Scripture seems to suggest only the Apostles could pass on gifts by laying on of hands

[inkaneer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
Are you offering these as infallible doctrinal statements or just prayers made up by fallible men? Scripture states emphatically that Peter asked for someone to take over the office [episkope] vacated by Judas. There are only three offices in the church and they are Bishop, Priest and Deacon. There is no office in the Church of Apostle.

Really?

Quote:
And praying, they said: Thou, Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, To take the place of this ministry and apostleship [Greek Apostoles], from which Judas hath by transgression fallen, that he might go to his own place.

Acts 1:24-25.

Well then if Matthias replaced Judas as an Apostle then you have the biblical precedent of one apostle succeeding another. If that is the case then maybe you can tell us which apostle succeeded Peter because the Church says that no apostle succeeded Peter or Andrew, Thomas the James, John or the others. Judas was a failure as an Apostle. He had no authority to forgive sin. He had no authority to consecrate the Eucharist. Matthias did not succeed him to the Apostolship that was intended for him as Peter states, “his house is desolate and no one resides therein.” There is no Apostlolic Succession from Judas. Matthias cannot take over what is not there. Matthias was elected to be a bishop and as a bishop he had the authority of the other Apostles and he did missionary work so he was sent but he was sent by the apostles [or the Church] and not by Christ. He is an apostle therefore in the generic sense as all missionaries are today. But he is not an Apostle in the specific sense as one sent by Christ as was Paul and the eleven. There were only twelve Apostles chosen and sent by Christ just as the Church teaches. But Matthias is not one of them.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Well then if Matthias replaced Judas as an Apostle then you have the biblical precedent of one apostle succeeding another.

That view personalizes the role of the Twelve, leading to a flawed conclusion.

Christ established the Twelve and gave them a distinct role, jointly as a whole.

It is true that the role of Apostle, individually, would not be passed to a successor, per se, yet this was a unique case. Judas did not remain faithful, die, then “need” to be “replaced”. Christ knew that one would betray him. Your argument speculates that the vacancy among the Twelve would remain forever, most especially in the Apostlic age for which the role of the Twelve was created and intended, and further that it was Christ’s intent to leave the Church entrusted to the remaining eleven.

The remaining of the Twelve selected someone from the broader group of known Apostles (which is also denied in this theory) in order to restore the unity of the Twelve, not to appoint a successor for Judas individually.

The contrary view also denies the role of Peter, who understood the role of the Twelve and led the remaining eleven in seeking the wisdom of the Holy Spirit on this matter.

But he is not an Apostle in the specific sense as one sent by Christ as was Paul and the eleven.

There were indeed more witnesses to the Resurrection that were called Apostle, yet did not hold the same place as those counted among the Twelve. They were equally instrumental in establishing the Church in the known world.

Matthias was among these “lesser” Apostles, and he was selected to be counted among the Twelve, as Scripture most clearly states. This is also rejected by this theory.

There were only twelve Apostles chosen and sent by Christ just as the Church teaches. But Matthias is not one of them.

This statement argues against its own theory - Judas Iscariot was sent?

Again, Scripture clearly indicates otherwise …

As does Sacred Tradition …

On his feast day according to the Eastern Calendar, today his memory will be honored accordingly - Matthias, Apostle, counted among the Twelve. It is biblical fact.

 

[inkaneer]

None of these metal wheelsets are being made specifically for the purpose of replacing other wheelsets. They are all being made by companies producing rolling stock for sale, so selling them separately just enables the Mfg to hopefully cut costs a bit by economy of scale.

That view personalizes the role of the Twelve, leading to a flawed conclusion.

Christ established the Twelve and gave them a distinct role, jointly as a whole.

It is true that the role of Apostle, individually, would not be passed to a successor, per se, yet this was a unique case. Judas did not remain faithful, die, then “need” to be “replaced”. Christ knew that one would betray him. Your argument speculates that the vacancy among the Twelve would remain forever, most especially in the Apostlic age for which the role of the Twelve was created and intended, and further that it was Christ’s intent to leave the Church entrusted to the remaining eleven.

The remaining of the Twelve selected someone from the broader group of known Apostles (which is also denied in this theory) in order to restore the unity of the Twelve, not to appoint a successor for Judas individually.

The contrary view also denies the role of Peter, who understood the role of the Twelve and led the remaining eleven in seeking the wisdom of the Holy Spirit on this matter.

Nice opinion but where is the biblical proof? You insist on blurring the distinction between The Apostles, the ones chosen by Christ [including Paul] and those other disciples who followed Christ or followed The Apostles. All of Christendom teaches that there were only Twelve Apostles. And by doing so limit the college of Apostles to those called by and sent by Christ. Judas was called but never sent by Christ. Matthias was neither called nor sent by Christ. Paul was both called and sent by Christ.

As tho the “flawed conclusion”, the church has always looked to the passage beginning in Acts 1:20 as the scriptural evidence of the Apostolic Succession of bishops from the Apostles. Is that your idea of a “flawed conclusion”?

There were indeed more witnesses to the Resurrection that were called Apostle, yet did not hold the same place as those counted among the Twelve. They were equally instrumental in establishing the Church in the known world.

Matthias was among these “lesser” Apostles, and he was selected to be counted among the Twelve, as Scripture most clearly states. This is also rejected by this theory.

Scripture says he was only counted among the eleven. If he was truly an Apostle then
scrioture should say He was counted among the twelve. But he wasn’t. After Matthias election there were still only eleven apostles until the twelfth was selected by Christ and that was Paul.

On his feast day according to the Eastern Calendar, today his memory will be honored accordingly - Matthias, Apostle, counted among the Twelve. It is biblical fact.

The Eastern calendar is hardly a doctrinal statement and is incorrect. Take a good look at what scripture actually says and not what you think it says. Matthias is never called an apostle. He was selected to fill the office of bishop vacated by Judas. He was the first bishop, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

http://www.standrewsfulham.com/saints/images/stmatthias.jpg

 

[edward_george]

Has the argument about how many Apostles there are really gone on for 5 pages?

-ACEGC

 

[SonCatcher]

Has the argument about how many Apostles there are really gone on for 5 pages?

-ACEGC

Strangely so; yet nobody has even bothered to ask the question about any time beyond the first century.

According to Wikipedia, there were about 5,100 in 2009.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Has the argument about how many Apostles there are really gone on for 5 pages?

Perhaps you could enlighten us?

Strangely so; yet nobody has even bothered to ask the question about any time beyond the first century.

According to Wikipedia, there were about 5,100 in 2009.

So that’s your [Wikipedia] answer?

Also according to Wikipedia (entry for Apostolic Succession):

Bishops are seen not as succeeding to the apostolic office itself and being themselves apostles, but instead as succeeding to the pastoral care of the Christian community founded by the apostles.