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Richard_Kastner
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This is what Strongs Concordance says:
this g5124 τοῦτο touto
is g2076 ἐστί esti
my g3450 μου mou
body, g4983 σῶμα sōma
It’s all Greek to me.
- Status
this g5124 τοῦτο touto
is g2076 ἐστί esti
my g3450 μου mou
body, g4983 σῶμα sōma
It’s all Greek to me.
A
adrift
Guest
Why did so many not look upon the serpent? I find no reference in the Bible to this. The ones that looked upon the serpent were the ones that had been bitten in order to be cured. So I guess I could answer you that those who did not look were not bitten.
You lift out of a chapter nine words that do not convey all that Jesus said. He also said
If He had meant what you say He meant, they would not have left. There would have been no hard saying.
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Richard_Kastner
Guest
Matt 13:10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
34All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Matt 13 tells us that Jesus spoke in parables in order to weed out the ones that had no faith. It also says in v. 34 that without a parable spake he not unto them: In the first part of Jn. 6 Jesus feeds the multitude. Verse 11 tells us how He did this. 11And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would. The bread here is symbolic of the WORD OF GOD. When Jesus finished with the loaves and fishes He went across the sea and some of the multitude (disciples) followed. 26Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. Jesus rebukes the multitude because they come for a free meal instead of through faith.27Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. What is the meat that Jesus gives us that leads to eternal life?
Jn. 5:39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. The meat that leads to eternal life is THE WORD OF GOD.
This theme of faith in who He is and what He says is carried all through Jn. 6
28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. 30They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 34Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. 35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. The overriding theme in Jn 6 and in all the Gospels is faith in Jesus.
Jn 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever **believeth **in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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Richard_Kastner
Guest
53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Take verse 57 for instance. If the bread that Jesus talks about here is His literal body, then how are we suppose to live by a piece of bread? Wouldn’t it make more sense if you translate that into THE WORD OF GOD. Jn1:14 says “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us” Don’t these verses make more sense when you substitute WORD for flesh. v. 57 Except you eat the WORD you have no life in you. Whoso eats the WORD. Jesus will raise up the last day. For the WORD is meat indeed and the WORD is drink indeed. If you eat the WORD the WORD dwells in you and you in Him. If you eat Him the (WORD made flesh), so shall you abide (live) by Him.
Jesus in v. 63b tells us this is what He means “the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” And is confirmed by Peter in v. 68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
It is through the acceptance of the WORDS of Jesus that we are anointed (baptised) with the Holy Spirit.
1Jn2:24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
Jeramiah 31:33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Jn 14:23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Take verse 57 for instance. If the bread that Jesus talks about here is His literal body, then how are we suppose to live by a piece of bread? Wouldn’t it make more sense if you translate that into THE WORD OF GOD. Jn1:14 says “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us” Don’t these verses make more sense when you substitute WORD for flesh. v. 57 Except you eat the WORD you have no life in you. Whoso eats the WORD. Jesus will raise up the last day. For the WORD is meat indeed and the WORD is drink indeed. If you eat the WORD the WORD dwells in you and you in Him. If you eat Him the (WORD made flesh), so shall you abide (live) by Him.
Jesus in v. 63b tells us this is what He means “the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” And is confirmed by Peter in v. 68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
It is through the acceptance of the WORDS of Jesus that we are anointed (baptised) with the Holy Spirit.
1Jn2:24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
Jeramiah 31:33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Jn 14:23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
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peary
Guest
Well, this preacher went on and on about how works are too no avail (even though he his working his preaching for a purpose). He said that Jesus shed His blood for all sinners and all sins ‘from yesterday, today, and tomorrow’ (where do they get this stuff!) that one has , is , or will commit. Claiming, as usual, that ‘nothing but nothing’ can take away your Salvation as long as you believe Jesus died for our sins, Nothing more, nothing less!!! You can do any act even though you shouldn’t but your sin is forgiven you before you have even committed it.
Okay, I accept the that some of them want to believe that non-biblical garb. BUT, here’s the kicker. This preacher man continued on and literally stated that there is no way you can lose your Salvation, but if you ever became a Roman Catholic, a Whore of Babylon, you’re doomed to Hell.
I thought you couldn’t lose your Salvation. In his mind wouldn’t becoming Catholic just be a sin since catholics are taught that Jesus died for our sins. Well, I guess he can make an ‘exception to the rule’ because the preacher man is 100% in the Holy Spirit and nothing can leave his tongue that is not the True Word of God. Sounds alot like ‘infallability’ doesn’t it.
I just thought it was worth mentioning so some of us can see how some evangelicals really see the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church.
May God guide us always to thr truth.
jpaul1953
JP - he’s gonna have a big surprise ahead of him!
Okay, I accept the that some of them want to believe that non-biblical garb. BUT, here’s the kicker. This preacher man continued on and literally stated that there is no way you can lose your Salvation, but if you ever became a Roman Catholic, a Whore of Babylon, you’re doomed to Hell.
I thought you couldn’t lose your Salvation. In his mind wouldn’t becoming Catholic just be a sin since catholics are taught that Jesus died for our sins. Well, I guess he can make an ‘exception to the rule’ because the preacher man is 100% in the Holy Spirit and nothing can leave his tongue that is not the True Word of God. Sounds alot like ‘infallability’ doesn’t it.
I just thought it was worth mentioning so some of us can see how some evangelicals really see the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church.
May God guide us always to thr truth.
jpaul1953
JP - he’s gonna have a big surprise ahead of him!
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adrift
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Richard_Kastner
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adrift
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Richard_Kastner
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adrift
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Documentation? If that were the case, than why Jesus spoke in parables makes no sense. The Chapter makes a definite distinction between disciples and crowd. What you are saying is the crowd and disciples are one and the same.
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Richard_Kastner
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Are you kidding me? My last post was full of documentation. Who do you think the disciples were that walked no more with Him if not “the crowd.”
If you would stop and actually read the scriptures it makes perfect sense. He spoke in parables in order to weed out the unbelievers.
13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Yaaaa, thats exactly what I am saying. I don’t understand why you think it so important to distinguish between disciples and the crowd.
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adrift
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I did not see in anything you wrote that disciples were anyone that followed Jesus. That is what I wanted to see documented. You posted a great deal of scripture. I wondered why:shrug: It did not address that question.
I read the scriptures. The beginning is the miracle of the loaves. Jesus than talks of another miracle to come but it is to hard for them to understand or accept. They saw the miracle of the loaves but yet they could not trust in a greater miracle.
Because the scripture makes the difference between the two.The disciples and the crowd are NOT one and the same.
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Richard_Kastner
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dis⋅ci⋅ple /dɪˈsaɪpəl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [di-sahy-puhl] Show IPA noun, verb, -pled, -pling.
Use disciple in a Sentence
–noun 1. Religion. a. one of the 12 personal followers of Christ.
b. one of the 70 followers sent forth by Christ. Luke 10:1.
c. any other professed follower of Christ in His lifetime.
- any follower of Christ.
- (initial capital letter) a member of the Disciples of Christ.
- a person who is a pupil or an adherent of the doctrines of another; follower: a disciple of Freud.
I posted Matt 13 to show that Jesus** always **spoke in parables Matt 13:34All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: This included everything in Jn 6
I think the big misunderstanding is with what Jesus means by bread and wine. Maybe this will help
1 Cor.10:1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
14Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
15I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
16The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
Paul tells us not to be idolaters like some in the wilderness. He tells us to flee from idolatry. Then he says that he is talking as to wise men “judge ye what I say.” What he is saying here is be careful don’t fall down and worship something that is not the real macoy. And he is saying that what he says next is going to be harder to understand. Then he says in v. **16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? **
Ok, Paul tells us to judge what he says in v. 16 so lets do just that. He says **“The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ?” ** Notice he does not say that the cup we bless is the blood of Christ, but it is representative of our communion in that blood.
1Peter:18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
He is telling us that when we bless the cup we are once again placing in rememberance our** communion** with the saving blood of the Lamb of God Jesus Christ.
Then he says.** “The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?”**
Notice that he does not say that the bread is the body, but it is representative of our communion in the body of Christ. Well, what does this mean.
Rom.12:4For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
When we bless the cup we are putting in rememberance our membership in the body of Christ. Well what does it mean to be a member of the body of Christ. We are members of the body of Christ through communion of THE WORD OF GOD
Eph. 4:11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
When we eat the bread and drink the wine of communion we are bringing to mind our salvation through our communion with the shed blood of the Lamb of God and our communion one with the other through our faith in Jesus Christ,THE WORD OF GOD.
Jn.1:14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
I’m not sure what you mean by **“another miracle to come” **but in vs. 26-27 He rebukes the crowd for their unfaithfulness 26Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
That meat is His words.
Jn6:60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
I think these vs. say it all. Many of His disciples or followers who could not handle the idea of cannabalism that they percieved He was talking about walked no more with Him.
But we know in light of 1 Cor. 10 what He was talking about, don’t we?
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adrift
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I really wanted a definition from scripture.
Which dictionary did you get it from?
You quoted Matt 13. then you apply that to John taking it out of context
Matt 13
Jesus spoke in parables but not always. I could quote scripture but it would not prove anything. Note that he explains the parables to his disciples but not to the crowds.
Webster defined follower
b : one that follows the opinions or teachings of another c : one that imitates another
The crowds were not interested in the teachings but in the bread, signs and wonders. They were not true followers.
When it is said that some of the disciples followed Him no more. It is referring to those who adhered to Jesus’ teachings which the crowd did not.
Scripture often has layered meanings.
Jesus said
Which dictionary did you get it from?
You quoted Matt 13. then you apply that to John taking it out of context
Matt 13
Note that the question is why do you speak to THEM in parables. The them are not the disciples because Jesus tells them that the knowledge had been granted to YOU meaning the disciples.
Jesus spoke in parables but not always. I could quote scripture but it would not prove anything. Note that he explains the parables to his disciples but not to the crowds.
Webster defined follower
b : one that follows the opinions or teachings of another c : one that imitates another
The crowds were not interested in the teachings but in the bread, signs and wonders. They were not true followers.
When it is said that some of the disciples followed Him no more. It is referring to those who adhered to Jesus’ teachings which the crowd did not.
Scripture often has layered meanings.
The gift of His Body and Blood in the Eucharist.
If they perceived wrongly He would have explained and corrected it. He didn’t because they understood correctly. Jesus meant exactly what they understood. It is also why the early Christians were also accused of cannibalism. The early Christians also correctly understood what Jesus taught.
Couldn’t be planer. The Body and Blood of Jesus just as He promised.
Jesus said
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Richard_Kastner
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What diference does it make a disciple is a disciple.
On line.
Here’s what I posted of Matt 13. Seems fairly comprehensive and in context to me or are you saying that one part of the bible cannot be applied to another part. This would seem to contradict Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
34All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
All of them were disciples
Let me then Matt. 13:34All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
He explains the parable to the twelve because He knew their hearts. He didn’t explain to the disciples of the crowd because He also knew their heart Matt. 13:15For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
The second definition for disciple given above is 2. any follower of Christ. You are right they were not followers with true hearts, but followers non the less. By the way the first definition of follower is fol⋅low⋅er /ˈfɒloʊər/ [fol-oh-er]
–noun 1. a person or thing that follows.
What’s the difference if those who refer to Jesus teachings walked no more with Him or the crowd walked no more with Him. The point is that these disciples walked no more with Him. Therefore they were no longer disciples.
Yes it does.
Well, it was the gift of His body and blood, but it wasn’t what you would call the eucharist.
continued:
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Richard_Kastner
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continuance:
I think the big misunderstanding is with what Jesus means by bread and wine. Maybe this will help
1 Cor.10:1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
14Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
15I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
16The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
Paul tells us not to be idolaters like some in the wilderness. He tells us to flee from idolatry. Then he says that he is talking as to wise men “judge ye what I say.” What he is saying here is be careful don’t fall down and worship something that is not the real macoy. And he is saying that what he says next is going to be harder to understand. Then he says in v. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
Ok, Paul tells us to judge what he says in v. 16 so lets do just that. He says “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ?” Notice he does not say that the cup we bless is the blood of Christ, but it is representative of our communion in that blood.
1Peter:18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
He is telling us that when we bless the cup we are once again placing in rememberance our communion with the saving blood of the Lamb of God Jesus Christ.
Then he says. “The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?”
Notice that he does not say that the bread is the body, but it is representative of our communion in the body of Christ. Well, what does this mean.
Rom.12:4For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
When we bless the cup we are putting in rememberance our membership in the body of Christ. Well what does it mean to be a member of the body of Christ. We are members of the body of Christ through communion of THE WORD OF GOD
Eph. 4:11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
When we eat the bread and drink the wine of communion we are bringing to mind our salvation through our communion with the shed blood of the Lamb of God and our communion one with the other through our faith in Jesus Christ,THE WORD OF GOD.
Jn.1:14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
According to Matt 13 He wouldn’t because **“this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.” **
They didn’t understand at all because Jesus tells the disciples what He meant in v. 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. And Peter confirms in v. 68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
In answer to this let me post what I posted for 1 Cor.10 I think it is really quite good you really should read it.
I think the big misunderstanding is with what Jesus means by bread and wine. Maybe this will help
1 Cor.10:1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
14Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
15I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
16The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
Paul tells us not to be idolaters like some in the wilderness. He tells us to flee from idolatry. Then he says that he is talking as to wise men “judge ye what I say.” What he is saying here is be careful don’t fall down and worship something that is not the real macoy. And he is saying that what he says next is going to be harder to understand. Then he says in v. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
Ok, Paul tells us to judge what he says in v. 16 so lets do just that. He says “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ?” Notice he does not say that the cup we bless is the blood of Christ, but it is representative of our communion in that blood.
1Peter:18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
He is telling us that when we bless the cup we are once again placing in rememberance our communion with the saving blood of the Lamb of God Jesus Christ.
Then he says. “The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?”
Notice that he does not say that the bread is the body, but it is representative of our communion in the body of Christ. Well, what does this mean.
Rom.12:4For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
When we bless the cup we are putting in rememberance our membership in the body of Christ. Well what does it mean to be a member of the body of Christ. We are members of the body of Christ through communion of THE WORD OF GOD
Eph. 4:11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
When we eat the bread and drink the wine of communion we are bringing to mind our salvation through our communion with the shed blood of the Lamb of God and our communion one with the other through our faith in Jesus Christ,THE WORD OF GOD.
Jn.1:14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
A
adrift
Guest
Since we are discussing scripture I find it odd that you do not see an obvious difference.
I never doubted that it was on line. I just wanted to know how what qualifications the source had.
:bigyikes: You aren’t serious:hypno: Isaiah is taken WAAAAY out of context.
There is no such thing as disciples of the crowd. The crowds were not disciples and if you go to a credible source for a definition like Webster
you can see that the crowd could never be consider a disciple.:nope:
It is the WHY they no longer could believe in Jesus that is the crux. They walked no more because they understood rightly what Jesus said and Jesus did not say they were wrong in what they believed. Jesus said what He meant and meant what He said.
A
adrift
Guest
Not according to Matthew but according to a misapplication of scripture.
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Jesus has just revealed a divine miracle, although still hidden, of which only the Spirit can supply understanding and which will bring life to all the people.
From Christ in the Eucharist
You have already quoted this scripture and it was answered in 172. In fact this answer is a little:juggle: Go back and read the post you will see you are answering my post that quotes 1 Cor: by reposting 1 Cor. a little like chasing ones own tail.
This site has a tract that explains it well. You should read it.
Christ in the Eucharist
R
Richard_Kastner
Guest
7But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
8For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.
9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isaiah is here talking about the priests and prophets of Israel who have given themselves over to drunkenness and how they are unfit to teach doctrine. Then he tells us how we are to teach doctrine. In v. 9 he tells us who we are to teach doctrine to. Those weaned from milk.
The idea of milk as being the teaching of easier doctrines is brought out by Paul in 1Cor. 3:1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
And in Hebrews 12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe also by Peter. 1Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
Then Isaiah gives us v. 10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
which tells us how we are to teach THE WORD OF GOD.
So I must ask how is this out of context?
Jn6:61When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
These are the same people that Jesus is talking to in vs. 24-27
24When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus.
25And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
26Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
You will notice IN VS. 24-27 that His “disciples” and “the people” are two different entities. In vs. 62-66 these “people” become disciples who “believe not.”
So, you do acknowledge that the crowd are disciples.
R
Richard_Kastner
Guest
Here is the original exchange:
Quote:Adrift
If they perceived wrongly He would have explained and corrected it.
According to Matt 13 He wouldn’t because “this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”
Please explain how this is a misapplication of scripture.
This is the misapplication of scripture.
So, I guess I,m now answering bishop Brom as well as you. I guess that’s ok.
Here are the vs. Brom is referencing. Jn. 6: 53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Now I’m assuming that bishop Brom is a learned man, because you don’t get to be a bishop without a whole bunch of schooling. So, the fact that he confuses the two definitions for flesh that are applied here is probably less a matter of ignorance than intentional.
Jesus is obviously talking about a different flesh in v. 53 than in v. 63 The flesh He is talking about in v. 63 is the flesh of the world. Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
The flesh He is talking about in v. 63 is THE WORD OF GOD. This is brought out beautifully in 1 Cor 2:12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Jn1:14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
I would agree with this. So, why does he cloud the issue with his statement above?
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