scripture vs. tradition?

[Ignatius]

myfavoritmartin:

Catholic catechism paragraph 82 Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."
Yet
Jesus warned us against tradition Mark 7:1-13

This is a tough one for a protestant to wrap their arms around.

It shouldn’t be. In second thesoloneans Paul tess us to stand firm and hold fat to the Traditions they you were taught.
In Mark, Jesus was talking about the man made traditions such as Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, etc. that did not even exist until the 16th century.

It seems to me that the protestants have a much more difficult position. How do they justify creating new traditions 1600 years after Christ founded His Church?

 

[Ignatius]

myfavoritmartin:

bowing to a statue of mary, is idolatry is it not?.

Not really. BTW, did you know that Martin Luther was a strong proponent of devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

 

[jennifer101]

I’m tired of the Catholic traditions, myself. I’m a Catholic, but I respect a lot of what Martin Luther had to say. I’m anti-tradition at this point and will not submit to senseless tradition any longer. The bible is my guide, the Catholic church can assist me in that, but I will no longer jump through hoops. I’m spending that time on developing a personal dialogue with God.

 

[zian]

jennifer101:

I’m tired of the Catholic traditions, myself. I’m a Catholic, but I respect a lot of what Martin Luther had to say. I’m anti-tradition at this point and will not submit to senseless tradition any longer. The bible is my guide, the Catholic church can assist me in that, but I will no longer jump through hoops. I’m spending that time on developing a personal dialogue with God.

Pity, as there are so many Catholic traditions that will be of help to you in developing your personal dialogue with God. Why not just pick a couple to concentrate on. Rosary. Eucharistic Benediction. etc etc. Take advantage of your parish’s Lent and Holy Week activities, won’t you?

And don’t forget your Bible!

 

[levi86]

myfavoritmartin:

The promises of the rosary is proobably the most blasphemous of them all, .

You are obviously very familiar with the promises of the Rosary, after all how could you make such a statement if you.weren’t.

would someone please share the promises of the rosary with me?

Hmmmm… sounds like prejudice to me.

 

[montanaman]

jennifer101:

I’m tired of the Catholic traditions, myself. I’m a Catholic, but I respect a lot of what Martin Luther had to say. I’m anti-tradition at this point and will not submit to senseless tradition any longer. The bible is my guide, the Catholic church can assist me in that, but I will no longer jump through hoops. I’m spending that time on developing a personal dialogue with God.

You’re anti-tradition except for the great big tradition of the canon of the Bible, you mean.

Good luck on your journey. Pray hard.

 

[FCEGM]

I’m presently reading Janice Bennett’s wonderful documentation of the history of the Holy Grail; this work is entitled St. Laurence and the Holy Grail. The author gives a fine historical analysis of the story of St. Laurence, a deacon in the Roman Church who was martyred in AD 258, and the Cup Our Lord used at the Last Supper which was sent by him to Spain for safe-keeping during the prosecution of the Church in Rome. (It most probably is still in Spain in the Cathedral of Valencia - but read the book. )

Anyway, just yesterday I read the following passage which I think presents an excellent, though brief, overview of tradition (Sacred Tradition) in the life of the Church:

. . .[T]radition was an integral part of the primitive Christian community. It was of great importance that the common body of material, summed up as gospel and teaching and which was traced to the apostles and witnesses of the life of Jesus Himself, should be preserved without deformation, and fidelity to the received tradition was the ultimate assurance that the doctrine proposed was genuine. Revelation was the word of Jesus: the word incarnate, his life and person, and his sayings. This revelation was the object of tradition, the oral transmission of the material to disciples, following the means of the Jewish rabbinical schools, and forms the basis of Christian belief.
This concept has changed dramatically throughout the centuries, being replaced by reliance on the written word rather than speech; in fact, recent centuries have witnessed such a complete reversal of this idea that many mistakenly believe that tradition is nothing but legend and folklore, rather than the aggregate customes, beliefs, and practices that give continuity to a culture, including its laws and institutions. In many religions, among them Catholicism, tradition signifies essential doctrines or tenets that are not necessarily set down in sacred scriptures, but are accepted as equally authoritative, and are sometimes used to interpret them. The modern tendency, therefore, is to dismiss traditions lacking written documentation as inauthentic or at the very least untrustworthy, but it should be remembered that they are the foundation of societal beliefs and practices, and have been considered more reliable than documents written by individuals.

And when someone wants to be one’s own pope, it’s much easier to do so when all one has to go by is one’s personal - and often faulty - interpretation of a written word.

 

[petra]

myfavoritmartin:

Catholic catechism paragraph 82 Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."
Yet
Jesus warned us against tradition Mark 7:1-13

This is a tough one for a protestant to wrap their arms around.

How do you know that the scriptures you quote are the Word of God?
Which ancient books are inspired by the Holy Spirit and which are not?
How trustworthy is the Bible’s Table of Contents?
Who determined the Bible’s Table of Contents?

You correctly trust your Bible as God’s Word, but you do so (whether you realize it or not) with the presupposition that Sacred Tradition is infallible. The Catholic Church, protected by infallability of doctrine and morals, determined which ancient writings were inspired.

If you reject Sacred Tradition, to be intellectually honest, you must reject Sacred Scripture.

 

[Church_Militant]

myfavoritmartin:

The manner in which I was asking, more pertained to verse 8 and how it may be relating to exodus 20 verses 4-5

:yawn: Another guy who’s apparently too slack to use the search feature to find this stuff without wasting his time and efforts. What do ya think that search feature is for people? To fill up space?!
Dave’s Allegation That Catholics Are Idolators. The whole long argument is worked out right there.

People, try to remember that te Catholic Church has been answering heresies for 2,000 years and the post reformation errors for 500 and there’s not one new thing to come along. Nothing! Not a thing. And almost all of that stuff has been dealt with in threads that readily pop up if someone just uses the search feature.

Read the graven image part of the first commandment here:
Exodus 20:1-5

“1 And the Lord spoke all these words: 2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:”

It is clear that the prohibition is not iconoclastic as you preach, but based upon the intent of the one making and using the image. Since NO CATHOLIC EVER kneels down before any image to worship it we are not idolators at all. We are not stupid enough to confuse a mass of rock, plaster, metal, or any other created thing with the almighty and ever living God of the Universe.

A graven image according to the context of the 1st commandment is anything that a person would construct in order to give it the worship that is due only to God. Now, that said, it could also include anything that we choose to make more important than God in our lives, such as money, career, or power. The Catechism of the Catholic Church gets into it more here: christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/comm1.html#GRAVEN so you can peruse that at your convenience.

Islam forbids the display of ANY images (It’s called Iconoclasm, this forbidding) and the iconoclastic heresies that have arisen in Christianity were the result of Islamic influence in about the 800’s. you can find that history here at New Advent: newadvent.org/cathen/07620a.htm

If you talk to people who lived under the Talliban in Afganistan you’ll find that they absolutely rejoiced when they were overthrown because they could at last have pictures of family and art openly in their homes. If our statues are wrong then why did God command Moses to make the Brass serpent? It is even spoken of as a foreshadowing of Christ in the New Testament!

Also why did God command that the Ark of the Covenant have the statues of two Cherubim on its top if images and statues are wrong?

And then there is Solomon’s temple as desribed by the OT and the very one that the Jews hope to rebuild on its original site someday. Read the way it was decorated…and yet God never complained in the least.

I’m Catholic, not Moslem and my Christianity complies with the Word of God. Those who attack our most holy faith with allegations like “Somebody’sFavoriteMartin” are the ones who are twisting the Word of God to suit their own teachings. Hate it for ya…

Pax vobiscum,

 

[jennifer101]

zian:

Pity, as there are so many Catholic traditions that will be of help to you in developing your personal dialogue with God. Why not just pick a couple to concentrate on. Rosary. Eucharistic Benediction. etc etc. Take advantage of your parish’s Lent and Holy Week activities, won’t you?

And don’t forget your Bible!

I’ve done the Rosary for many years. Got to say… got nothing from it after all. When I stopped repeating a single man-made prayer 50 or so times, I realized I had something to say to Mary and God that actually required me to think and ask and wait on a response. I got more from that than all my Rosary work. Although, I did really dig praying the Rosary in my Church in Maryland… I think it was called St. Mary’s. Been many years now. I liked going to the 6am Rosary. It was nice all early in the morning… But, I think it was the atmosphere, the church, the early morning.
(Edited uncharitable personal remarks.) The 10 commandments have all we need to know. And … Do this in memory of me… receiving communion, of course.

 

[Tonks40]

jennifer101:

I’ve done the Rosary for many years. Got to say… got nothing from it after all. When I stopped repeating a single man-made prayer 50 or so times, I realized I had something to say to Mary and God that actually required me to think and ask and wait on a response. I got more from that than all my Rosary work. Although, I did really dig praying the Rosary in my Church in Maryland… I think it was called St. Mary’s. Been many years now. I liked going to the 6am Rosary. It was nice all early in the morning… But, I think it was the atmosphere, the church, the early morning.
(Edited uncharitable personal remarks.) The 10 commandments have all we need to know. And … Do this in memory of me… receiving communion, of course.

Before you leave Catholicism and become a protestant (which is essentially what you are doing when you say you want to rid yourself of “man-made traditions”) please do some research on what the Early Church Father’s said. Many of these so-called traditions that you claim came from the Apostles, and Christ himself. There are many scriptural proofs that support how we as Catholics (heck, as all Christians) must worship our Lord, and you may find that there is nothing there in the Catholic tradition that is disputed in the Bible.

As for the Rosary, the Hail Mary is scriptural, so is the Lord’s Prayer…nothing man-made about those. When I say it, I try and center myself on the Mysteries of Christ’s life…praying for intercession to Mary feels like coming to full circle for me, acknowledge from whom Him came from, and honoring Him through the Mysteries of the Rosary.

I hope you find peace in whatever journey you take…but make sure you do yourself that favor of looking into the history of your Church.

 

[NotWorthy]

How about Christ’s one and only commandment that He left us?
“Love one another, as I have loved you”!

Jennifer, you’re early comment on needless traditions and such: Let’s see, “I’m anti-tradition at this point and will not submit to senseless tradition any longer.” Ah, yes, that’s it. I agree with what was posted earlier. Try taking one tradition, and learn all you can about it. I think you’ll find that ALL of these traditions are designed to draw you closer to God, which is what we all should be striving for.

Good Luck!

Notworthy

 

[Eden]

jennifer101:

Although, I did really dig praying the Rosary in my Church in Maryland… I think it was called St. Mary’s. Been many years now.

It is difficult to answer in a serious manner to quotes like this. I think someone is pulling our leg.

 

[dcdurel]

jennifer101:

I’m tired of the Catholic traditions, myself. I’m a Catholic, but I respect a lot of what Martin Luther had to say. I’m anti-tradition at this point and will not submit to senseless tradition any longer. The bible is my guide, the Catholic church can assist me in that, but I will no longer jump through hoops. I’m spending that time on developing a personal dialogue with God.

Every Christian in the New Testament learned the Gospel through Tradition. (Believing what the apostles taught and preached) Not a single Christian learned the Gospel by reading scripture.

We forget that Jesus taught ENTIRELY BY TRADITION. Jesus did not write a single verse of scripture.
Everyone had to believe the Tradition that Jesus taught and preached. Because that Sacred Tradition IS THE WORD OF GOD.
Then Jesus commanded His apostles to go and preach the Gospel. Those who believed the Gospel the apostles taught and preached would be saved. Those who did not believe would be condemned (Mark 16:16) Thus, everyone had to believe the Gospel handed down in TRADITION. Why? Because sacred Tradition IS THE WORD OF GOD. The Gospel the apostles taught and preached (Apostolic Tradition) IS THE WORD OF GOD.

No where in the entire bible does Jesus say that those who believe their own personal interpretion of the bible will be saved.

Because our personal interpretation IS NOT THE WORD OF GOD.

 

[jennifer101]

Eden:

It is difficult to answer in a serious manner to quotes like this. I think someone is pulling our leg.

You know what? I am not pulling your leg. This is who I am. The saddest truth about your suspicion about me being a fake poster, is that it underscores how you have to have a certain “tone” or nuance about your language to be considered a real poster here. You really need to think about how narrow a definition you have for authentic voices when you get suspicious about another poster based on word choices or whatever. I’m as real as it gets, so maybe you’re the one acting?
To one of the other posters… My son has Celiac disease. Tell me where Jesus handed down a recipe to be used exclusively for communion. That’s one tradition that I can happily live without. Holy days of obligation… Non obligation days, such as ash wednesday, fasting on specific days as outlined by the church, Mortal sins/venial sins and the definintions of them, kneeling, standing, sitting at specific times during mass… there’s no real dialogue encouraged. I’m taking my cues from the bible exclusively from here on in. I still like my saints too much to give them up. My endometriosis went away on a gluten free diet, so I won’t be receiving communion anymore because the church is too stubborn to provide gluten free hosts… I know, I know, there’s gluten light hosts available… You live with endometriosis for a year and a half, go gluten free, have the pain go away and tell me if you’d risk eating a gluten full host ever again in your life. I know, I know, I can have the wine… so can my celiac son… It’s not worth the stigma to get our own cup, make a fuss about keeping the host away from it completely and going off in a corner to sip our wine apart from the rest of the congregation. We’re “scandalous” to the Catholic Church. In order to avoid scandal, we’re to keep our gluten intolerance hush-hush. As if God made a mistake by not factoring in Celiacs when Jesus said “do this in memory of me”. Hardly. Just the Church leadership hung up on the wrong thing. It’s this adherence to “tradition” that began my separation from the church. I will no longer respect man made traditons as put forth by the Catholic church. I will reflect on what Jesus asks us to do, the 10 commandments and the examples in His parables. Other than that, it’s a tradition. Traditions are nothing more than stumbling blocks. The Popes can holler all they want about having God’s blessing to make up all the traditions they want. I no longer believe them. Frankly, they’re distorting their power to accomodate what they want to do.

 

[levi86]

Here’s a site that might help, It discusses the extensive use of “graven images” for religious purposes in ancient Israel.

catholicapologetics.net/Synagogue_Art.htm

In Christ
Levi

 

[geno75]

Eden:

Examples of Jesus’ and the Apostles’ Reliance on Oral Tradition

Acts 20:35 - Paul relies on the oral tradition of the apostles for this statement (“it is better to give than to receive”) of Jesus. It is not recorded in the Gospels.

scripturecatholic.com

So Jesus never taught this concept in the gospels?

 

[Eden]

jennifer101:

You know what? I am not pulling your leg. This is who I am.

I apologize for suspecting you were a fake poster because you used the phrase “dig” in reference to the rosary.

May God heal your bitterness and pain. I can see you are deeply hurting. I will pray for you.

 

[jennifer101]

Eden:

I apologize for suspecting you were a fake poster because you used the phrase “dig” in reference to the rosary.

May God heal your bitterness and pain. I can see you are deeply hurting. I will pray for you.

Thank you. I appreciate that very much. This journey is far from over for me. Jesus came to save those that need saving. Hello! I’m one of those He came for! So when I’m feeling like dirt, lost and confused, sick of my walk, etc… I figure, I’m as close to Jesus as I can get. He’s gotta be close at those moments… Unlike the folks who have lots of confidence in their walk, are moving along pretty steadily even during times of hardship, pain, loss, grief… those folks are usually steady enough on their own two feet and don’t require a straight jacket- like hug from Jesus just to get them ahead a couple of feet. Right now my mantra is, “I believe, help my unbelief”. And “I desire Mercy and not sacrifice”. I’m clinging to those two sentiments and trying to move ahead. I’m confident that Jesus and our Lord approve my efforts when I’m feeling so lost. Your prayers are a blessing for both of us. For me - for obvious reasons! For you because “we are blessed when we bless others”. So, thank God today for your own sake that I’m a mess today! I provide a blessing for those who pray for my blessings!

 

[Eden]

jennifer101:

Your prayers are a blessing for both of us. For me - for obvious reasons! For you because “we are blessed when we bless others”. So, thank God today for your own sake that I’m a mess today! I provide a blessing for those who pray for my blessings!

Thank you for reminding me of that. We do all need eachother.

http://bestsmileys.com/hugging/3.gif

If you have some quiet time for yourself, maybe you can draw some inspiration from reading The Book of Job.

This guide may enhance your reading (if you are not too familiar with Job, I’m not so I like this guide):

catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9310otg.asp

Here are some excerpts from the link:

There is a happy ending, and the moral is quite clear, even if Job does not grasp it.

Job’s question remains unanswered. He does not discover the reason why innocent people suffer. The furthest he gets is to realize that suffering is part of God’s plan, that it has to be accepted as long as it lasts, and that God does not abandon the sufferer. In this connection it raises other basic points which later revelation – especially that of the New Testament–will be more specific about: (a) suffering tests the genuineness of a person’s virtue; (b) it protects him from pride and makes him more humble; (c) when suffering comes a person’s way he should abandon himself completely into God’s hands.

The entire book opens up a new perspective, that of the reward which awaits, in heaven, those who do God’s will on earth. Job’s suffering, the suffering of a just man who bears it patiently and continues to seek mercy and forgiveness, acquires its fullest meaning in the New Testament. Thus, this text of St. Paul provides an answer to Job’s complaints: “I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us” (Rom 8:18).

In other words, no matter how much we may suffer on earth, it is nothing compared with the vision of God which awaits us in heaven.