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twinc
Guest
If you were consciously listing the three above would you list them in this order or some other order and why ? - twinc
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JRKH
Guest
I assume you mean in order of teaching authority
The order would be
Magisterium -
Scripture/Tradition
The Magisterium of the Church is the Teaching authority and provides the proper understanding of the other two which are, when properly understood, part of the magisterium as well.
The magisterium provides the “court of appeal” when we have disagreements over how to interpret and understand scripture and tradition.
Peace
James
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twinc
Guest
where do you get your authority from to say this - twinc
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JRKH
Guest
I don’t understand your question
I am expressing no “authority” nor do I seek it.
I seek only to be a follower of Christ in humility.
I take no authority myself in this. As to how I arrived at my answer, I simply look at the teachings of Christ, The bible, History and the development of the Church etc, and this is the inevitable conclusion.
Peace
James
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twinc
Guest
to be certain where should you get your answer from - twincI don’t understand your question
I am expressing no “authority” nor do I seek it.
I seek only to be a follower of Christ in humility.
I take no authority myself in this. As to how I arrived at my answer, I simply look at the teachings of Christ, The bible, History and the development of the Church etc, and this is the inevitable conclusion.
Peace
James
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JRKH
Guest
From a properly formed conscience. Aconscience formed in humility and obedience to Christ.
Do you have a specific issue you are trying to deal with??
Peace
James
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tee_eff_em
Guest
Two answers (at least) depending on what you are asking:
*]The Magisterium existed before Tradition existed before (NT) Scripture.
*]You are sitting on a 3-legged stool – Which of the legs is most essential to your support?
If neither of these answers your question, perhaps you could elaborate?
tee
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djeter
Guest
This is a little something I wrote for a seminary class I was taking. If you have any comments I welcome them.
A teaser:
"Having recalled that the word of God is present in both Scripture and Tradition, the Constitution Dei Verbum of the Second Vatican Council has stated emphatically: “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture comprise a single sacred deposit of the word of God entrusted to the Church. Embracing this deposit and united with their pastors, the People of God remain always faithful to the teaching of the Apostles” (Dei Verbum, Ch2 10).
Scripture, therefore, is not the Church’s sole point of reference and, as John Paul II pointed out in Fides Et Ratio, this is the kind of assertion we find in Biblicism or Christian fundamentalism. Rather the “supreme rule of our Catholic faith” derives from the unity which the Spirit has created between Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church in a reciprocity which means that none of the three can survive without the two others."
Lots of good source quotes, hopefully worth your effort.
You can find it here:
payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/07/23/understanding-the-magisterium/
dj
A teaser:
"Having recalled that the word of God is present in both Scripture and Tradition, the Constitution Dei Verbum of the Second Vatican Council has stated emphatically: “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture comprise a single sacred deposit of the word of God entrusted to the Church. Embracing this deposit and united with their pastors, the People of God remain always faithful to the teaching of the Apostles” (Dei Verbum, Ch2 10).
Scripture, therefore, is not the Church’s sole point of reference and, as John Paul II pointed out in Fides Et Ratio, this is the kind of assertion we find in Biblicism or Christian fundamentalism. Rather the “supreme rule of our Catholic faith” derives from the unity which the Spirit has created between Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church in a reciprocity which means that none of the three can survive without the two others."
Lots of good source quotes, hopefully worth your effort.
You can find it here:
payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/07/23/understanding-the-magisterium/
dj
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AmericanJosiah
Guest
One Catholic (a teacher in our school) said it should just be “The Church.” Makes sense to me…
WHAT “Tradition?” It’s whatever The Catholic Church defines as such, whatever it chooses as such, as it interprets. It is whatever it says it is and means whatever it says it means.
WHAT “Scripture?” Not on any page or in any tome, knowable to all, but rather “in the heart” of The Catholic Church as interpreted by The Catholic Church (CCC 85, 113)
WHAT “Magisterium?” The leadership of The Catholic Church as defined by and appointed by The Catholic Church among clergy of The Catholic Church pledged to uphold the teachings of The Catholic Church.
Just 3 ways of saying, “The Catholic Church?” The teacher thought so. “The Authority for The Catholic Church IS The Catholic Church.”
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thistle
Guest
CCC 95 “It is clear therefore that, in the supremely wise arrangement of God, Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the others. Working together, each in its own way, under the action of the one Holy Spirit, they all contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.”
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kepha1
Guest
2 Timothy 3
14 But abide thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, (TRADITION) knowing of whom thou hast learned them. (MAGISTERIUM)
15 And that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings (SCRIPTURE) which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness. 17 That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.
Thus, St. Paul gives the “order” that twinc is looking for, although they are not viewed in a priority format, but all working in harmony with each other.
Notice that scripture is not listed first. Tradition always preceeds scripture. Notice that only in light of ALL THREE of these that the man of God is “fully equipped for every good work.” Notice sola scripurists only quote 2 Tim 3:16, they NEVER include the context of verses 14 and 15. Why? Because those verses demolish the man made doctrine of sola scriptura. Where in the Bible is the “man of God” an individual bible reader? NOWHERE! Anyplace in the Bible where “man of God” is used, it refers to one called directly by God (followed by signs and wonders) or one who is properly ordained.
14 But abide thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, (TRADITION) knowing of whom thou hast learned them. (MAGISTERIUM)
15 And that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings (SCRIPTURE) which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness. 17 That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.
Thus, St. Paul gives the “order” that twinc is looking for, although they are not viewed in a priority format, but all working in harmony with each other.
Notice that scripture is not listed first. Tradition always preceeds scripture. Notice that only in light of ALL THREE of these that the man of God is “fully equipped for every good work.” Notice sola scripurists only quote 2 Tim 3:16, they NEVER include the context of verses 14 and 15. Why? Because those verses demolish the man made doctrine of sola scriptura. Where in the Bible is the “man of God” an individual bible reader? NOWHERE! Anyplace in the Bible where “man of God” is used, it refers to one called directly by God (followed by signs and wonders) or one who is properly ordained.
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AmericanJosiah
Guest
2 Timothy 3
14 But abide thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, (WHAT THE APOSTLES TAUGHT, NOT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ) knowing of whom thou hast learned them. (THE APOSTLES - NOT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH)
15 And that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings (SCRIPTURE) which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness. 17 That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.
Notice:
14 But abide thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, (WHAT THE APOSTLES TAUGHT, NOT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ) knowing of whom thou hast learned them. (THE APOSTLES - NOT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH)
15 And that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings (SCRIPTURE) which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness. 17 That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.
Notice:
- NO mention WHATSOEVER of The Catholic Church or the Tradition thereof or the Magisterium thereof. NOTHING.
- NO mention of The Catholic Church being infallible, unaccountable, incapable of error in doctrine, exempt from norming.
- NO mention that whatever The Catholic Church uniquely teaches is just to be accepted as correct cuz it just is.
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twinc
Guest
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kepha1
Guest
You are correct, twinc, but the Jews had a magisterium that predates the Catholic Church as we know it. Jesus called it “the seat of Moses”, (Matthew 23:2) a term that is not found anywhere in the Old Testament. It was a Tradition that Jesus recognized, and he transfered this authoritive seat held by appointed teachers to Peter. He can do that because he is God.
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steve711
Guest
The Apostles were Catholic men who founded the church.
As far as the order;
I truly believe Tradition first, Magisterial secondly, and then Scripture.
Tradition: This is the beginning of Jesus Christs Church which he started and has continued through the Apostles till modern day. Is it perfect, no, but the Catholic church has done well to maintain it the best that they can.
Magisterial: The church will always need to be ready to teach and interpret scripture as needed.
Scripture: The OT was written by the Prophets or for the Prophets so that man could understand Gods law and ways. The NT was the life of Jesus Christ our Saviour, but as it is said multiple times in the NT, many things our Saviour did while on earth were not written about.
But as was said before, they all work together.
Go with Gods Grace!
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twinc
Guest
if it were a three legged stool it would not know if it was coming or going and it would sometimes go forward,sometimes backwards,sometimes sideways - mostly no where at all but just stuck in one place and static - twinc
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juliamajor
Guest
Whether acknowledged or not there is tradition-it makes me laugh when folks grumble about it.Sole Fide is not my tradition-it is your tradition.When you read scripture via interpretating with Sola Fide or sola Scriptura on your mind you are interpretating thru your tradition.The way one celebrates a service -is a tradition-what song are used- is a tradition.Tradition is a way to keep in touch from the past you come to aid you in the future to come.
Tradition runs in families ,nations societies-do you think it stopped at the door of your church?where that tradition comes from is the important part. Judaic belief is that their tradition to interpret scripture comes from God.Why not complain to the local synagogue then that tradition is naughty? Jesus and the apostles, being Jews, would have accepted as a truism that the interpretating scripture is aided by tradition.
Tradition runs in families ,nations societies-do you think it stopped at the door of your church?where that tradition comes from is the important part. Judaic belief is that their tradition to interpret scripture comes from God.Why not complain to the local synagogue then that tradition is naughty? Jesus and the apostles, being Jews, would have accepted as a truism that the interpretating scripture is aided by tradition.
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tee_eff_em
Guest
Huh – I thought the stool was just supporting you, I didn’t think it was *going *anywhere…
At least: That is the way it was in the analogy I proposed
So: Which leg is most essential to your support (ie most prevents you from going down?)
tee
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