Scripture, Cut and Dry.

[NewPerspective]

In light of recent threads made either defending or arguing purgatorys validity, My question is: Wouldnt something as relevant and mandatory as purgatory be at least briefly described in Scripture? I understand that there are things that only God knows but why would something that is considered a mandate in order to enter the Kingdom of God at least be MENTIONED. And yes i have seen the Scriptural notation that “backs” the premise of purgatory, which i must be missing something (neither here nor there), but there is no clarity about it and I truly believe that the Word of God is not as complicated as its made by people. If it were the case I believe we would KNOW and not have to theorize and develop our own doctrinal premises. And as far as Mary, the vessel God used to incarnated Himself in Jesus Christ is concerned, i would think that if her role in our walk with the Lord was as paramount or even existent as its professed to be by the CC, wouldnt that be mentioned in Scripture? Give me a passage that identifies Mary as a all powerful intercessor that has better line of communication with the Father and someone who harbors more holiness than the next soled out follower of Christ. Yes she was important and still is to God, as we all are, but what relevance could a mere human, besides The Man Jesus Christ, have in our relationship with God and where does it teach the rosary as doctrinal fact? Help me out folks

 

[exoflare]

In light of recent threads made either defending or arguing purgatorys validity, My question is: Wouldnt something as relevant and mandatory as purgatory be at least briefly described in Scripture?

Why must it be?

 

[dosdog]

Purgatory
Purification necessary for heaven Heb 12:14; Rev 21:27
An intermediate state of purification Mt 5:26; Lk 12:58-59
Degrees of expiation of sins Lk 12:47-48
Can be aided by prayer 2Mac 12:45
Salvation; but only as through fire 1Cor 3:15
Temporary agony 1 Cor 3:15; Mt 5:25-26
Christ preached to spiritual beings 1 Pet 3:19
Nothing unclean shall enter heaven Rev 21:27
Sacrifice for the dead 2 Mac 12:43-46
A reality beyond the two realms of Heaven and Earth a place between or near 2 Cor 5:10; Rev; 5: 2;3 Rev; 5:23; Phil 2:10; Matt 18: 23-25 Luke 23:42
No forgiveness in this age nor in the age to come. Mt 12:32
“Extra” suffering. Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14

Mary
Foretold in OT Is 7:14; Mic 5:2-3
Conceived without sin Gen 3:15; Lk 1:28
A Virgin Is 7:14; Mt 1:18-25; Lk 1:27; 34
Maintained her virginity Typified in Ezek 44:2; Lk 1:34
Mother of God Is 9:6; Mt 1:23; Lk 1:32; 35; 43; 2:11; Gal 4:4
Highly blessed Lk 1:28; 48
Was to suffer many sorrow Lam 1:12; Lk 2:34-35; 48; Jn 19:25
Meditated on Jesus’ words Lk 2:51
Pondered events in Jesus’ life Lk 2:19
Requested Jesus’ first miracle Jn 2:1-12
Given to us as our mother Jn 19:25-27
Devoted herself to prayer Acts 1:14
Enoch and Elijah taken (assumed) to heaven. Gen 5:24; Heb 11:5; 2 Kings 2:1-13
Annunciation. Lk 1:28
Blessed are you among women. Lk 1:42-48
infpage.com/concordance/

John the Theologian, The Dormition of the Holy Theotokos
198.62.75.5/www1/ofm/san/TSmary1.html

Marriage Laws in the Biblical Talmud
cin.org/users/james/files/talmud.htm

Martin Luther, Founder of the Reform, Speaks on Mary
davidmacd.com/catholic/martin_luther_on_mary.htm
web.archive.org/web/20030810025622/ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ95.HTM

WHAT IS THE BASIS FOR BELIEF IN PURGATORY?
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/BASISPUR.HTM

 

[Tietjen]

In light of recent threads made either defending or arguing purgatorys validity, My question is: Wouldnt something as relevant and mandatory as purgatory be at least briefly described in Scripture? I understand that there are things that only God knows but why would something that is considered a mandate in order to enter the Kingdom of God at least be MENTIONED. And yes i have seen the Scriptural notation that “backs” the premise of purgatory, which i must be missing something (neither here nor there), but there is no clarity about it and I truly believe that the Word of God is not as complicated as its made by people. If it were the case I believe we would KNOW and not have to theorize and develop our own doctrinal premises. And as far as Mary, the vessel God used to incarnated Himself in Jesus Christ is concerned, i would think that if her role in our walk with the Lord was as paramount or even existent as its professed to be by the CC, wouldnt that be mentioned in Scripture? Give me a passage that identifies Mary as a all powerful intercessor that has better line of communication with the Father and someone who harbors more holiness than the next soled out follower of Christ. Yes she was important and still is to God, as we all are, but what relevance could a mere human, besides The Man Jesus Christ, have in our relationship with God and where does it teach the rosary as doctrinal fact? Help me out folks

 

[Zooey]

Purgatory
Purification necessary for heaven Heb 12:14; Rev 21:27
An intermediate state of purification Mt 5:26; Lk 12:58-59
Degrees of expiation of sins Lk 12:47-48
Can be aided by prayer 2Mac 12:45
Salvation; but only as through fire 1Cor 3:15
Temporary agony 1 Cor 3:15; Mt 5:25-26
Christ preached to spiritual beings 1 Pet 3:19
Nothing unclean shall enter heaven Rev 21:27
Sacrifice for the dead 2 Mac 12:43-46
A reality beyond the two realms of Heaven and Earth a place between or near 2 Cor 5:10; Rev; 5: 2;3 Rev; 5:23; Phil 2:10; Matt 18: 23-25 Luke 23:42
No forgiveness in this age nor in the age to come. Mt 12:32
“Extra” suffering. Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14

Mary
Foretold in OT Is 7:14; Mic 5:2-3
Conceived without sin Gen 3:15; Lk 1:28
A Virgin Is 7:14; Mt 1:18-25; Lk 1:27; 34
Maintained her virginity Typified in Ezek 44:2; Lk 1:34
Mother of God Is 9:6; Mt 1:23; Lk 1:32; 35; 43; 2:11; Gal 4:4
Highly blessed Lk 1:28; 48
Was to suffer many sorrow Lam 1:12; Lk 2:34-35; 48; Jn 19:25
Meditated on Jesus’ words Lk 2:51
Pondered events in Jesus’ life Lk 2:19
Requested Jesus’ first miracle Jn 2:1-12
Given to us as our mother Jn 19:25-27
Devoted herself to prayer Acts 1:14
Enoch and Elijah taken (assumed) to heaven. Gen 5:24; Heb 11:5; 2 Kings 2:1-13
Annunciation. Lk 1:28
Blessed are you among women. Lk 1:42-48
infpage.com/concordance/

John the Theologian, The Dormition of the Holy Theotokos
198.62.75.5/www1/ofm/san/TSmary1.html

Marriage Laws in the Biblical Talmud
cin.org/users/james/files/talmud.htm

Martin Luther, Founder of the Reform, Speaks on Mary
davidmacd.com/catholic/martin_luther_on_mary.htm
web.archive.org/web/20030810025622/ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ95.HTM

WHAT IS THE BASIS FOR BELIEF IN PURGATORY?
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/BASISPUR.HTM

 

[Tietjen]

In light of recent threads made either defending or arguing purgatorys validity, My question is: Wouldnt something as relevant and mandatory as purgatory be at least briefly described in Scripture? I understand that there are things that only God knows but why would something that is considered a mandate in order to enter the Kingdom of God at least be MENTIONED.

You’d think so, but even when things are absolutely stated as fact by Christ Himself three times consecutively, (in Scripture) many still deny them. Case in point, the Holy Eucharist. Incidentally, another poster has already posted verses that indicate purgatory and those that support Mary as being venerable so I’d only be repeating what has already been stated. God bless.

 

[bengal_fan]

scripture is pretty unclear on a lot of things:

what heaven will really be like

end times stuff (lots of speculation here)

Jesus’ childhood and basically the first 30 years of His life

etc.

there is no reason why scripture has to be assumed as being “cut and dry”. if it were, there would be no reason to argue about what scripture says. but there is. so how do we know who has the right interpretation? that is the key.

 

[angelusm]

You don’t have to say the rosary but it helps. Mary interceded when the wine finished at the wedding in Kana. She also asked the children in Fatima to say the rosary daily - this is the passage that identifies Mary as an intercessor. And I don’t care at all it’s not in the Scripture, I’m not protestant. The message of Fatima has been accepted by the CC and that is enough not to have any doubts. I feel sorry for protestants who either pretend nothing happenned there or say it was a satanic miracle.

 

[ncgolf]

St. Thomas Aquinas wrote the Summa Theologica … one of the greatest theology books ever written and towards the end of his life he was granted a vision of God. After the vision he wrote that all he has written is straw. He recognized that no written words can full describe or explain God.

Scripture is the method God used to reveal Himself to mankind. It cannot be the end all of what God may or may not reveal to each of us. What is important is to view Catholic doctrine with Scripture. In that sense the two will never contradict. While not fully explained to everyone’s satisfaction in Scripture, purgatory is not contradictory to anything in Scripture. This is key in viewing Catholic doctrine.

I am sure many people on this board have read Scripture and found themselves with thoughts and images on certain passages that opened their eyes to something they could not see before. That is the beauty of Scripture … that it is limitless … I think it is just the beginning.

 

[ralphinal]

Bengal, you have are one of my favorite posters. It is a matter of authority.

Why pick a topic not explicity described in scripture (your supposition, not mine) and ignore some that are, such as the Real Presence? As others have said, Jesus stated clearly enough times that they LEFT because they did not like it.

Why does purgatory bother you? Is it because it shows a glimpse of the boundless mercy of God? Is it because it is, to you, a tradition of men? What do you call your preacher? Do you have altar calls? Do you worship on Sunday and Wednesday night? Or do you feel that it is just you, Jesus, and the Bible? Careful on requiring everything to be in scripture…

 

[Jestocost]

Look at baptism. Few would agrue it’s importance, but they would argue almost everything else about it. Why doesn’t the bible cleary state what exactly you do in baptism? The real problem is that your trying to make scripture do the work of tradition and the magesterium in addition to it’s own job. It just isn’t equiped to do so.

 

[mozart-250]

One question that I have always had…

If you were to sit down and compare/contrast

• Catholic Purgatory
• Protestant Judgement Seat of Christ

What the differences would be.

I suspect they would be less than the argument is worth.

Just my hunch.

Anyway…carry on.

 

[Jamie_Patton]

In light of recent threads made either defending or arguing purgatorys validity, My question is: Wouldnt something as relevant and mandatory as purgatory be at least briefly described in Scripture? I understand that there are things that only God knows but why would something that is considered a mandate in order to enter the Kingdom of God at least be MENTIONED. And yes i have seen the Scriptural notation that “backs” the premise of purgatory, which i must be missing something (neither here nor there), but there is no clarity about it and I truly believe that the Word of God is not as complicated as its made by people. If it were the case I believe we would KNOW and not have to theorize and develop our own doctrinal premises. And as far as Mary, the vessel God used to incarnated Himself in Jesus Christ is concerned, i would think that if her role in our walk with the Lord was as paramount or even existent as its professed to be by the CC, wouldnt that be mentioned in Scripture? Give me a passage that identifies Mary as a all powerful intercessor that has better line of communication with the Father and someone who harbors more holiness than the next soled out follower of Christ. Yes she was important and still is to God, as we all are, but what relevance could a mere human, besides The Man Jesus Christ, have in our relationship with God and where does it teach the rosary as doctrinal fact? Help me out folks

I’m a Protestant who has been studying Catholicism and been in deep prayer about it and I can see the case for Purgatory very clearly in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. Read and study this. Pray about it and have an un-bias heart. I think it is a bit silly to think that the Bible is the only thing God left us for knowing him. Before there was ever a set Bible the Apostles and Preachers of the Good News would orally teach and that teaching would be handed down. I’m taking nothing away from the Bibles Authority but is it the only one? Jesus gave the Apostles Authority to teach and forgive sins, did he say only do this with the Bible? No because there was’nt a completed one.

What is the big deal with the Rosary? It’s just a way to meditate on God. Christianity exspresses its self in many ways. If it does’nt dishonor our God then who cares.

The whole theorizing and developing our own doctrinal premises issue is why we have so many different sects of Christianity. Churches who all have a history that begins with a man and his own interpretation and beliefs.

The Bible says in Luke 1:26-38 that Mary will be called blessed by all. I have no problem with the honoring of Mary. She played a huge role in our Salvation history but not The Role, that is Jesus.
Catholics would not pray to Mary for help or favor in any way but they would ask her to pray for them. If we are truley ALIVE in Christ after our earthly bodily deaths then they would’nt be praying to dead people. The Bible says we are given eternel life through Christ so if we are truley alive why can’t we ask Mary to pray for us. Looking back at her life and meditating on it can strengthen us. That does’nt take away from God. I do it with St. Paul and St. Patrick. Thinking back on their lifes journey and how God used them brings me closer to the Lord.

On The Journey Home,
JPatton

 

[Fidelis]

In light of recent threads made either defending or arguing purgatorys validity, My question is: Wouldnt something as relevant and mandatory as purgatory be at least briefly described in Scripture? …If it were the case I believe we would KNOW and not have to theorize and develop our own doctrinal premises…

Your premise is that if something is so important for us to know, why isn’t it more explicitly in Scripture?

You could ask yourself this same thing about Scripture itself. If Scripture is supposed to be our only authority, why isn’t THAT concept clearly taught within Scripture? What about the canon of Scripture? If, again, Scripture is supposed to be our only authority, why isn’t there a list of inspired books as part of the Scriptures?

The only possible answer is that God left his Church with an authoritative Magisterium (teaching office) to define what is unclear in Scripture. That Church is the Catholic Church.

 

[TMC]

My question is: Wouldnt something as relevant and mandatory as purgatory be at least briefly described in Scripture?

I guess maybe I don’t agree that it is so “relevant and mandatory.” In my view, everything about what happens after you die is unimportant. The relevant and mandatory stuff is the teachings on how to live up until that point. I figure God will take it from there. If we were wrong about things like purgatory we’ll all have a good laugh about it on the other side. Doesn’t change the way I live my life in the meantime.

 

[inthecloud]

On Purgatory, what is the issue of praying for the dead in the book of Maccabees, a thing that Jews are still doing even today, if you are going either to heaven or hell anyways. Of course that book might be missing from your Bible anyways.