sounds good even though it is contrary to the truth” cannot be called a soldier for Christ.

I, too, find that these forums open up different perspectives and allow for growth even if I must research my own beliefs further.Yes, as a Catholic Christian my entire life is focused on salvation through our Lord, Jesus Christ. If I did not see the truth in His Church and their teachings, then I would move on to find that truth. I could not remain in a lie just for the sake of being stubborn. So, I also thank you for the dialogue and look forward to more discussion in the near future.

May you have a blessed and Merry Christmas. Thank you for your well wishes and may the Lord Jesus Christ be with all of us as we seek to know Him and spend eternity with Him.

Old Scholar, Keep up the good work. We disagree on a few issues but we both stand at the foot of the Cross and look up at the same Christ as we shed our tears at His suffering. That is a love that transcends theological debates and gathers us all as one…Merry Christmas…teachccd

 

[teachccd]

I agree that Mary is the biological mother of Jesus but she is not mother of God. Christ existed long before Mary ever was thought of. To call her mother of God, spouse of the Holy Spirit and the daughter of God is blasphemous.

You need to rethink your position…

One more for the road…

Who is Jesus? Is He not fully God and fully man? Did Mary split Jesus in two during His birth? Could she divide His two natures and just give birth to His humanity? No. We know that this is a heresy that was dealt with centuries ago. So being that she gave birth to a person and that person was God it would be theologically correct to call Mary the Mother of God. Yes Jesus existed eternally with the Father and the Holy Spirit but He was born of the Virgin Mary and became Man. He was the God Man and she is His mother.

We only view Mary’s role from the view of Who Christ is. Jesus is God. See John 1:1. Catholics never made that up. The Word was God and Mary gave birth to the Word. Jesus never ceased being the Word at His incarnation. So Mary gave birth to God. In greek we call her “theotokos” or “the God-Bearer”. If we say that Mary only gave birth to the human Jesus, we just negated His hypostatic union and fall into heresy…

O.K. I’m all done and I have to go to bed. Tomorrow I have last minute Christmas shopping so I need my beauty rest. And being that I am an ugly guy, that could take a few hours…Merry Christmas…teachccd :heaven:

 

[Janet_S]

Janet S

Well if you think this list is a joke, then refute it. I will give you proof of several and you said you would like to see me give proof of even one.

Immersion of Infants who are dying but considered sinless. 200 A.D. Tertullian V 12
(Tertullian,On Baptism,18 (A.D. 200/206),in ANF,III:678)

North Africa practicing infant baptism can be found here: “Letter of Cyprian and his Colleagues to Fidus,” 64 (or 59), 2 (AD 251-252):

Forbidding marriage of priests was introduced at the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D. but was rejected, just as I said.

Praying to Mary and the Saints was started in 379 A.D. by Ephraim Syrus. You will find it listed under the prayers of Ephraim Syrus.

In 385 A.D., the first prohibition of clerical marriage came from the Roman Church in the form of a decretal letter of the bishop Siricius to Himerius, bishop of Tarragona.

389 A.D. Mariolatry began with Gregory Nazianzen, who mentions in a eulogy, how Justina had besought the virgin Mary to protect her virginity.

Once saved always saved came from Augustine XII 9, 400 A.D.

Infant baptism of all infants by immersion was commanded by the Council of Mela.

It was the Council of Ephesus that first applied the exhalation of Mary as “Mother of God.”

Gregory the Great gave the doctrine of Purgatory from the Apocrypha. 593 A.D.

In 600 A.D., Gregory I was the first to use Latin in Worship.

The first person to be considered the ‘Universal Bishop” was Boniface III, by a decree of the Emperor Phocas in 607 A.D.

The worshiping of images and statues was approved at the 2nd Council of Nicaea in 787 A.D.

Pope John XV was the one who canonized dead saints in 995 A.D.

Pope Gregory VII in 1079 declared that priests, bishops and presbyters must be celibate in 1079.

It was Pope Innocent III, at the fourth Lateran Council who claimed Transubstantiation in 1215 A.D.

At the same time in 1215 A.D. Pope Innocent also instituted the Auricular Confession of sins to priests at the same Lateran Council.

In 1311 A.D., Baptism by sprinkling was accepted as the universal standard instead of immersion for all, not just the sick at the Council of Ravenna.

Purgatory was considered a Dogma by the Council of Florence in 1439 A.D.

The Apocryphal books were added to the Roman Catholic Bible in 1545 at the Council of Trent.

1870 A.D., it was the Vatican Council that declared the pope was infallible.

The Assumption of the body of Mary into heaven shortly after her death was proclaimed by Pope Pius XII in 1950 A.D.

In 1954, Pope Pius XII also proclaimed that Mary came as the “Immaculate Conception.”

It was only in 1996 that Pope John Paul II, gave Catholics permission to believe in evolution.

Now is there any of that not true? You will find everything if you will simply check the references. I forgot to mention Limbo. I remember when the pope reversed that, not too many years ago.

Please, you didn’t do anything but post the same bunk again. I already gave references that refuted Boettner’s list here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3111715&postcount=155

I will mention one of your “facts” that I can prove easily is not true. Boettner claims that the Catholic Church added the so-called “apocrypha” in 1545 at the Council of Trent. This is an outright lie. These books were in every Bible before the the Reformation, then after the Reformation, Protestants took them out. These 7 books are Tobit, Judith, Baruch, Sirach, I & II Maccabees, Wisdom. You will find all 7 books in the Gutenberg Bible (from the 1450’s). This is easy to prove since the Gutenberg Bible is online. Look for yourself which books were in the Bible before the Council of Trent:
molcat1.bl.uk/treasures/gutenberg/search.asp

 

[Janet_S]

---

This is simply another case of the Roman Catholics changing the Scriptures to say what they want it to say.:

How are you so sure you’re not the one changing Scripture to say what you want it to say.

Traditions" here does not refer in any manner to human traditions, but to* the authentic teachings of the apostles as handed down orally, by them only, before the New Testament was available*. Paul’s use of yours" in this verse is not epistolary, but has reference to the apostles of Christ. :

Where in Scripture does it say that?

No Scripture written since 100 A.D. has been excepted for the canon, even by the Catholic Church. Nothing said or proclaimed by a mere man has any authority at all, when it deviates from the written Scriptures. When the last apostle died, then no inspired writings were ever made.

Where in Scripture does it say that?

 

[teachccd]

This one is a joke. So many Catholic doctrines have been changed. The latest one was Limbo. Check your history.

200 AD - immersion of infants who are dying.
250 AD - infant babptism
257 AD - baptism by sprinkling for adults instead of immersion
300 AD - prayers for the dead
320 AD - special dress code for clergy
325 AD - proposed to prohibit marriage of priests - rejected.
325 AD - date set for Easter
379 AD - praying to Mary & Saints allowed.
385 AD - probihition of clerical marriage
389 AD - Mariolatry begins to protect the virginity of Mary
400 AD - Impossibility of apostasy or once saved always saved
416 AD - infant baptism by immersion commanded of all infants
430 AD - claimed Mary was Mother of God
502 AD - another special dress code for clergy
500 AD - habit for Nuns
519 AD - Lent
526 AD - Extreme Unction
593 AD - doctrine of purgatory
600 AD - First use of Latin in worship
607 AD - First Pope declared Boniface III
608 AD - Boniface turns the Pantheon in Rome into a temply of Mary ad martyres: the pagan Olympus into a Christian heaven of God.
670 AD - first instrumental music
709 AD - Kissing of Pope’s feet
753 AD - Baptism by sprinkling for those on sick beds.
787 AD - Constantantinople and Rome part ways
965 AD - Baptism of bells instituted by Pope John XIII
850 AD - burnign of holy candles
995 AD - Canonization of dead saints.
998 AD - Good Friday: fish only and eating red meat forbidden
1009 AD - holy water
1022 AD - penance
1054 AD - Rome splits from the Orthodox Church
1054 AD - RCC officially embraces instrumental music.
1079 AD - celibacy enforced for Priests
1090 AD - Rosary beads invented
1095 AD - instrumentsl music allowed again
1190 AD - sale of indulgences or “tickets to sin”
1215 AD - Transubstantiation by Pope Innocent III
1230 AD - ringing of bells at mass
1268 AD - priestly ower of absolution
1311 AD - Baptism by sprinkling accepted again as the universal standard instead of immersion for all, not just the sick.
1414 AD - Laity no longer offered cup at communion
1439 AD - Purgatory a dogma
1439 AD - Doctrine of Seven Sacraments
1495 AD - Papal control of marriage rights
1534 AD - Order of Jesuits created
1545 AD - Man made tradition made equal to Bible
1545 AD - Apocryphal books added to Bible
1546 AD - Justification by human works of merit
1546 AD - mass universally said in Latin
1547 AD - Confirmation
1560 AD - Personal opinions of Pope imposed as official record.
1864 AD - Proclamation that Pope had authority over all civil rulers. Catholic countries could not tolerate other religions.
1870 AD - infallibility of the Pope
1908 AD - All catholics should be christened into the church.
1930 AD - Public schools condemned
1950 AD - Sinners prayer adopted. (made popular by Billy Graham)
1950 AD - Assumption of Mary
1954 AD - Immaculate conception of Mary
1995 AD - use of girls as altar boys
1996 AD - Catholics can believe in evolution

And the doctrine of Limbo has been abolished.

How many changes do you need???

I see that you know absolutely NOTHING about Catholicism. Most of the above list are not and have never been doctrine. You have theological opinion and canon law and devotions all tied together. Boy are you confused…

 

[teachccd]

How are you so sure you’re not the one changing Scripture to say what you want it to say.

Where in Scripture does it say that?

Where in Scripture does it say that?

Makes you wonder if Old Scholar ever read a Bible. He sure seems free to make up the things that he wants and are not found in the Bible. Hmmmm…It’s one thing to change Scripture and another to make things up…teachccd

 

[EphelDuath]

526 AD - Extreme Unction

James 5:14-15 was written in the 6th century?

 

[boppaid]

I stand reprimanded!! But you did take my replies out of context and even to whom they were directed. But the good news is…this thread is moving again!!

I’m sorry that you took my comments as uncharitable. All of those who know me personally would disagree but that’s what happens in forums since there is no facial expressions. I reply in the light of how the conversation is at hand and to whom I am directing my responses. I need not continue to explain myself but I am very fervent in my faith and sometimes that does come off as being brazen…Thank you for keeping me in check and God Bless you…teachccd

Teach, I’ve seen you post a lot on here. I know you did not INTEND to sound uncharitable. I just wanted to point that out to you, as sometimes we come across on here differently than we intend (like you said…no facial expressions…you can’t read tone). I do that often myself. It is so difficult on these boards!

God bless, and Praise God! Our savior was born today!! Merry Christmas to you and yours!

 

[boppaid]

I was reprimanded for being uncharitable but well…o.k.

You’re right…I’ve never read the Scriptures because Catholics are forbidden to read Scripture. We burned all of our Bilbles, remember???

Yeah, no doubt! Old Scholar, I spanked Teach ( ) , now I’m spanking you! Please, this debate could be so wonderful if we just kept ourselves under control. Honestly, many on this board (on both sides of the issue) have some very good points. But Old Scholar, when we throw out insults like this, all points are lost.

*Edited to add, Old Scholar, I just saw your post where you acknowledged this. I agree w/ everything you wrote. We get so passionate that sometimes we come across differently than we want.

Anyway, have a very Merry Christmas all!