Scripture: What's myth and what's history?

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Have you ever actually studied theology? Are these talking points sent to you by EWTN that you feel you need to post for the sake of argument?
LOL, yes, I am working on a Master of Arts in Theology. Are you threatened by EWTN? At least EWTN is helping Christians with their faith while redaction criticism and modernism is draining the churches in places where its unorthodox brand of theology is promulgated.
 
At least EWTN is helping Christians with their faith while redaction criticism and modernism is draining the churches in places where its unorthodox brand of theology is promulgated.
Ignoring historical criticism introduces a lie into any contemporary Christian faith that claims history as its basis. It is not acceptable to assert that one’s views are historically accurate and that the Catholic church and every practice in it are historically based while at the same time rejecting the standards and practices of modern historical method and historical thinking. Such a lie undermines Christian practice and spirituality which must have to do with the truth and the real.

This faith tradition can no longer rest on the fading theistic claims of yesterday. The presuppositions upon which Christianity was built are not today sustainable. When one listens to the guardians of the various ecclesiastical establishments, as they seek to explain these statistical realities (loss of members, few clergy), one is amazed at the capacity for self-deception.

The current drastic decline in the power of institutional Christianity is occurring not because of liberal compromises with the ancient verities, but because the traditional basis upon which the faith system has been erected can no longer be sustained. The heart will never worship what the mind rejects.

Appeals to New Testament canon as a timeless source of unchanging Truth obscure both the living processes of religious faith and practice, and suffocate human responsibility under the cloak of authoritarianism.

Tradition is not simply the unchanged materials handed down from the past; rather people living in the present decide on and indeed fight for what will constitute their true tradition. In doing so, they appropriate some elements of the past and reject others. Even the elements of the past that are kept take on new meanings by being deployed in new and changing contexts.
 
This faith tradition can no longer rest on the fading theistic claims of yesterday. The presuppositions upon which Christianity was built are not today sustainable.
Oh really, I never heard that before. I must have missed that sermon.

Here’s another quote from that article:
To draw the potential trauma of the demise of theism even more tightly, we Christians need to face the fact that the heart of our faith story rests on the assumption that it is this theistic God who has been met incarnate in Jesus the Christ. The interpretive framework which Christians have traditionally wrapped around this Jesus is based upon the assumption that in the Christ figure the theistic God from beyond the sky has entered human history and has been encountered in human form.
Nice attitude there :rolleyes: So according to the view of scripture you are defending here, the notion that God entered the world as Jesus is absurd.
 
When ‘modern scholars’ contribute something, anything, that edifies believers, increases faith, inspires love for Christ, motivates Christians to reach out to the lost with the infallible truth of Almighty God, and conforms to the love of Christ, I am all for them…If that builds faith, inspires love for Jesus and Mary, and extends the frontiers of the Reign of God, then it is the work of God. Its just telling that in the countries where your version of ‘modern scholarship’ has taken root, the churches are empty and the populations are in free fall decline.
Here’s the problem I have with that. It’s a matter of ends justifying the means. If I deny evolution and an ancient earth – two things which I consider, based on the scientific evidence, to have been substantially proven beyond a reasonable doubt – so that Christian faith can spread, then I’m essentially lying to produce the effect of spreading faith, and how is that behavior consistent with the teaching of the faith I’m supposed to be spreading (i.e., “thou shalt not bear false witness”)?

–Mike
 
Genesis, Revelations- Symbolic stories to teach

The rest of the bible historical.
 
The heart will never worship what the mind rejects.
True. I think that’s the main reason that I’ve never fully surrendered myself to the Christian paradigm, much as I’ve often wanted to.
Appeals to New Testament canon as a timeless source of unchanging Truth obscure both the living processes of religious faith and practice, and suffocate human responsibility under the cloak of authoritarianism…Tradition is not simply the unchanged materials handed down from the past; rather people living in the present decide on and indeed fight for what will constitute their true tradition. In doing so, they appropriate some elements of the past and reject others. Even the elements of the past that are kept take on new meanings by being deployed in new and changing contexts.
I’m not sure how far I agree with you in this. Tradition does imply a fidelity to what has come before, as in Moses’ command to the Israelites: “If a prophet accurately predicts the future, but then tells you to follow other gods, he is a false prophet. Don’t listen to him.” (Paraphrased from Deuteronomy.)

When the Fathers held the Ecumenical Councils that defined the faith more precisely, they weren’t trying to introduce anything new into the faith. Rather, they were trying to find ways to accurately express the faith that had been once for all delivered to the saints. Sometimes that involved adopting new meanings for terms previously rejected (e.g., homoousion), or coming up with constructions that actually contradicted earlier testimony (e.g., the Chalcedonian formula “one person in two natures” which contradicted Cyril’s anti-Nestorian “one person, one nature” formula which won the day at Ephesus). What it never meant was tossing out the faith of old and replacing it with something new, which, I have to agree, is what one basically has to do when adding evolution into the mix.

–Mike
 
Genesis, Revelations- Symbolic stories to teach

The rest of the bible historical.
So Abraham need not have been the historical ancestor of the Jews, or of Christ? Do you honestly think that’s what the Apostle Paul believed?

–Mike
 
This faith tradition can no longer rest on the fading theistic claims of yesterday. The presuppositions upon which Christianity was built are not today sustainable. When one listens to the guardians of the various ecclesiastical establishments, as they seek to explain these statistical realities (loss of members, few clergy), one is amazed at the capacity for self-deception. …
Appeals to New Testament canon as a timeless source of unchanging Truth obscure both the living processes of religious faith and practice, and suffocate human responsibility under the cloak of authoritarianism.

Tradition is not simply the unchanged materials handed down from the past; rather people living in the present decide on and indeed fight for what will constitute their true tradition. In doing so, they appropriate some elements of the past and reject others. Even the elements of the past that are kept take on new meanings by being deployed in new and changing contexts.
patg, this is very well put. People fail to realize that theology is not simply a matter of woodenly clinging to timeless tradition from bygone eras. Theology must appropriate tradition and modify it where necessary, or else be left in the dust of a changing world.
 
You should read the whole thing. It’s quite entertaining.

Maybe you could list or quote the relevant paragraphs for us? I don’t think any of us is much inclined to read thousands of pages just to get at a few relevant paragraphs.

Kinda hard to put this suggestion in the “useful and helpful” category unless you also recommend a good commentary for us. Different commentaries, even different Catholic commentaries, are not all going to say the same things on all passages of scripture.

Yes, actually, they are, because – at least where the CCC is concerned – we’ve been there, done that, didn’t get a whole heck of a lot out of it.

So, thanks for contributing practically nothing to the discussion (though I would still welcome your recommendation of a good commentary if you have one to give).

–Mike
The “journey” of scripture study is part of the reward of studying scripture. The CCC from paragraph 50 to 141 contains the direct teaching about scripture itself, although the CCC interweaves scripture throughout.

These statements in the CCC are largely based on the teaching of the Second Vatican Council, in the document Dei Verbum (The Word of God).

This section of the Catechism can hardly be said to “contribute practically nothing” to the discussion, if the OP is interested in the point of view of the Catholic Church.

The original question about what is myth and what is history is a very complicated one. Mike (mpartyka), has anyone else answered this question in any single post or combination of posts? Mike, have you contributed something big that I have overlooked?

My point is, this question, especially stated as vaguely as it is, can hardly be answered in a thread like this. And, as before, I suggest that the OP use the “energy” of his/her curiosity to start digging deeper into scripture study.

No one else has answered this question definitively, to the satisfaction of all the interested parties.

The 1993 document from the Pontifical Biblical Commission points out the strengths and weaknesses of a lot of the popular and most well-known schools of scripture study.

Someone looking at any scripture reference ought to consider the views of the PBC, to at least qualify their answer about the topic of this thread.
 
Here’s the problem I have with that. It’s a matter of ends justifying the means. If I deny evolution and an ancient earth – two things which I consider, based on the scientific evidence, to have been substantially proven beyond a reasonable doubt – so that Christian faith can spread, then I’m essentially lying to produce the effect of spreading faith, and how is that behavior consistent with the teaching of the faith I’m supposed to be spreading (i.e., “thou shalt not bear false witness”)?

–Mike

**In fairness to the OP, I think he means that he is “with” it when it builds people up - but not when it does other things. IOW, he wants the good bits of it, & not those he sees as not good. Which is a perfectly intelligible & moral position to take, whatever its value as an insight into critical scholarship 🙂 **​

 
True. I think that’s the main reason that I’ve never fully surrendered myself to the Christian paradigm, much as I’ve often wanted to.

I’m not sure how far I agree with you in this. Tradition does imply a fidelity to what has come before, as in Moses’ command to the Israelites: “If a prophet accurately predicts the future, but then tells you to follow other gods, he is a false prophet. Don’t listen to him.” (Paraphrased from Deuteronomy.)

When the Fathers held the Ecumenical Councils that defined the faith more precisely, they weren’t trying to introduce anything new into the faith. Rather, they were trying to find ways to accurately express the faith that had been once for all delivered to the saints. Sometimes that involved adopting new meanings for terms previously rejected (e.g., homoousion), or coming up with constructions that actually contradicted earlier testimony (e.g., the Chalcedonian formula “one person in two natures” which contradicted Cyril’s anti-Nestorian “one person, one nature” formula which won the day at Ephesus). What it never meant was tossing out the faith of old and replacing it with something new, which, I have to agree, is what one basically has to do when adding evolution into the mix.

–Mike
Mike,
Excellent post! :clapping:
You display a very reverent understanding of the subject matter that is sadly missing from the neo-modernists advocating what Pius XII warned about in Divino Afflante Spiritu:
Finally it is absolutely wrong and forbidden “either to narrow inspiration to certain passages of Holy Scripture, or to admit that the sacred writer has erred,” since divine inspiration “not only is essentially incompatible with error but excludes and rejects it as absolutely and necessarily as it is impossible that God Himself, the supreme Truth, can utter that which is not true. This is the ancient and constant faith of the Church.”[9]
Pope Pius XII also directs the Church to study the Scriptures with supreme reverence for the sake of their Author:
  1. Whosoever considers the immense labors undertaken by Catholic exegetes during well nigh two thousand years, so that the word of God, imparted to men through the Sacred Letters, might daily be more deeply and fully understood and more intensely loved, will easily be convinced that it is the serious duty of the faithful, and especially of priests, to make free and holy use of this treasure, accumulated throughout so many centuries by the greatest intellects. For the Sacred Books were not given by God to men to satisfy their curiosity or to provide them with material for study and research, but, as the Apostle observes, in order that these Divine Oracles might “instruct us to salvation, by the faith which is in Christ Jesus” and “that the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.”[35]
CJ
 
Here’s the problem I have with that. It’s a matter of ends justifying the means. If I deny evolution and an ancient earth – two things which I consider, based on the scientific evidence, to have been substantially proven beyond a reasonable doubt – so that Christian faith can spread, then I’m essentially lying to produce the effect of spreading faith, and how is that behavior consistent with the teaching of the faith I’m supposed to be spreading (i.e., “thou shalt not bear false witness”)?

–Mike
Mike, you are too smart and too devout to conflate [what appears to *you to be compelling evidence based on] scientific theories with Divine Revelation. The so called ‘facts’ of evolution are ultimately an aticle of faith. Evolution can no more be proven (hence earning placement in the column of Truth) than the existence of aliens. Truth became flesh and dwelled among us.

Evolution takes limited samples, erects models based on an atheistic cosmological assumption and philsophical predisposition, extrapolates that model across extravagant amounts of time that no one can fathom under unobservable conditions, and then arrives at the position that God goofed in Genesis.

A fact is that water becomes ice at 32 degrees and steam at 212. Speculating that a man evolved from a monkey is neither a fact, science nor truth.

Let us recall the LORD’s reply to Job when He questioned God: “Where were you when I created the universe?”

Shalom,
Johnny
 
Ignoring historical criticism introduces a lie into any contemporary Christian faith that claims history as its basis. It is not acceptable to assert that one’s views are historically accurate and that the Catholic church and every practice in it are historically based while at the same time rejecting the standards and practices of modern historical method and historical thinking. Such a lie undermines Christian practice and spirituality which must have to do with the truth and the real.

This faith tradition can no longer rest on the fading theistic claims of yesterday. The presuppositions upon which Christianity was built are not today sustainable. When one listens to the guardians of the various ecclesiastical establishments, as they seek to explain these statistical realities (loss of members, few clergy), one is amazed at the capacity for self-deception.

The current drastic decline in the power of institutional Christianity is occurring not because of liberal compromises with the ancient verities, but because the traditional basis upon which the faith system has been erected can no longer be sustained. The heart will never worship what the mind rejects.

Appeals to New Testament canon as a timeless source of unchanging Truth obscure both the living processes of religious faith and practice, and suffocate human responsibility under the cloak of authoritarianism.

Tradition is not simply the unchanged materials handed down from the past; rather people living in the present decide on and indeed fight for what will constitute their true tradition. In doing so, they appropriate some elements of the past and reject others. Even the elements of the past that are kept take on new meanings by being deployed in new and changing contexts.
You do realize that you are radically defining terms like tradition, faith, etc… don’t you?

And your opinion that liberalizing the eternal Proclamation is not damaging the Church and eroding Church attendance doesn’t pass the common sense test. Drive downtown in your city. Which churches are drying up? The mainline, liberal protestant churches. What churches are bursting at the seams? The Bible-only ‘fundamentalist’ churches.

To all readers:
This is not a Catholic position by any stretch of the imagination:
This faith tradition can no longer rest on the fading theistic claims of yesterday. The presuppositions upon which Christianity was built are not today sustainable.
 
This faith tradition can no longer rest on the fading theistic claims of yesterday. The presuppositions upon which Christianity was built are not today sustainable. When one listens to the guardians of the various ecclesiastical establishments, as they seek to explain these statistical realities (loss of members, few clergy), one is amazed at the capacity for self-deception.

The current drastic decline in the power of institutional Christianity is occurring not because of liberal compromises with the ancient verities, but because the traditional basis upon which the faith system has been erected can no longer be sustained. The heart will never worship what the mind rejects.

Appeals to New Testament canon as a timeless source of unchanging Truth obscure both the living processes of religious faith and practice, and suffocate human responsibility under the cloak of authoritarianism.

Tradition is not simply the unchanged materials handed down from the past; rather people living in the present decide on and indeed fight for what will constitute their true tradition. In doing so, they appropriate some elements of the past and reject others. Even the elements of the past that are kept take on new meanings by being deployed in new and changing contexts.
Here’s the whole article by the Rt. Rev. John S.Spong for those interested:
vqronline.org/articles/2000/spring/spong-christ/

Interesting quote:
  1. Theism, as a way of defining God is dead. God can no longer be understood with credibility as a Being supernatural in power, dwelling above the sky and prepared to invade human history periodically to enforce the divine will. So, most theological God-talk is today meaningless unless we find a new way to speak of God.
John Shelby Spong (born 16 June 1931 in Charlotte, North Carolina, U.S.) is the retired Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Newark (based in Newark, New Jersey). He is a liberal Christian theologian, biblical scholar, religion commentator and author. He promotes traditionally liberal causes, such as racial equality. He also calls for a fundamental rethinking of Christian belief, away from theism and from the afterlife as reward or punishment for human behavior.

Spong’s ideas have received strong criticism from some other theologians, notably the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams (when Williams was the Bishop of Monmouth).
 
Mike, you are too smart and too devout to conflate [what appears to *you
to be compelling evidence based on] scientific theories with Divine Revelation. The so called ‘facts’ of evolution are ultimately an aticle of faith. Evolution can no more be proven (hence earning placement in the column of Truth) than the existence of aliens. Truth became flesh and dwelled among us.

Evolution takes limited samples, erects models based on an atheistic cosmological assumption and philsophical predisposition, extrapolates that model across extravagant amounts of time that no one can fathom under unobservable conditions, and then arrives at the position that God goofed in Genesis.

A fact is that water becomes ice at 32 degrees and steam at 212. Speculating that a man evolved from a monkey is neither a fact, science nor truth.
If scientific evidence were not at the level it is today, I’d probably agree with you, but I don’t think you’re aware of the level of scientific evidence favoring evolution that exists today.

First, there’s the matter of the age of the earth. Most young-earth-creationists (YECs for short) will refuse to accept an age of the earth that is more than 10,000 years. However, there are four independent lines of scientific evidence (tree ring data, varve analysis, C-14 dating, and ice core sampling) that confirm the earth has existed for at least 40,000 years. Now, sure, 40,000 years isn’t the 5 billion years that mainstream science agrees upon, but it’s still four times the maximum allowed by “creation scientists”. So “creation scientists” are dead in the water so far as their age of the earth constraints go, and if that’s the case, why not, then, accept mainstream science’s 5 billion year reckoning for the age of the earth?

So, we’ve got an estimate of the age of the earth from mainstream science that accomodates evolution, but that’s just indirect evidence. Do we have direct evidence of evolution? Yes, actually, we do. First, we have the existence of transitional fossils. They do exist. No, they aren’t perfect “halfway points” between prior known species, but we shouldn’t expect them to be. The “tree of evolution” is more like a bush, and many more species branch off and die out than branch off and develop into another species. (Archaeopteryx, for example, is likely one of these “dead-end” branches, not a “pure” transitional species between dinosaurs and birds.) Second, we have the geographical distribution of species. Almost all marsupials exist only in Australia and New Zealand. A “Noah’s Ark” style of migration cannot account for this. The distribution of bicolor and tricolor vision among primates (including humans) also follows an evolutionary pattern of geographical isolation followed by separate genetic development. Finally, there’s evidence of common ancestry among species located in DNA. By itself, the fact that humans and chimps share between 95 and 99% of their DNA is not evidence of common ancestry, but when you look at shared mutations in human and chimp DNA (e.g., where the same 13 non-functional copies of the same original gene are located in the same places on 23 different chromosomes), there’s no question that the mutations had to have happened in a common ancestor species and were then passed down to both the human and chimp species that branched out from that common ancestor species.

Again, I recommend the following books to get you up to speed on the current state of evolutionary science:

Endless Forms Most Beautiful by Sean Carroll
The Making of the Fittest by Sean Carroll
Relics of Eden by Daniel J. Fairbanks
Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why It Matters by Donald Prothero

–Mike
 
Just want to put myself on record as never having been a fan of Spong. He’s always been what I’ve considered “over the top” and “Christian in name only” (which, for all I know, is what I am).

–Mike
 
So Abraham need not have been the historical ancestor of the Jews, or of Christ? Do you honestly think that’s what the Apostle Paul believed?

–Mike
Let me clarify it

The creation story is symbolism showing Man’s fall

The tower of babel symbolic story of different languages and cultures etc. The writers wrote in a way for people to understand

Noah and his ark, showing how God gave humans another chance. It is factual though that there was a great flood of the Earth.
 
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