Scripture and mention of the Trinity?

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Carlan

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I am talking to a JW.
Please give me all scripture which proves explicitly the mystery of the Father Son and Holy Spirit as Three Persons in one God.
Also do you have a simple analogy to give a Jehovah Witness? Thank you!
Peace, Carlan
 
As you know, there is no use of the term Trinity, but there are many places where Jesus claims to be God. Also, Matthew 28 gives the Trinitarian formula for Baptism, this supports the belief in the Trinity. Genesis 1:26 says, “Then God said, “Let us make mankind in** our **image, in our likeness”, this seems to support the Trinity.You might question why JH’s don’t believe in the Trinity. I’m sure others can give more support on this.
 
John 1:1, “…and the Word was God” (Gk: everything that God was, the Word was). The JW’s mistranslate this as “a god”, and the more educated ones will attempt to give you a line about “ho theos” (of God) and “ton theon” (the God) in the Gk being “two separate gods” because of the different suffixes or declensions, which is obvious bull, but you can’t really refute it unless you know basic Greek. The really educated ones will try to quote Origen’s subordinationist Christology, which is a different game.

John 1:14 “and the Word was incarnate, and tabernacled amongst men” - the Word didn’t become not the Word when he was incarnate: JWs think that Jesus was an angel, and then became only human, and pure human, no spirit, when he incarnated, and then was given deification as a reward for his obedience, becoming spiritual again.

Matt 28:19: “…in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit” - not in the names of.

Gen 1:1-2 “In the beginning God created…and the Spirit of God was hovering…” - no distinction is made between the Spirit and God. The JWs mistranslate this as “the active force of God”. In LXX Gk, it’s “pneuma ho theos”, or “a/the breath/wind/spirit of/from God”, in MT Heb it’s “ruach elohim”, or “Spirit/breath/wind of God/mighty ones/Judges”.

They also love to quote a mistranslation of one of the Proverbs (8:2? 8:24?) that says “wisdom was created before all things”, and equate Wisdom with Jesus: the correct translation, if I recall, is something like, “wisdom was established before all things”.

It comes down to 1) rejecting magisterial authority and tradition, and 2) sola scriptura, which is self-defeating. If one rejects Church authority and hews to sola scriptura, there is no limit to the heresy that can be put forth, even to the point of alteration of the canon itself.
 
Matthew 3:13:
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan, unto John, to be baptized by him. 14 But John stayed him, saying: I ought to be baptized by thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering, said to him: Suffer it to be so now. For so it becometh us to fulfill all justice. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him. 17 And behold a voice from heaven, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
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Matthew 28:19
28:19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
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Isaiah 6:3:
ISA 6:3 And they cried one to another, and said: Holy, holy, holy, the Lord God of hosts, all the earth is full of his glory.
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Luke 1:35: Be careful of this one. The believe the bible says son(lowercase) of God.
And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
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Abraham sees “The Lord” and calls him “Sir” in the singular, but he greets “Them” in the plural and three people are standing before him.

***The LORD appeared to Abraham *by the oak of Mamre, as he sat in the entrance of his tent, while the day was growing hot. Looking up, he saw three men standing near him. When he saw them, he ran from the entrance of the tent to greet them; and bowing to the ground, he said: “Sir, if it please you, do not go on past your servant." (Geneis 18:1-3)

Three persons, one Lord.

-Tim-
 
Peter the Pope knows about the trinity, even if he does not use the word.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the chosen sojourners of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, in the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification by the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling with the blood of Jesus Christ: may grace and peace be yours in abundance. (1 Peter 1:1-2)*

God the Father, Spirit, Jesus Christ… the Trinity.

-Tim-
 
Also, 2 Peter 1:1 “Simon Peter, servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained equal faith with us in the justice of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.”

And Titus 2:13 “…looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.”

All modern versions (ESV, NASB, NIV, NAB, NJB, RSV, NRSV) support that or a very similar rendering in both verses (“God and Savior Jesus Christ”), although the Douay-Rheims doesn’t (and I’m not sure about the N/KJV), according the Granville Sharp’s Rule of Greek Grammar. I’m pretty sure the JW NWT translation mistranslates those too, as they’re obviously saying that Jesus is God.

And Hebrews 1:8 “But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.” (Referencing Psalm 45, specifically 45:6.)
Bruce M. Metzger:
The passage in the Old Testament to which Jehovah’s Witnesses (and Arians of every age) appeal most frequently is Proverbs 8:22 ff. The translation usually given is the following, or something similar to it: “Jehovah made me [that is, Wisdom, interpreted as the Son] in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.” This rendering understands the verb קנה to be used here with the meaning “to create.” The true translation of this passage, however, according to a learned study by the eminent Semitic scholar, F.C. Burney, must be, “The Lord begat me as the beginning of his way …” [F.C. Burney, “Christ as the ΑΡΧΗ of creation,” Journal of Theological Studies, XXVII (1926), 160-177.] The context favors this rendering, for the growth of the embryo is described in the following verse (verse 23, where the verb appears, as a footnote in Kittel’s Hebrew Bible suggests, to be from the root סכך “knit together,” as in Job 10:11 and Psalm 139:13), and the birth of Wisdom is described in the two following verses (24 and 25). Thus, in the context, the verb קנה in verse 22 appears with certainty to mean “got” or “begot.”
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Khalid said:
They also love to quote a mistranslation of one of the Proverbs (8:2? 8:24?) that says “wisdom was created before all things”, and equate Wisdom with Jesus: the correct translation, if I recall, is something like, “wisdom was established before all things”.

.
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How would they equate what is given a femine noun ,in scripture, to a male?
Carlan said:
I am talking to a JW.
Please give me all scripture which proves explicitly the mystery of the Father Son and Holy Spirit as Three Persons in one God.
Also do you have a simple analogy to give a Jehovah Witness? Thank you!
Peace, Carlan
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God knowing himself is the Son
God 's love of Him knowing is the Holy spirit.
 
Actually, the personified Wisdom of scripture, in Proverbs, Sirach, and Wisdom, is Jesus, seen by the Prophets, but not clearly, face to face. Cf. Sirach 1:5-8
 
Khalid,

According to Michael Servetus (and just to be on the record I DO NOT AGREE with Mr. Servetus), John 10: 30 only means Jesus and the Father were one in purpose not one in being. Again, I DO NOT AGREE with this interpetation.
 
AmbroseSJ said:
[bibledrb]1 John 5: 7 [/bibledrb]
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actually that quote is weak at best for it should read the spirit, the water, and the blood.
i can’t remeber the exact deatails but in a discusssion with oneness pentacostals i used this verse as you have it a more knowledgeable Catholic agreed with the oneness that this verse is in question.
 
fbl9 said:
actually that quote is weak at best for it should read the spirit, the water, and the blood.
i can’t remeber the exact deatails but in a discusssion with oneness pentacostals i used this verse as you have it a more knowledgeable Catholic agreed with the oneness that this verse is in question.
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Click on the Haydock Commentary link in the quote for more info. 😉
 
fbl9 said:
actually that quote is weak at best for it should read the spirit, the water, and the blood.
i can’t remeber the exact deatails but in a discusssion with oneness pentacostals i used this verse as you have it a more knowledgeable Catholic agreed with the oneness that this verse is in question.
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interesting after reading the Haydock link, the CCCD bible i have reads For there are three that bear witness [in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.8 and there are three that bear witness on earth:] the spirit and the water and the blood; and these three are one
note 3
According to the evidence of many manuscripts and the majority of commentators these verses should read: " For there are three that bear witness: the Spirit, and the water and the blood; and these three are one."
The Holy See to itself the right to pass finally on the origin of the present reading.
 
fbl9 said:
actually that quote is weak at best for it should read the spirit, the water, and the blood.
i can’t remeber the exact deatails but in a discusssion with oneness pentacostals i used this verse as you have it a more knowledgeable Catholic agreed with the oneness that this verse is in question.
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It, like the Pericope Adulterae, is a late addition to the Bible, from around the 8th century or 9th century AD, not an original.

My New World Translation has a marginal note on Jn 10:30 that does say “one in purpose”, but, in context, Jesus is obviously talking about consubstantiality. The Jews took this statement as blasphemy, and tried to kill him; saying he was one in purpose with the Father would not have been blasphemy, as virtually every prophet, etc. in the Bible was “at one purpose” with the Father. Only claiming to be equal to God, to arrogate the rights of God to himself, would have been considered blasphemy. (A smart JW will claim, “well, Jesus probably said “Yahweh” [for them, Jehovah], and this speaking of the name was the blasphemy”, but, Jesus said “abba”, not “YHWH”; he didn’t say, “I and the Lord” or “I and God” are one.)
 
Carlan said:
I am talking to a JW.
Please give me all scripture which proves explicitly the mystery of the Father Son and Holy Spirit as Three Persons in one God.
Also do you have a simple analogy to give a Jehovah Witness? Thank you!
Peace, Carlan
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It is going to be difficult to explain the RCC Trinity, since it was created by man, after the death of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

You see, the Trinity is Montanist, and was a created “New Prophecy”, as presented to it’s most ardent follower, Tertullian.

Tertullian became the best known defender of this Montanist New Prophecy and followed the creators, Montanus, Priscilla and Maximilla. They claimed to not be messengers of GOD, but, instead, became possessed by GOD…to prophecy…

Tertullian, thereby, introduced and defended the New Prophecy to the Roman Catholic Bishops Council. Prior to accepting the Trinity, the RCC had been following that of Arius. (This caused the Arian Controversy.)

Tertullian became the founder of Western theology. (Father of Latin Christianity). He was also the first to use the term “Trinity”.

The Trinity concept was adopted to change Our Lord Jesus Christ, to not just being divine and created by GOD, as his only begotten Son…but, since the Arian made Jesus less than His Father, GOD…Christ became the Montanist, 3 Persons, and One Substance…

At first, like all change, the RCC rejected Tertullian’s Trinity as heresy, but later…accepted it as Christian Orthodoxy, and made Creed (Correct Belief).

Ironically, when Montanus preached, (said to be in a frenzy!), he spoke in the first person, as GOD, " I am the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit!"
 
Sources? I’m a student of ecclesiatical history, and beyond some name-dropping, that post is loaded with factual errors.
 
Do a small study of your own on the word for ‘God’ in Genesis 1:1
" In the beginning, God …"
The word that the Holy Ghost inspires the writer to introduce us to Himself is “Elohim”’ and carries plurality. Intersting that is is not Yahweh ( or YHWH as the jews used to reverently distance themselves from uttering the word Jehovah )

However, arguement, discussion, tossing the ball back and forth will get you absolutely nowhere with your friend. A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

A very interesting picture emerges in the shades of meaning carried by the name Elohim, one at we in 21st century western culture cannot fully appreciate without much much reverential reflection. Maybe you should invite your friend into a cosy 2 person study of something like that where you agree to also drop your theological position and be open.
 
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