"Scripture Interprets Scripture"?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Fidelis
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
F

Fidelis

Guest
Does this Protestant expression grate on others as much as it does me? Supposedly it means that when you are trying to interpret a certain passage of Scripture, you shouldn’t go outside the Scriptures to do so but, rather, find it’s meaning in another part of Scripture. By this you cut out any outside standard of authority (such as the Church) and even history, tradition and logic.

You hear this a lot from Protestants as an axiom of how Scripture should be interpreted, but it really seems meaningless. When this method is employed, doesn’t it simply boil down to the Protestant’s personal interpretation of both passages – the one in question and the one that theoretically “interprets” it?

How can those who espouse this approach possibly defend it? :confused:
 
Actually, the interpretation a Protestant comes up with is determined in part their tradition (small “t”). Each denomination has a particular tradition in which it originated, like the de-sacramentalizing of Penance, the symbolism of the Eucharist, salvation by faith, “independence” or Bible-only. When a Baptist reads of baptism in the NT, they automatically interpret it as being adult baptism. When a Methodist reads of the Church in scripture, they interpret it as the entire believing community.

They may use different parts of Scripture to allude to their interpretation, but not all of Scripture.

Another one of my favorites: “The main things are the plain things and the plain things are the main things.”
 
Does this Protestant expression grate on others as much as it does me? Supposedly it means that when you are trying to interpret a certain passage of Scripture, you shouldn’t go outside the Scriptures to do so but, rather, find it’s meaning in another part of Scripture. By this you cut out any outside standard of authority (such as the Church) and even history, tradition and logic.

You hear this a lot from Protestants as an axiom of how Scripture should be interpreted, but it really seems meaningless. When this method is employed, doesn’t it simply boil down to the Protestant’s personal interpretation of both passages – the one in question and the one that theoretically “interprets” it?
Catholic can let “Scripture interpret Scripture” and yet we come to radically different understandings, so there must be something more. 😛

I would actually argue Catholics do a better job of letting Scripture interpret Scripture and our arguments are much more Biblically and logically sound.
How can those who espouse this approach possibly defend it? :confused:
It, like many other Protestant one-liners, was never meant to be defended. It was meant mostly for shock value. When a Catholic mentions Tradition the Protestant can stun the Catholic silent…while at the same time appearing to be fully Biblically based while the Catholic teaching is entrenched in un-Biblical lies.
 
Actually Augustine set out the idea of Scripture being used to interpret Scripture.
I would accept without hesitation. The people have great personalities, and I feel that they have much to offer by way of preparing me for my future. We spoke of the potential possibility of the position becoming permanent, and traveling that may be required in the future. The hours would be from 8:00am - 4:30pm M-F. They needed to speak about me without my being present, but asked who they would contact if they wished to offer me a position. I admitted that I didn’t really have the answer, but suggested your office.
newadvent.org/fathers/12022.htm
 
Actually Augustine set out the idea of Scripture being used to interpret Scripture.
I would accept without hesitation. The people have great personalities, and I feel that they have much to offer by way of preparing me for my future. We spoke of the potential possibility of the position becoming permanent, and traveling that may be required in the future. The hours would be from 8:00am - 4:30pm M-F. They needed to speak about me without my being present, but asked who they would contact if they wished to offer me a position. I admitted that I didn’t really have the answer, but suggested your office.
HUH???
 
My error.
  1. In all these books those who fear God and are of a meek and pious disposition seek the will of God. And in pursuing this search the first rule to be observed is, as I said, to know these books, if not yet with the understanding, still to read them so as to commit them to memory, or at least so as not to remain wholly ignorant of them. Next, those matters that are plainly laid down in them, whether rules of life or rules of faith, are to be searched into more carefully and more diligently; and the more of these a man discovers, the more capacious does his understanding become. For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life,—to wit, hope and love, of which I have spoken in the previous book. After this, when we have made ourselves to a certain extent familiar with the language of Scripture, we may proceed to open up and investigate the obscure passages, and in doing so draw examples from the plainer expressions to throw light upon the more obscure, and use the evidence of passages about which there is no doubt to remove all hesitation in regard to the doubtful passages. And in this matter memory counts for a great deal; but if the memory be defective, no rules can supply the want.
newadvent.org/fathers/12022.htm
 
Part 1 of 3
40.png
Fidelis:
Does this Protestant expression grate on others as much as it does me?
Not only that but it is not even a logical approach to interpreting a complex system of knowledge from a written source.

The issue of the logical or philosophical approach to interpretation of any instructional text is one that is widely misunderstood especially amongst the Protestant clergy and laity.

The idea that clear scripture should be used to interpret obscure scripture is illogical. In other words interpreting the complex based on the simple is an incorrect approach to truly understanding a text. A text can be unclear for only three reasons, none of which leads to this required logical jump.

The first reasons I will address are the inherently religious ones. The reason I start here is two fold, first this is primarily a text aimed at the religious debate and secondly we find that this directive made by religious leaders in effect denies the divine inspiration of the scriptures.

The first reason a text might be unclear would be if it were wrong. This is certainly not the claim of those religious leaders who intend us to follow this method, and they would be quick to agree that if the text were in error it could not be divinely inspired. So this option can quickly be eliminated.

The second reason a text would be unclear, would be if the writing were done poorly such that the text as a whole were incomplete, inconsistent or even self contradictory. While this is possible with human texts one could not consider a divinely inspired text to be subject to this type of flaw. So this reason as well can quickly be rejected.

The last reason leads us to the logical problem of their approach and will lead us to the proper method of interpretation for any text. The third reason a text can be unclear is if the reader is not properly prepared to understand it. In this case the problem lies with the reader not with the text. In other words you may not understand a text explaining complex material if you do not properly understand the introductory text of the less complex material. This is the basis for the concept of prerequisites in any curriculum.

One may be asking how this disproves the idea of interpreting complex texts based on clearer texts. In fact some may feel that this approach actually supports the idea put forth by the Protestant clergy. However those who feel this way are mistaking study and learning for understanding and the ability to interpret. One is the process the other is a destination. One is merely the method to arrive at the other. Proper interpretation is not done by the student while they are learning. Proper interpretation is only done by the learned, those who have already been instructed in the discipline and have become expert in the field.

Perhaps an example will help. If we were to approach interpreting a quantum mechanics text based on our understanding of Newtonian mechanics we would be doomed to failure. Now this could be due to the poorly written text (of which many abound) but even with a properly written text the subject matter still could not be understood through this method. However, it is only once we understand quantum mechanics and other higher level subjects in physics that we find we truly understand simple Newtonian mechanics. In any discipline one truly understands any level material (even introductory) only after understanding more complex levels above it.

Within the approach of sola scriptura we have the novice interpreting the complex in light of the simple and in every other field of endeavor to understand a text or subject we have the experts interpreting the simple in terms of the complex. From this one sees that the proper method of interpretation is just the reverse of that practiced in the Protestant churches. Logically we are to interpret the clear portions of the texts based on the complex verses.

This of course takes interpretation out of the hands of the layman and places it back in the hands of the expert, in this case the clergy. Once again this is the exact opposite of the trend within and even the origins of the Protestant denominations. If one holds to the approach that, the student is entirely justified in doing their own interpretation; then we lay the blame, of lack of clarity, on the text and thus deny its divinity. To avoid this conclusion we must therefore admit the logic of the approach of expert interpretation which relies on a complete understanding that only comes from using our understanding of complex issues to illuminate the true subtleties of the simpler statements within the text.

End of Part 1
 
Part 2 of 3

I do not mean to imply that as babes we don’t learn by interpreting the easy first, then working our way up from milk to meat. But we must always be willing to re-evaluate our understanding of the verses we took as clear when we were babes in the faith, as we gain a deeper understanding merging more and more of the complex verses into our understanding.

Look for a moment at Matt 4:4 “4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” This verse clearly shows that man’s salvation depends on the whole word of God - the word of God includes guidelines for both faith and proper behavior (also see Luke 4:4) Man’s salvation depends on “every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God”, that means all of the Word of God, not just a few isolated verses to support one theory.

You must consider all verses and what they allude to. Protestants seem to want to find verses that plainly state something and interpret everything else in light of them. That to me is forcing the majority to conform to the minority.

Some might complain that by listening to what obscure verses allude would allow you to have things mean anything you want. But that is not the case as your choices must be made in light of all of the surrounding text. It is the consistency of the text that forces the allusions to their proper understanding regardless of what a seemingly clear verse may say on the surface.

There is a danger that one may (because we are human and err) try to force a preconceived notion on scripture – trying to have it prove what we already believe rather than listen to what it says. When we try this by applying what we desire to the complex verses then we find we will run across conflictions with what is there in the totality of the text. That conflict is what we use to determine what the proper interpretation of any verse is. But this does require us to know all of the text at once before we make our final decision as to what is the correct interpretation. Only when we have systematically interpreted all verses, such that no conflict arises, do we know we have properly interpreted all scripture. If someone goes back and says wait a minute this seemingly clear verse seems to be interpreted all out of whack, we say too bad! The consistency of the whole must be more important than the ease of reading one or two verses in isolation.

So ideally you should never attempt to interpret any verses from scripture until you can commit all of them to memory in such a way that you can recall them without effort. Of course this is impossible for most, if not all men. But that is why no verse is plain or simple even if it seems that way at first glance, and why a doctrine should never be based on one single verse. A doctrine to be properly formed must be able to accommodate any verse and provide an interpretation that is in agreement with any other interpretation used to understand even the simple, plain, literal appearing verses. Once again that means that the interpretations of the difficult verse drive our understanding and interpretation of even the verse that at first glance appear as if they can be taken literally.

End of Part 2
 
Part 3 of 3

Another example might make this clearer. Many Protestants try to prove that we only have to believe in Christ to do God’s will. They site: John 6:28-29

28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

…and on its own it seems to say just that - and only that. But it does not tell the whole story; a more complete understanding is had when one interprets John 6:28-29 in light of the other scriptures, specifically 1 John 3:23.

1 John 3:23
23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Now which verse do we believe? Is the simple verse missing the whole story or is the more complex verse adding unnecessarily to the story? Neither! Scripture never disagrees or contradicts itself, so it must be that the simple verse is true as far as it goes and the complex verse is also true, it is just revealing more, if not all of the requirements to do God’s will. Therefore, the less complete verse must be interpreted in light of the more complete version. So we see that God’s will is not that we only believe, but that we believe and love.

Protestants may claim that we must first understand that which is clear, and then through the power of God and prayer that which is harder to understand will be made clear. The Bible teaches us this as well. Unfortunately we see that that method doesn’t work for the vast majority of Christians as they all come up with radically different interpretations from the same spirit. Added to that there is no way to know when the spirit has directed you or when you have had some flash of inspiration on your own that was not guided and that this method is of man made design appearing nowhere in scripture leaves little to recommend its use.

So we see that scripture must be interpreted as a consistent whole. Complex verses which are not fully understood should not be forced into a system developed through a rudimentary understanding formed from the study of simple verses. The message of the Bible or any complex topic for that matter cannot be properly understood until all of the material, in this case scripture can be held in the mind at once and each verse compared to see what they say as a whole. That is why the individual is incapable of doing this without the guidance of the Church. Only through the history of the Church, the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Tradition of the Apostolic Fathers, and the ongoing research of the Doctors are we able to develop a cohesive understanding. It is just too big a job for one man in one lifetime. Most of us are more like the eunuch than we are to Phillip, we need someone to guide us. That someone was established by Christ and is the Church. That is why Jesus told Peter to feed His sheep and He never told the sheep to try to feed themselves.

End of Part 3
 
My error.
  1. In all these books those who fear God and are of a meek and pious disposition seek the will of God…
Thanks for the quote and for the great link. I’ll be sure to bookmark it for later.

What I hear Augustine saying here is that it is profitable to be familiar with Scripture as a whole (and even particular passages) in understanding what a particular passage before us might be saying – “drawing light” and “providing examples” are the words he uses. Most serious students of the Bible, Catholic and non-Catholic, would wholeheartedly agree.

However, I don’t think he was saying what the “Let Scripture interpret Scripture” folks are saying (in my experience) when they use that phrase. What I understand them to mean is something like this:
The interpretation of NT passage A is obscure or in dispute. It seems evident that the Sacred Writer was referring to a certain OT passage. So, having no need for the opinions of men, we turn to the OT passage (passage B), read what it says and say, “Well, this is what passage B seems to be saying, so it follows passage A must mean this.”
But do you see what this involves? In order to arrive at an interpretation for passage A, they had to make an interpretation of passage B. Thus, they end up putting their own interpretation on TWO verses. So, if anything, they could be in DOUBLE error.

Does that make sense?
 
Waht drives me up the wall is they use concordances, pick out words and run then through the entire OT and NT and start redefining a passage based on what something in Micah says about this word. That’s what I define as scripture defining scripture. It’s mostly nonsense obviously because you can’t assume same meanings across cultures, times and places like that, but its horridly hard to argue against, because they see all scripture to be of equal value.
 
When someone says “let Scripture Interpret Scripture” because the Holy Spirit will always give a correct interpretation, I think to myself “If this is true then why are there over 30,000 denominations of Protestant?” Either the Holy Spirit is schizophrenic or this just ain’t true. And each Church says that theirs is the correct interpretation - by whose authority do they say theirs is the correct one? By their Pastor? That is why the Magisterium of the Catholic Church is soooooo important. It is THE authority to interpret and teach Scripture.And is has been doing it since St. Peter.

Stillkickin 👍
 
Does this Protestant expression grate on others as much as it does me? Supposedly it means that when you are trying to interpret a certain passage of Scripture, you shouldn’t go outside the Scriptures to do so but, rather, find it’s meaning in another part of Scripture. By this you cut out any outside standard of authority (such as the Church) and even history, tradition and logic.

You hear this a lot from Protestants as an axiom of how Scripture should be interpreted, but it really seems meaningless. When this method is employed, doesn’t it simply boil down to the Protestant’s personal interpretation of both passages – the one in question and the one that theoretically “interprets” it?

How can those who espouse this approach possibly defend it? :confused:

I think Catholics are so obsessed with trying to rubbish anything Protestant that they can’t understand ideas such as that except in a way they find objectionable. 😦

It is, within limits - & most or all ideas have to be limited in some way, if they are not be nonsensical - a perfectly intelligent & useful rule of thumb. It won’t explain everything about the meaning of a passage - that is not its purpose.

To compare what James says about faith with what Paul says, is a large-scale example: by comparing the two, & putting them together, one gains a completer understanding of Christian faith than one would if either were ignored.

If it is alright for us to interpret Papal documents by one another, it is not clear why it is wrong for the Bible to be interpreted by a similar type of comparison of contents when Protestants read it.
 

I think Catholics are so obsessed with trying to rubbish anything Protestant that they can’t understand ideas such as that except in a way they find objectionable. 😦

I understand the idea perfectly, thank you, and I disagree with it. That is the whole point of the thread.
It is, within limits - & most or all ideas have to be limited in some way, if they are not be nonsensical - a perfectly intelligent & useful rule of thumb. It won’t explain everything about the meaning of a passage - that is not its purpose.

To compare what James says about faith with what Paul says, is a large-scale example: by comparing the two, & putting them together, one gains a completer understanding of Christian faith than one would if either were ignored.
You must have missed Post 10 where I addressed this. Try to keep up.
 
Not to bring down the party, but I just want to let you guys know that this thread seems to be somewhat proud. What I mean is that I look at this thread and not see much charity towards our Christian brothers and sisters. Instead of “making fun” of protestants, let us pray for them that they may respond to God’s call to come home. It would help if there was some productive dialogue with protestants on sola scriptura instead of talking behind their backs. Sorry for hijacking this thread. :o
 
Originally Posted by SyCarl
Actually Augustine set out the idea of Scripture being used to interpret Scripture.
Since Augustine was very much pro-Catholic Church authority when it came to the Gospels and elsewhere (read him quoted in CCC #119):But I would not believe in the Gospel, had not the authority of the Catholic Church already moved me.…his comment merely professes what the Church teaches on one of the methods to be used when interpreting Scripture:*Be especially attentive “to the content and unity of the whole Scripture.”*See CCC #112.

Just to clarify that is merely one mechanism for proper interpretation of Scripture, although you have to be sure it is taken as a whole…not just 2 passages or something whose interpretation might conflict elsewhere. 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top