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mpartyka
Guest
I was simply pointing out that Pope Benedict’s denouncing evolutionary atheism does not equate to a ringing endorsement of biblical literalism where Genesis 3 is concerned.
–Mike
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–Mike
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StAnastasia
Guest
Mike, I think you are correct. Pope Benedict is too good a theologian to interpret Genesis in a woodenly literal sense. “The First Adam” is a wonderful theological metaphor, a type for Christ.
StAnastasia
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
*scandalum pusillanimorum
*
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StAnastasia
Guest
Quite true. And theology has developed without ceasing, from the Council of Jerusalem to 2008. We further its development daily. I am particularly excited about the conference on evolution in Rome this coming March, at which I will be privileged to confer with fellow theologians. IDers and YECs have not been invited, so we should have a theologically constructive time of it!
StAnastasia
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wildleafblower
Guest
Obviously, you don’t know anything about heresy or you wouldn’t have make such a statement. Read and learn:Be my guest. I’m not going to waste my time trying to reason with someone [Johnny Catholic] whose only notion of theological discussion appears to consist in accusing others of heresy
**CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH **
Founded in 1542 by Pope Paul III with the Constitution “Licet ab initio,” the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith was originally called the Sacred Congregation of the Universal Inquisition as its duty was to defend the Church from heresy. It is the oldest of the Curia’s nine congregations.
Pope St. Pius X in 1908 changed the name to the Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office. It received its current name in 1965 with Pope Paul VI. Today, according to Article 48 of the Apostolic Constitution on the Roman Curia, “Pastor Bonus”, promulgated by the Holy Father John Paul II on June 28, 1988, «the duty proper to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is to promote and safeguard the doctrine on the faith and morals throughout the Catholic world: for this reason everything which in any way touches such matter falls within its competence.»
The congregation is now headed by Prefect Cardinal William Joseph Levada. It has a Secretary, His Excellency Msgr. Angelo Amato, S.D.B., an under-secretary, Fr. Joseph Augustine Di Noia, O.P., a Promotor of Justice Msgr. Charles Scicluna, and a staff of 37, according to the “Annuario Pontificio” or “Pontifical Yearbook.” It also has 23 members - cardinals, archbishops and bishops - and 33 consulters. Given the nature of its task, congregation work is divided into four distinct sections: the doctrinal office, the disciplinary office, the matrimonial office and that for priests.
The congregation, says the “Activity of the Holy See,” in conformity with its raison d’être, promotes in a collegial fashion encounters and initiatives to «spread sound doctrine and defend those points of Christian tradition which seem in danger because of new and unacceptable doctrines.»
[snip-please read]
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_pro_14071997_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_pro_14071997_en.html
You can balk till the lake runs dry since I know that I have most definately provided relevant material that you wish I hadn’t.
Oh, you could have fooled me but you didn’t. LOL!Gottle of Geer, Wow! Your subject matter on a POPE is lacking in charity and truth. And is rude, obnoxious, and darn frightening! Your theology is muddled with riddles of ideas that lack elements of truth and facts. Whereas my contributions reflect hours upon hours of research obtaining truth. Fact is here it is:
BIOGRAPHY
OF HIS HOLINESS, POPE
BENEDICT XVI
- From 1946 to 1951 he studied philosophy and theology in the Higher School of Philosophy and Theology of Freising and at the University of Munich
- In 1953 he obtained his doctorate in theology with a thesis entitled “People and House of God in St Augustine’s Doctrine of the Church”.
- Four years later, under the direction of the renowned professor of fundamental theology Gottlieb Söhngen, he qualified for University teaching with a dissertation on: “The Theology of History in St Bonaventure”.
- After lecturing on dogmatic and fundamental theology at the Higher School of Philosophy and Theology in Freising, he went on to teach at Bonn, from 1959 to1963; at Münster from 1963 to 1966 and at Tübingen from 1966 to 1969. During this last year he held the Chair of dogmatics and history of dogma at the University of Regensburg, where he was also Vice-President of the University.
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/biography/documents/hf_ben-xvi_bio_20050419_short-biography_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/b..._ben-xvi_bio_20050419_short-biography_en.html
Holy Press Office
The College of Cardinals
Biographical notes
[Updated: 19.06.2008
http://www.vatican.va/news_services...ali_biografie/cardinali_bio_agnelo_gm_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/news_services...ali_biografie/cardinali_bio_agnelo_gm_en.html
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wildleafblower
Guest
Pope Benedict never stated what you have just presented. Adam isn’t a metaphor.
For everyone, please take the time to READ the 60 pages from the following document and LEARN:
Doctrinal Elements of a Curriculum Framework
for the Development of Catechetical Materials for Young People of High School Age
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops • Washington, D.C.
The document Doctrinal Elements of a Curriculum Framework for the Development of Catechetical Materials for Young People of High School Age was developed by the Committee on Evangelization and Catechesis of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB). It was approved by the full body of the USCCB at its November 2007 General Meeting and has been authorized for publication by the undersigned.
Msgr. David J. Malloy, STD
General Secretary, USCCB
First printing, July 2008
“The definitive aim of catechesis is to put people
not only in touch but in communion, in intimacy,
with Jesus Christ” (CT, no. 5). These ends are
evident in this framework—designed to guide catechetical
instruction for young people of high-school age wherever and
however it takes place: in Catholic high schools, in parish
religious education programs, with young people schooled at
home, or within the context of the catechetical instruction
which should be part of every youth ministry program.
[snip]
Introduction
I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and your joy may be complete. (Jn 15:11)
[snip]
III. Understanding Scripture
A. Authentic interpretation of the Bible is the
responsibility of the teaching office of the Church
(CCC, nos. 85-87, 100).
[snip]
II. Who Is Jesus Christ?
II. Jesus Christ’s Revelation About God
A. Son of God from all eternity and Son of Mary from the
moment of the Incarnation (CCC, nos. 486, 496, 487,
501, 721-730).
- Mystery of the Incarnation: Emmanuel (God-iswith-
us) (Jn 3:16-17; CCC, no. 484).
a. **Jesus Christ is the Logos, the Word of God, the
fulfillment of God’s promise to Adam and Eve
and to the people of ancient Israel **(CCC,
nos. 761-762).
[snip] - God is Trinity: one in three Divine Persons (CCC,
no. 234).
a. This is the central mystery of our faith (CCC,
nos. 235-237).
[snip]
c. The Divine Persons are relative to one another;
each is God whole and entire; all three persons
share the same attributes, i.e., all-loving,
controversies and heresies (CCC, nos.
249-252).
b. Church teaching articulated to battle
Gnosticism, Arianism, Nestorianism,
Monophysitism (CCC, nos. 464-469).
d. Each Divine Person shows forth what is proper
to him, especially in the Incarnation and the
gift of the Holy Spirit (CCC, nos. 258, 267). - God is the Father: Jesus Christ’s Father and
our Father.
a. Jesus teaches us that God is loving, caring,
healing, forgiving, true, just.
b. God the Father’s love is faithful and eternal.
C. The Three Divine Persons of the Trinity. - The First Person of the Trinity: God the Father
(CCC, nos. 238-242).
a. God the Father is the source of all that is, - Unique role of Mary, the Mother of God.
a. The Annunciation and Mary’s “yes”
(CCC, nos. 484-487).
b. An unparalleled recipient of God’s grace:
Immaculate Conception; Assumption
(CCC, nos. 490-494, 966).
c. Mary is ever-virgin (CCC, nos. 499-507).
[snip]
III. The Mission of Jesus Christ
(The Paschal Mystery)
[snip]
I. The Goodness of Creation and
Our Fall from Grace
B. The fall from grace: **Original Sin **(Gn 3; rom 5:12;
I. The Goodness of Creation and
Our Fall from Grace
A. **The Creation of the World and our first parents **(CCC,
nos. 54, 279-282). - revelation as found in the book of Genesis.
a. Understanding literary forms in Scripture
(CCC, no. 289).
b. Genesis 1–11 conveys religious truth rather
than science (CCC, nos. 283-289).
c. The book reveals truth about which science
and history can only speculate.
[snip]
B. The fall from grace: Original Sin (Gn 3; rom 5:12;
CCC, nos. 55, 309-314, 385-390, 1707). - The full meaning of the doctrine of Original Sin
is revealed only in the light of the Death and
resurrection of Jesus. It is essential to belief in
the mystery of Christ. The whole of human
history is marked by the sin of the first parents
(CCC, no. 1708). - The fall of the angels (CCC, nos. 391-395).
- The rebellion of Adam and Eve and its
consequences.
a. **The rebellion of Adam and Eve was a sin of
disobedience toward God, a rejection of a Godcentered
life and the choice of a self-centered
life **(CCC, nos. 396-398).
b. **The consequences of Adam and Eve’s sin: loss
of paradise, original grace, original holiness, and
original justice **(CCC, nos. 399-401).
c. Original Sin and its consequences for all:
suffering, death, a tendency toward sin, need
for salvation (CCC, nos. 402-409).
II. The Promise of a Messiah
A. The first prophecy of the Messiah, God’s promise to
redeem the world (Gn 3:15; CCC, no. 410). - **God’s immediate response to Adam and Eve’s sin is
to promise redemption; this is the Proto-Evangelium,
the first announcement of the Good News **(CCC,
nos. 410-412). - Promise endures despite the escalation of sin (the
Book of Genesis: the murder of Abel, the Tower of
Babel, the Flood) (CCC, nos. 55-64).
B. Longing for the fulfillment of the promise (CCC, nos.
121-123). - God’s covenants with Old Testament peoples
(CCC, nos. 129-130).
a. The covenants are solemn commitments
between God and human beings (CCC, no. 56).
b. **God made a covenant with Noah, with
Abraham, and with Moses **(CCC, nos. 56-64).
[snip]
http://www.usccb.org/education/framework.pdf
A gift from our God.
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Catholic_Johnny
Guest
The defense rests, your honor. No further witnesses.
- Karl Barth:theologian
- Bultmann: theologian
They have something to say. Popes OTOH…
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Catholic_Johnny
Guest
You and Mr. Gottle are not talking about the*** development*** (ie, expansion, explanation, continuing illuminations of the Divine Logos) of Catholic theology; you two are talking about the [supposed] evolution of Catholic theology.
That viewpoint is heterodox and pregnant with the spirit and father of all errors.
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TMC
Guest
Johnny, I have been following this discussion and I am not sure of your position on a couple of things.
Is it your position that there came a point in time when it was no longer appropriate to make any changes in Catholic theology - whether those changes are labled developments or evolutions? Or is it that current theologians (or most of them) are simply wrong, so that the “developments” are also wrong?
On a related note, do you believe that the deposit of faith given to the apostles was complete? By complete I mean not only that the faith of the apostles was correct and sufficient for salvation, but also that the apostles knew a detailed Christology, understood, as best as man is able, the afterlife (Limbo, purgatory, etc.), and so forth. Or do you believe that their understanding was limited (not poor, just not complete) and we are charged with working the rest out. In other words, is theology a process of discovery, or a process of rediscovering lost knowledge?
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StAnastasia
Guest
Evolution, development – same thing.
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StAnastasia
Guest
For example, the eschatological expectation of an imminent return of Christ. Again and again for the last 2,00 years, and no doubt for the next 2,000 years, Christians have looked to – and the wilder ones have prepared for – an imminent return. It’s no more likely to happen in 2008 than in 2000 or 1000 or shortly after Pentecost. Were the early Christians wrong? Or looking in the wrong place? Or did they misunderstand the eschatological promise in relating it to this world?
The theology of the last things has evolved, developed, changed, been refined and clarified.
StAnastasia
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StAnastasia
Guest
TMC, you raise an interesting point in Purgatory, born in the middle ages. What’s the theological future of Purgatory? Even more interesting is the theology of Limbo, now largely abandoned. (Who but a sadist would confine unbaptized infants to Limbo?) With good reason the Church has jettisoned that one.
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Catholic_Johnny
Guest
TMC:
If you have followed this thread then surely you will note that my position is the same as our Blessed Savior’s: the Spirit comes first, and then the reason/rationale. Therefore, the spirit by which you interpret this discussion is determinant of your necessary conclusion.
Neither I nor the Fathers admit to any deficiency in the transmission of the Gospel from Jesus to the Apostles nor of the Apostles to the Fathers. Doubts about epistemology are a recent novelty and had been settled by the Council of Carthage in 390 AD.
Changes? No. The Catholic Church never makes changes. The Gospel is Eternal, inerrant. No change is possible. Clarifications of meaning to contemporary generations is necessary, but these are not changes. They are contemporary enunciations of the faith once delivered to all the saints.
The Church MUST adapt it’s APPLICATION of the kerygma to each generation and its own unique challenges. It can NEVER change the kerygma or compromise its eternal meaning. That is precisely what you read on Gottle of Geer and StAnastasia’s posts. They do not support an eternal, unchanging revelation but an evolutionary man-centered interpretation bound to a theory that man is improving in his rational thought due to the processes of natural selection.
Do what you may, but test the spirits as St. John instructed. If you are in the Spirit, you will know that their interpretations are not inspiried by the Spirit of God. “The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God”. St Paul, 1st Corinthians
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Catholic_Johnny
Guest
The Word of God rebukes you. 2nd Peter 3:
Warning: those that follow the theology proposed by StAnastasia need to weigh the Apostle Peter’s words very, very carefully in the presence of the Holy Spirit.
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StAnastasia
Guest
Perhaps he forgot to set his alarm clock.
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StAnastasia
Guest
Call it what you will, but of course the Church makes changes. Look Vatican II. Look at “nulla salus extra ecclesiam.” Look at Limbo, now largely abandoned. Look at the introduction of female altar servers. Changes, evolution, enunciations of the faith once delivered…
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Neil_Anthony
Guest
Was there ever a dogma or doctrine stating when Christ would return? Is that what you’re claiming?
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Catholic_Johnny
Guest
“Jesus Christ the same, yesterday, today and forever.”
Hebrews 13:8
You are speaking by the spirit of the Enemy, not the Spirit of God.
Those that are full of the Spirit of God, oppose this spirit, and defeat it with Gospel weapons.
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