Scripture verses JWs have problems with?

[T_More]

If these are the books that the church has chosen then why do they not follow the very books that you say they approved? Why include a cannon of books that contradict church teachings? Why did the church forbid the reading of the Bible in the past?

**Show in the bible what contradicts Church teachings. While you’re at it, show how Jesus is Michael the Archangel, or that the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation is a literal number. And BTW, the Church NEVER forbid the reading of the bible, only the reading of mistranslated bibles. Who has the authority to interpret the bible, twinkle? The one who decided what was to be included in the canon? Or a group that came along almost 1900 years later? The WTBS has no connection to the early Christians, and was never given the authority to teach the Gospel. **

For Clarity 1 Tim. 3:15 says:
“if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.”

This is what you have given emphasis to.

The emphasis is on THE church. This would be the same one that Christ spoke about in Matthew 16 and Matthew 18, yes? So which one is that twinkle?

Let’s look a little deeper.

“pillar and foundation”

What do these words mean:

pillar-

1)a firm upright support for a superstructure

2)a supporting, integral, or upstanding member or part

foundation-

1. an established organization or institution
2. an underlying base or support
3. a body or ground upon which something is built up or overlaid

Notice it says the house of God is a pillar and foundation “of” truth not “is” truth.

So God’s congregation of people are supporters “of” truth.

Jesus said God’s word "is" truth. John 17:17

The Word is Christ. See John 1. The authority he bestowed upon Peter and the Apostles is the authority, not the bible. So where did this church go that Christ promised to endure forever in Matthew 16, would be guided into all truth in John 16:13, and promised to be with His disciples until the end of time in Matthew 28, and being with ALL generations that Paul spoke about in Ephesians 3:21?

Therefore, Gods household as an established organization support and uphold the truths that God’s word teaches.

The Church produced the bible, not the other way around. Again, the Word is Christ Himself. Christ taught His Apostles the same way that the Apostles taught others, orally. The Gospel spread rapidly because they were teaching by word of mouth, not by printing bibles by the thousands. It was very expensive to produce bibles, not to mention painstaking. Don’t you think God knew this? The bible did not get dropped out of heaven, leather bound in gold gilding. It was not agreed upon what was to make up the canon until the end of the 4th century. In the meantime, the Gospel spread like wildfire. How do you think that happened? Hint: It wasn’t by going door to door and handing out Watchtowers.

 

[PRmerger]

Publisher:
No…I believe God can work His will no matter what faith tradition one believes in…by “Seed” I meant that perhaps I could plant a “Seed” in them that causes them to question their position that THEY ALONE (Jehovah’s Witnesses) are the only ones faithful to God…I have only met one Witness…the woman I mentioned…who displayed any real joy in their faith and embraced those of other faith traditions as “brothers and sisters”.

I understand.

Do you think that their beliefs are false, then?

That is, do you believe these JW beliefs are false:

• that they are the only ones who are faithful to God
• that Jesus is the Archangel Michael
• that only 144,000 will enter heaven
• saluting the flag is idolatry

 

[PRmerger]

If these are the books that the church has chosen then why do they not follow the very books that you say they approved? Why include a cannon of books that contradict church teachings?

Could you please be specific, twinkle, and give a teaching that you believe contradicts the Bible? Please cite your source from a document written by the Magisterium.

You may want to search these sites:

The Catechism
Papal Encyclicals
The Vatican website.

Thanks!

 

[PRmerger]

Why did the church forbid the reading of the Bible in the past?

Do you have a source for this, too, twinkle?

Notice it says the house of God is a pillar and foundation “of” truth not “is” truth.

Amen! You are quite consonant with Catholic teaching here, twinkle!

So God’s congregation of people are supporters “of” truth.

Indeed.

Jesus said God’s word "is" truth. John 17:17

Yes.

Therefore, Gods household as an established organization support and uphold the truths that God’s word teaches.

This is very Catholic of you to say, then.

 

[mwok]

I had a discussion with a JW and found that reason(or lack thereof) was a stumbling block for me. The discussion was supposed to be the JW showing me that the Catholic Church taught that I must celebrate birthdays and that the Bible condemned the practice. I said show me the ecumenical council first that says I must celebrate birthdays then we can get into why the Bible condemns it.

We went straight to the Bible and what followed blew my mind. I was shown Pharoahs birthday celebration where the baker is executed, then to Harods birthday where John the Baptist was beheaded. My thoughts were “OK, I still don’t see where the author has said ‘thus birthday celebrations are of the devil’”. I was told “well, because something bad happened on that day so clearly the Bible is warning us not to participate in birthday celebrations”. I replied “Because something bad happened?! Then don’t drive your car, because people are killed everyday in auto accidents!” I was told then “Well, I can’t live without my car so clearly that’s not what the Bible is saying” and on and on it went.

Blew my mind!:banghead:

 

[NetStar]

Do JWs come knocking on Sundays, too? Just wondering when I should expect them to return.

If you want them to come knocking, the just write to or call the local Kingdom Hall in or near your town. I promise you they will show up.

If you try to give them any Catholic pamplets they won’t take them. It’s not allowed. One time I got some information off the internet and gave to them. They did take that, because it didn’t come from a Catholic Website…so they thought anyway, I had truely “cut and past it” so it didn’t show it was from a Catholic Website. So the ladies took it. It was full of “truths” and I pray a seed was planted.

 

[mwok]

They also come the day before a Holiday to try to persuade you not to observe the tradition. Came to my door the Saturday before Easter telling me how pagan all Holidays were.

 

[PRmerger]

They also come the day before a Holiday to try to persuade you not to observe the tradition. Came to my door the Saturday before Easter telling me how pagan all Holidays were.

What about evenings?

When the 2 JW ladies came it was on a weekday afternoon…just wondering when to expect them next.

It’s been a while. (At least 2 weeks maybe?)

 

[PRmerger]

I had a discussion with a JW and found that reason(or lack thereof) was a stumbling block for me. The discussion was supposed to be the JW showing me that the Catholic Church taught that I must celebrate birthdays and that the Bible condemned the practice. I said show me the ecumenical council first that says I must celebrate birthdays then we can get into why the Bible condemns it.

We went straight to the Bible and what followed blew my mind. I was shown Pharoahs birthday celebration where the baker is executed, then to Harods birthday where John the Baptist was beheaded. My thoughts were “OK, I still don’t see where the author has said ‘thus birthday celebrations are of the devil’”. I was told “well, because something bad happened on that day so clearly the Bible is warning us not to participate in birthday celebrations”. I replied “Because something bad happened?! Then don’t drive your car, because people are killed everyday in auto accidents!” I was told then “Well, I can’t live without my car so clearly that’s not what the Bible is saying” and on and on it went.

Blew my mind!:banghead:

This is indeed a peculiar rationale–bad things happen on birthdays in the Bible, therefore the celebration of birthdays is condemned.

I suppose, by the same reasoning, one could conclude: bad things happen in Egypt, therefore visiting Egypt is condemned by the Bible, eh?

Do the JWs proclaim this I wonder?

 

[Publisher]

I understand.

Do you think that their beliefs are false, then?

That is, do you believe these JW beliefs are false:

• that they are the only ones who are faithful to God
• that Jesus is the Archangel Michael
• that only 144,000 will enter heaven
• saluting the flag is idolatry

I believe they are mistaken on their assumptions…yes. I believe Catholics are mistaken as well…BUT I also believe that God will honor any sincere search for Him and no matter what “faith language/sacred story” we weave to seek to understand God and His work in Christ is worth pursuing…the mercy, love and grace of God is deeper and wider than we can fathom.

God can be found among the Witnesses…the woman I mentioned was a better Christian from all indications than many orthodox Christians I have met…she spoke words of kindness…always refused to “return evil for evil”…loved others…served her community…worked in soup kitchens on holidays…from what I have understand about Witnesses…she was rare…but the Light shone brightly and the proof was in how she conducted her life…she had found Something worthy in her Jehovah’s Witness faith community.

I was reminded of the words of Paul…“I am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him against that day.”…salvation is the work of God…and if the words of Jesus are any indication of what we are measured by on the Last Day…“I was hungry, I was thirsty, I was naked, Iwas lonely…”…she would be among the “sheep”. Her life proved she knew God…perhaps imperfectly in our estimation…but she doesn’t answer to me…or you…was she mistaken…yes…but the “mustard seed” of faith she LIVED spoke volumes of Truth.

 

[PRmerger]

I believe they are mistaken on their assumptions…yes. I believe Catholics are mistaken as well…BUT I also believe that God will honor any sincere search for Him and no matter what “faith language/sacred story” we weave to seek to understand God and His work in Christ is worth pursuing…the mercy, love and grace of God is deeper and wider than we can fathom.

But you do believe that there are some truths that someone must submit to, in order for God to “honor” their sincere search, yes?

God can be found among the Witnesses…the woman I mentioned was a better Christian from all indications than many orthodox Christians I have met…she spoke words of kindness…always refused to “return evil for evil”…loved others…served her community…worked in soup kitchens on holidays…from what I have understand about Witnesses…she was rare…but the Light shone brightly and the proof was in how she conducted her life…she had found Something worthy in her Jehovah’s Witness faith community.

This is quite consonant with Catholicism, Publisher!

I was reminded of the words of Paul…“I am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him against that day.”…salvation is the work of God…and if the words of Jesus are any indication of what we are measured by on the Last Day…“I was hungry, I was thirsty, I was naked, Iwas lonely…”…she would be among the “sheep”. Her life proved she knew God…perhaps imperfectly in our estimation…but she doesn’t answer to me…or you…was she mistaken…yes…but the “mustard seed” of faith she LIVED spoke volumes of Truth.

Indeed.

 

[Publisher]

But you do believe that there are some truths that someone must submit to, in order for God to “honor” their sincere search, yes?

I believe we each must follow the Light Within…Truth is something we live…not necessarily something each of us MUST articulate in a set "creed… as long as that Light guides us to live our Eternal Life NOW in this world…and live the gospel message in the daily of our lives in such a way that makes sense to us as we live this life of faith…THAT is what I believe is essential…I love the quote from John Woolman which sums up my “essential” beliefs…."There is a principle which is pure, placed in the human mind, which in different places and ages hath had different names. It is, however, pure and proceeds from God. It is deep and inward, confined to no forms of religion nor excluded from any, where the heart stands in perfect sincerity. In whomsoever this takes root and grows, of what nation soever they become brethren in the best sense of the expression. "

.

 

[PRmerger]

…

Posted by Publisher:
I believe we each must follow the Light Within…Truth is something we live…not necessarily something each of us MUST articulate in a set "creed… as long as that Light guides us to live our Eternal Life NOW in this world…and live the gospel message in the daily of our lives in such a way that makes sense to us as we live this life of faith…THAT is what I believe is essential…I love the quote from John Woolman which sums up my “essential” beliefs…"There is a principle which is pure, placed in the human mind, which in different places and ages hath had different names. It is, however, pure and proceeds from God. It is deep and inward, confined to no forms of religion nor excluded from any, where the heart stands in perfect sincerity. In whomsoever this takes root and grows, of what nation soever they become brethren in the best sense of the expression. "

Hi, friend,

Could you please not nest your responses, as it makes it difficult to quote you. Everything between

and / QUOTE] gets embedded in the rectangular arena. What you type ought to be outside of

and / QUOTE]

At any rate, I always ask folks who, like you, say that they are “noncreedal” whether they believe that white supremacists are correct in following their “truth”.

The reason I bring this up is not (as one critic liked to proffer) because I am “obsessed” with white supremacists (although, as a member of a minority race I think I do have an interest in what white supremacists are proclaiming), but because I think this is a trenchant example. It points out that “noncreedal” folks really do profess a creed. And one of the dogmas of this silent, tacit creed is: “you must believe the way I do on certain issues (such as tolerance of race) but lots of other things I really am quite okay with.”

This is fine, but I think it’s disingenuous of folks to claim they don’t have a creed, when they actually do.

Just sayin’…

 

[jericho777]

And I think your friend would be right!

Fortunately for Catholics we understand that the teachings of the Apostles are not distilled from the words of Scripture, but the words of Scripture reflect the teachings which were already delivered, once for all, to the Church. The Trinity is reflected in the NT, but without the Church to discern and guide, one can come to the conclusions that the JWs, Christadelphians, Mormons have achieved.

We receive the Faith through the paradosis. That Scripture reflects this paradosis is evident, but then, as the JWs rightly profess, with only the Scriptures, it certainly is difficult to distill the doctrine of the Trinity from its pages.

God chose to reveal the dogma of the Trinity to the Church, and it took several centuries for the Church to fully define this dogma.

So do you really beleive the Deity of Jesus is non existant in the scriptures and the CC is the only ones to figure this out? In John 1:1 Jesus is called God. 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

[PRmerger]

So do you really beleive the Deity of Jesus is non existant in the scriptures and the CC is the only ones to figure this out? In John 1:1 Jesus is called God. 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

No, I didn’t say that the deity of Christ is non-existent in the Scriptures.

I was merely pointing out that it’s a false criterion to say that “if you were on a desert island and had no one to talk to, you could not find the Divinity of Jesus in the bible.” For it’s a false criterion to have to use the Bible alone to extract our understanding of Christianity.

And, clearly by using the Bible alone one comes up with a multitude of understandings–many false–regarding Jesus.

 

[jericho777]

No, I didn’t say that the deity of Christ is non-existent in the Scriptures.

I was merely pointing out that it’s a false criterion to say that “if you were on a desert island and had no one to talk to, you could not find the Divinity of Jesus in the bible.” For it’s a false criterion to have to use the Bible alone to extract our understanding of Christianity.

And, clearly by using the Bible alone one comes up with a multitude of understandings–many false–regarding Jesus.

Well just by reading the bible alone I learned way more than I ever knew about the Deity of Christ or thought was even there. I was a little scared when he claimed there was no evidence in scripture concerning that. I was afraid he was right and I was wrong. After a year or reading I was more sure and convinced than ever of the Deity of Christ. I still continue to find more evidences when I read scripture.

 

[happy_hippo]

Similar results: they get nervous when I say am Catholic. I always thank them for going door-to-door, then add I belong to the Million Memberr Catholic [SIGN]Legion of Mary [/SIGN]Door-to-Door in every country in the world; they nervously leave.
In prior years, I thanked them for door-to-door, saying I’m Catholic, inviting them to say their piece. As soon as I caught an Obvious Mistake I knew Our Answer to, and Did tell them the Truth, respectfully, they quickly got nervous and left. I thanked them as they left.
Respect for others always is The Most Important point in exchanging Faith ideas, knowledgeably.

Reply,

Hello,

My brother was a Catholic for over 20 years and is now a JW. I asked him why? When he was a teenager, he studied Hebrew, Greek (classical and koine), ancient history and Greek philosophy and metaphysics. He did 3 years intensive reseach and came to the conclusion, ever before he ever met with JW’s, that many of the teachings, customs, celebrations and dogmas of the RCC and Protestant churches were based, not on scripture, but on extra-biblical matters!

He has had discussions with rabbis, priests, vicars etc and none of them seem to be able to touch him, as he, at will can quote the apologists, church fathers (I wish I had his memory) scripture and historical sources at will and has seemed to produce empirical indisputable evidence that what he says on certain subjects is true; for example, he says that the Triune godhead “substance sharing” (to quote him) is based on the metaphysics of a Greek philosopher called Parmenides, on whom, Plato based his metaphysical and philosophical ideas on and later on the Neo-Platonic philosophers Plotinus, Porphyry… gave the Catholic church a polished version of and that the whole church is 99% Greek in thought and only 1% Christian in thought and no vicar or priest seems to be able to hold their own against him, he seems to be like a surgeon’s scalpel. I told him about some of the way some on here answer the average JW, who in the main, are not apologists and when I told him about some of the Catholic replies to JW’s, he just laughed and laughed and said “it figures”!

Does anyone have any suggestions, as to how I can answer him, any questions, that I can put to him? Please drop me an e-mail, as I am out most of the time and can access my emails from an internet cafe!

Many thanks!

 

[Publisher]

Posted by Publisher:
Could you please not nest your responses, as it makes it difficult to quote you. Everything between

and / QUOTE] gets embedded in the rectangular arena. What you type ought to be outside of

 

[Publisher]

To the OP…my apologies for high jacking your thread.

 

[PRmerger]

Well just by reading the bible alone I learned way more than I ever knew about the Deity of Christ or thought was even there. I was a little scared when he claimed there was no evidence in scripture concerning that. I was afraid he was right and I was wrong. After a year or reading I was more sure and convinced than ever of the Deity of Christ. I still continue to find more evidences when I read scripture.

And that’s because you are reading the Scriptures through the lens of Christianity.

Someone else, say, someone stranded on a desert island who had never been exposed to Christianity, might not ever conclude that Jesus is God Incarnate through reading the Bible alone.