Scripture verses that reference praying to saints?

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How do I explain to a protestant that we are supposed to pray for intercession of Mary and the other saints? He stated that nowhere in Scripture does it reference praying to the dead. I doubt this is true, but I can’t find anywhere that it does. Some help?
 
I know in Maccabees it says something about it being a “holy and wholesome thing to pray for the dead, so they may be loosed from their sins.”, or something to that effect. I don’t think Protestant bibles have Maccabees, though. Not sure…Hopefully others may be more knowledgable and helpful than I…
 
Mark 9:4 “And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.”
Jesus spoke with Moses and Elijah. They weren’t exactly “dead”–just as the Saints aren’t exactly dead. The saints are alive in Christ. If Jesus spoke with Moses and Elijah when He walked on the earth, then speaking to those who went before us must be okay with Jesus.
 
Look under the Post “Scripture praying to the Saints(split)”.
 
According to The Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott showing honor to or calling the aid of saints is not directly mentioned in the Holy Bible while the founding principles of the practice may be deduced from the Scriptural reference to the veneration of angels and the fact that both angels and saints are presented to interceed for us. Verses are quoted from both the Old and the New Testament in support of these findings.
Holy Writ does not explicitly refer to the veneration and invocation of saints, but it asserts the principle out of which Church teaching and practice developed. Our right to venerate the saints can be deduced from the veneration offered to the angels as attested by Holy Writ (Cf. Jos 5, 14; Dn. 8, 17; Tob. 12, 16.) The ground for the veneration of the angels is their supernatural dignity, which is rooted in their immediate union with God (Mt. 18, 10). Since the saints also are immediately joined to God (1 Cor. 13, 12; 1 John 3, 2) it follows that they too are worthy of veneration.
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  1. Mac. 15, 11-16 attests the faith of the Jewish people in the intercession of the saints: Judas the Maccabean sees in a “credible” vision how two deceased just men, the High Priest Onias and the Prophet Jeremias, intercede with God for the Jewish people and for the Holy City. Cf. Jer. 15, 1. According to Tob. 12, 12; Apoc. 5, 8; and 8, 3, the angels and the saints lay the prayers of the holy on earth at the feet of God, that is, they support them with their intercession as also might be expected from the permanency of charity (1 Cor 13, 8). The propriety of invoking them logically follows from the fact of their intercession.
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The biblical proof of the doctrine of the intercession of the saints is derived from 2 Mach. 15, 14; the proof from reason derives rom the continuation and completion of neighbourly charity (De orat. 11; cf. Exhort. ad Mart. 30 and 38; In lib. Iesu navu hom. 16, 5; In Num. hom. 26, 6). Cf. St. Cyprian, Ep 60, 5.
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101405 said:
How do I explain to a protestant that we are supposed to pray for intercession of Mary and the other saints? He stated that nowhere in Scripture does it reference praying to the dead. I doubt this is true, but I can’t find anywhere that it does. Some help?
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There’s a really good answer to this in an old Catholic Answers tract that you can find at this link: Click here. I recommend you take a look at it.

A few of the basic passages that help explain praying to saints:

Psalms 103:20-21 - “Praise the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Praise the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” – Here we say a man speaking directly to the saints and angels and asking them to praise God. The difference between saying “Praise the Lord” and “Pray for me” is only the difference between two kinds of prayer. So that is an example of prayer to the Saints.

Revelation 18:20 - “Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.” – Here we see someone speaking to the Apostles and prophets in heaven and inviting them to rejoice over the fall of Babylon, which was persecuting Christians. This shows that we can address the saints in heaven when we pray, and therefore we can pray to them.

Revelation 5:8 - “Then the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” – That shows the saints in heaven interceding for those on earth. Rev. 8:3 makes it even clearer by saying that incense from heaven was added to the incense from earth: “and the incense is the prayers of the saints,” says Rev. 5:8. That means the saints in heaven add their prayers to our prayers on earth. It follows directly from the meaning of the words that is stated by the text itself: incense from heaven was added to the incense from earth, “and the incense is the prayers of the saints” – therefore they add their prayers to ours.

The same chapter informs us that they can hear us. Not only because they add their prayers to our own, but because if you keep reading chapter 5, in verses 13-14 it specifically states that they respond to our prayers with the word “Amen!”. This is the text: “[13] And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, ‘To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever!’ [14] And the four living creatures said, ‘Amen!’ and the elders fell down and worshiped.” – The saints in heaven can hear what we pray, and they join their prayers to it. It follows that they are our intercessors, and unless we’re supposed to ignore that there’s an implication for our prayer life as well: we should petition them just as we would petition any intercessor here on earth.
 
Remember that this is one of many things that we know from Tradition. That is usually meaningless to a NCC. To them, it’s like arguing that a touchdown is no good because the ball carrier missed second base. Or (for those who don’t know about American sports) that a goal is no good because the horse came in last.

If there was a verse in the NT that specifically says to ask the saints and/or Mary for their intercession, we’d have no problem proving that we’re right. The verses we do have are not that specific. They hint at it, rather than being definitive. The best we can do is to show that the Bible does not specifically forbid it.

Now for specifics. Bring your Catechism with you. The first thing in it should be the Apostolic Letter, Laetamur Magnopere. The second is the Apostolic Constitution, Fidei Depositum. Look at the end of that part, and highlight the part of this sentence that I have bolded:
  1. The Doctrinal Value of the Text
    The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium.
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Then put a bookmark there!

As a prologue, let them know that we use “praying to the saints” as an easy way to say “asking the saints to intercede for us.” It uses the word “pray” in its secondary meaning of “asking for a favor.”

First, ask where the Bible prohibits asking for the intercession of the saints. Ask them to be specific! Usually, the best they can come up with is in 1 Sam. 28. But you can use this chapter, too. Saul was using a medium (verse 7), not praying to Samuel for help.

Now, show them CCC 2116, which says that using mediums (and all other forms of divination) violates the commandment “You shall have no other gods before Me.” Tell them the Catechism is the doctrine of the Church; if they ask for proof, show them the part you highlighted about “doctrine.”
  • Don’t get sidetracked by the subject of whose arrangement of the Commandments is better! Just nicely remind them that they asked about “praying to Mary and the saints.”
Now is the time to bring up the verses dmar198 gave us. Note that they do not prove that what we do is right - but they do show that talking to the angels and saints, and asking them to do something, is not wrong.
  • A sidetrack that can arise here is that Rev. 5:8 shows that, of those who died after Jesus, only the “twenty-four elders” are in heaven. Some NCCs believe that our souls do not go to our eternal destination upon death, but will “sleep” until the Second coming. Again, nicely say that we’re talking about “praying to Mary and the saints,” not about the subject of “soul sleep.”
Also bring up Mark 9:4, as GardensWithKids suggested. It shows that Jesus, who was on earth at the time, conversed with someone known to be dead, that is, Moses. (Moses had a grave: Dt 34:5-6. Elijah didn’t: 2 Ki 2:11, so we can’t prove that he died.) Again, they can respond that only Jesus, who is God, spoke to them and the Apostles who saw it didn’t.

At the best, we can’t prove that the Bible tells us to ask for intercession by the people in Heaven. But unless you are dealing with someone unreasonable, you should be able to get them to admit that the Bible doesn’t specifically forbid it, either.

At the end of it all, you will probably not change their mind. But they may decide that you know your stuff, and bring you more questions. So you better know your stuff! 😉
 
Read John 2:1 “if anyone do sin, he has an advocate with the Father, even Jesus Christ the righteous.”

If that is so why should anyone want, or need, the intercession of the Virgin, or a saint?

Moreover, we are told that baptism confers on us rebirth. It is Christ who is reborn in us because it was he who was sown in us on conception, the parable of the sower tells us that. If baptism does confer rebirth on us and we have Jesus Christ within us, why on earth do we look to a saint, or even the blessed virgin, for intercession? Christ is present and he is our Advocate with the Father.

(I personally do not believe the ceremony of baptism confers anything at all. I believe baptism is a long and slow and difficult and very painful process of awakening and inner cleansing by the water of truth - and much else beside - which MAY eventually lead to rebirth. In other words, the ceremony is nothing more than an indication of what we must pass through in reality.)
 
One reason he says it is no where in Scripture is because protestants are working with a partial Bible. They do not have the Book of Tobit in their Bible. Read Tobit 12. In it you will see that Tobit said a prayer and (verse 12) it is revealed by the archangel Raphael that he had heard Tobit’s prayer and interceded for him to the Lord. That is exactly what intercessory prayer is. Remember too that in Matthew (22:30) it says men will be like angels in heaven-- so Mary and the other saints have the same gift that God gave to the archangel to hear the pleading of we who are on earth.

But as others have said, you MUST remember that our faith is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ and the apostles whether** by word or by letter **(2 Th 2:15). Our church existed before the New Testament was written or before the decisions were made of what Old Testament works should go in the Bible. Thus, when we defend our faith, it is important that you know that we follow the magisterial teaching of the Church which follows Tradition and Scripture. When someone says that is not in Scripture-- it might not be. There are some things which just weren’t written down until centuries later. We rely heavily on the Scriptures, don’t get me wrong. But the pillar and foundation of truth is the CHURCH (1 Tim 3:15) and that is who we rely on for correct teachings in all matters of faith, including the interpretation of the Scriptures.

PS. don’t you think it is ironic that non-Catholics use try to use our letters (the New Testament) to disprove the truth of the Church?
 
This is the Apologetics section! We should be explaining and defending our faith, not sneering at their abridged Bible.

Remember that some of them are probably reading this thread! (Hello, friends!) Looking down on them and joking about them will not help. :tsktsk: They are our separated brethren. They are our family who don’t live in our house, the Church, and we want them to come home.

Back to the subject. Prayer Warrior said,
Read Tobit 12. In it you will see that Tobit said a prayer and (verse 12) it is revealed by the archangel Raphael that he had heard Tobit’s prayer and interceded for him to the Lord.
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The problem with this is that they were both praying directly to the Lord, not to Raphael. So this, too, is not definitive.

Note: I am just showing where a NCC can poke holes in the Biblical argument. This is important, because if we don’t use good argument, they can simply write us off as deluded by our church – which means they’ve stopped listening.

That is why I advocate for admitting up front that we can’t prove it from the Bible, and asking them to show where the Bible bans it. Then we can show them the verses that indirectly hint at it.
 
101405 said:
How do I explain to a protestant that we are supposed to pray for intercession of Mary and the other saints? He stated that nowhere in Scripture does it reference praying to the dead. I doubt this is true, but I can’t find anywhere that it does. Some help?
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Ask your protestant friend if he or she has ever ask someone in their church to pray for them for help with a particular problem. When they answer yes, tell them that this is what we do also and that we also ask the Saints to join us in prayer before God. Tell them that, “Just because a Saint has passed from this life to the spiritual life before God, doesn’t mean that he or she is no longer part of the Church.”

Let’s take the “Hail Mary” for example…
[Hail Mary full of grace the lord is with thee. Blessed are you amongst women and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.] This part of the prayer is all taken from scripture. The last part of the prayer is a simple request that she… “Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.” Can there be any sin in making such a request?

Jeff
 
101405 said:
How do I explain to a protestant that we are supposed to pray for intercession of Mary and the other saints? He stated that nowhere in Scripture does it reference praying to the dead. I doubt this is true, but I can’t find anywhere that it does. Some help?
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We don’t pray to the dead (or, at least we’re not supposed to 😊). We pray to Mother Mary and the saints and angels. Saints, who have died in the friendship of Christ, aren’t “dead”! 😉
“The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die.” John 11:25
Shouldn’t all Christians, Protestants included, take Jesus’ words seriously?
If I can ask anyone on earth to pray for me, all the more I can ask the same favor of one who has been elevated to eternal life in Christ! It’s merely commonsense.
Here’s a prediction though: if you do make some headway with your Protestant friend on this issue (good luck!) the next question you’re going to get is “How can the saints (folks in heaven) hear us?” That’s when you might ask a counter question: “If folks in heaven are cut off from us, i.e. there is no communion of saints, how do angels know to rejoice when a sinner is reconciled to God?” (Luke 15:10).* Jesus *said they do! 😉
God bless.
Francis
 
Recall Jesus opened the gates of Heaven to people. Although we know Enoch and Elijah went off into “heaven” or “the sky” we know they did not open the gates of Heaven. Jesus did.

Therefore looking in the Old Testament for “praying to the Saints” may be a bit difficult if you are looking for human persons in Heaven to pray to.

But we know the “Communion of Saints” includes also the Holy Angels (like SAINT Michael the Archangel for example—Angel’s names frequently seem to end with “el” as they are “messengers of God such as St. Gabriel, St. Raphael, in addition to St. Michael).

So if you want to look at the Old Testament for “prayers to the Saints” you will need to focus on a person praying to a heavenly angel for the example you are looking for.

If the New Testament were written early, and I believe it was, then you would not expect to see specific persons commonly recognized as saints in Heaven without some sort of approbation by people in authority (i.e. the Apostles or successors to the Apostles).

So you wouldn’t expect to see much in the way of prayers to the Saints there either. In early Christian history yes, but in the New Testament, not much yet—too early for those kinds of specifics.

Although you can find non-specific involvement of people in Heaven (human Saints not explicitly named) who are in Heaven receiving prayers from people on earth and presenting those prayers to God in the Book of Revelation (especially in Revelation chapters 5-8).

Anyway here is one specific example of a person on earth, asking an Old Testament Heavenly Saint to “bless me”. This is a prayer to a Saint.

If you now asked St. Padre Pio to bless you, (“please bless me St. Pio”), your friend might say “Hey! Cut that praying to the Saints stuff out!” (Assuming your friend would admit to St. Padre Pio as a Saint—But if he refuses to admit that, then use an example such as praying to Saint Paul).

Now let’s go to the Old Testament and watch Jacob (Israel) ask an Angel (a Heavenly Saint) to “bless me”.

GENESIS 32:24-30 24 And Jacob was left alone; and a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day. 25 When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and Jacob’s thigh was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. 26 Then he said, “Let me go, for the day is breaking.” But Jacob said, “I will not let you go, unless you bless me.” 27 And he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” 28 Then he said, “Your name shall no more be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.” 29 Then Jacob asked him, “Tell me, I pray, your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him. 30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life is preserved.”

The whole nation of Israel was in essence named at least in part because Jacob asked for a blessing from a Saint (prayers to a Saint-in this case an angel named Peniel)! Your friend may deny that, but ask him/her for Biblical evidence to the contrary. Then re-read Genesis 32:24-30.

Recall the Heavenly Saints are NOT dead as some of the Pharisees wrongly implied and Jesus corrected them on (Matthew 22:32, Mark 12:27, Luke 20:37-38).

This may be a reasonable example for your Protestant friend to prayerfully meditate on.
 
Incidentally, although “Jacob called the name of the place Peniel”, I think he probably received the name from the Angel that he just asked him for and named the site in accordance with that name. Admittedly just conjecture on my part. I would freely admit we don’t know this is this angel’s name with certainty but that does not change the principle of Jacob praying to an unnamed heavenly angel.
 
101405 said:
How do I explain to a protestant that we are supposed to pray for intercession of Mary and the other saints? He stated that nowhere in Scripture does it reference praying to the dead. I doubt this is true, but I can’t find anywhere that it does. Some help?
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**

In our Article of Faith or Credo,
we believe in the Communion of Saints .
This is the Communion of the
Church MIlitant on earth,
the Church Suffering
in purgatory
and the Church Truimphant in heaven .

We ask intercession
from one another
just as protestants
ask intercession
from each other.
Those in Heaven
or in Purgatory are
powerful intercessors.

In the spiritual realm
there are no “dead”.
God created each of us
with an immortal soul.
The souls in communion
in God and with one another
are the souls
in Heaven ,
on earth ,
and in purgatory.:coffeeread::coffeeread**
 
Regarding praying for each other see: Acts 12:5, Romans 15:30, and 2 Mac. 12:45.

Regarding general intercession from saints see: Tob. 12:6, 12-15; 2 Mac. 15:11-14; Revelation 5:8, and Revelation 8:4.

Regarding being surrounded by saints and saints being in heaven: Hebrews 12:1, 1 Thess. 3:13, Hebrews 12: 23, and 1 Peter 3:18-19.
 
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