Scripture: What's myth and what's history?

[John_oxios]

I am a Christian Priest in Holy Orders my friend, and I have been for over 40 years. Please read what is posted and not what you THINK was posted. If you have read it, then please read it again, and try your very best to understand it.

May the blessings of Jesus Christ our Saviour be with you on this Holy Feast of Christmas.

A Christian Priest of Holy Orders (Celi Dei) who doesn’t believe in the Gospels as factual?
Historical? Christianity early beginnings are written and told through Christ’s Church, the apostles, and inspired by the Holy Spirit, so that we may all become witnesses to Christ’s life death and resurection…if you don’t believe that, Might as well be pagan, a Jew, a Jehovah witness… anything But Christian oh that’s right there are groups who call themselves Christian because they believe in Christ teachings not his Resurrection or His Church.
I gotta ask?
Is Celi Dei one of those feel good religions? where anything goes, everything is okay?

God bless,
John

 

[PeterClatworthy]

Where did I say what you allege?

What do you mean by “feel good” religion?

Uncovered female heads - anything goes - in Catholic churches?

And a new question, well … two:

Are you joking when you give the impression that you do not know what the Celtic Christian Church is? Have you really never heard of St. Maelruain; St Finnian; St Columba of Iona; St Patrick of Armagh; the Canons Regular of St Peter’s at York (York Minster)? You amaze me.

 

[John_oxios]

Where did I say what you allege?

What do you mean by “feel good” religion?

Uncovered female heads - anything goes - in Catholic churches?

And a new question, well … two:

Are you joking when you give the impression that you do not know what the Celtic Christian Church is? Have you really never heard of St. Maelruain; St Finnian; St Columba of Iona; St Patrick of Armagh; the Canons Regular of St Peter’s at York (York Minster)? You amaze me.

Hey PeterC,
I’ve heard of the Celtic Catholic Church, Not Celi De, which was dissolved since 1541, (See I do some homework) what was really throwing me off was that Masonic url on the bottom of your signature. Enlightenment by degree from which all wisdom comes by the head Mason… isn’t that more Gnostic?
What else threw mew a curve is the fact you can place the Bible on the same shelves as fiction,ancient mythology,ancient philosophy, fables and folktales… and that you can claim any historian worth his salt couldn’t take the Word of God as fact.
Did St Patrick teach that? Maybe those Celtic monks lived a monastic life way too long. So enlighten me, when was it brought? 2002? Is that why you’d choose to wipe out two thousand yrs. of Church History? Better yet 6000 yrs. of Salvation history? As poppy-cock?
I like to better understand other religions, so why does Celi de, or you choose to discredit Biblical history?
God Bless,
John

 

[PeterClatworthy]

Hey PeterC,
I’ve heard of the Celtic Catholic Church, Not Celi De, which was dissolved since 1541, (See I do some homework) what was really throwing me off was that Masonic url on the bottom of your signature. Enlightenment by degree from which all wisdom comes by the head Mason… isn’t that more Gnostic?
What else threw mew a curve is the fact you can place the Bible on the same shelves as fiction,ancient mythology,ancient philosophy, fables and folktales… and that you can claim any historian worth his salt couldn’t take the Word of God as fact.
Did St Patrick teach that? Maybe those Celtic monks lived a monastic life way too long. So enlighten me, when was it brought? 2002? Is that why you’d choose to wipe out two thousand yrs. of Church History? Better yet 6000 yrs. of Salvation history? As poppy-cock?
I like to better understand other religions, so why does Celi de, or you choose to discredit Biblical history?
God Bless,
John

John, you seem to have forgotten to answer my questions: I am happy to wait until you do.

First of all, where did I say in any of my postings that I did not believe in the birth death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ?

Secondly, what do you mean exactly by a “feel good” religion please, so that I might give you a sensible answer? Do you not feel good about your religion?

For instance, do your female parishioners still cover their heads when worshipping Our Lord, as required by the Word of God in the Holy Bible, or have you changed the rules to make them feel good? Now that is a prime example of what I would call “anything goes”.

We don’t want to confuse or divert attention do we? Once you answer my questions I will happily answer yours.

Peter

 

[John_oxios]

PeterClatworthy;6094245]John, you seem to have forgotten to answer my questions…

Hello PeterC,

Wassa matter u, you can’t help me understand where you coming from? With or without my so-called ‘diversions.’ Wassa matta u can’t concentrate?
For a preist of forty yrs.? Why keep it all to yourself… You stated the Bible is not historical and now you can’t back it up???
You monkish community dissolved in the mid sixteenth century, when was it brought back… maybe it disappeared because it was too ascetic for the people to observe.

Let me start off with:  
                Rom 3:9,10 	"What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all; for I have already charged that **all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin**,    as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;"   

           **You stated the Bible was Non historicaL**, well??? That any historian worth his salt couldn't believe it.   You called it .  'My' (meaning John's history).

You being a ‘priest’ for some forty yrs. will remember the Latin Rite Mass, which I have had some experience with Before we Changed to English (or Vernacular) in these here United States.

Do you actually mean that you have issues with a woman who does not cover her head, when entering the Church? Back in the day all she had to cover her hair with was her on braided hair, as opposed to shaving their heads for the pagan god… remember the Church is in its early stages, they were infants in Christ and Paul was turning them from their pagan ways And instructing them about Christ.

You’d have me believe that the Bible is unhistorical, myth, folklore and now your demanding absolute adherence?
That verse in the Bible has to do with a lot more than covering their head with a scarf or a hat… its about practicing old habit and starting a new one. Back in the Men and women wore their hair adorning it after their favorite god… Women who wore

Doesn’t Paul tell us we are not under the Law?

Does or does no the Bible reflect the Traditions,traditions, culture, and customs of the time? Do you expect everyone to live like Quakers also ?

Does not the Bible say,
Col 2:8 See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ.

Do you really believe Christ will judge women for not wearing their heads covered at Worship during the Divine liturgy, the Mass?

do you take issue with the Sabbath, practiced on Sundays’?

Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath.

Paul didn’t go into communities and telling them they’re doing everything wrong! He went in and worked with what they had, they would not have listened to him, instead he worked with what they had.
there’s ethnic Catholicism, Traditional Catholicism, traditions of Catholicism, Cultural Catholicism, all of which is why we have some 22 Catholic Church’s We all Participate and Celebrate the Eucharist and Divine Liturgy in almost the same manner.

Jesus did the most to liberate women, from being treated as less than men, a few women are even great saints and Doctors of the Church… why treat them as less than,
as did the Jews? Which in fact Paul is writing too? Christians who had come from the Jewish community… it was their own experience that taught them a women’s head ought to be covered??

Does not Paul state that a women’s hair is given to her as a covering?
two vss, later??

1Cr 11:15 but if a woman has long hair, it is her pride? For her hair is given to her for a covering.

Is Man independent of woman?? Neither is Man independent of woman, or women independent of man, men and women need each other, so there is ‘no lording’ over each other.

". “Even after he has stressed the subordination of women, Paul goes on to stress even more directly the essential partnership of man and woman. Neither can live without the other. If there is subordination, it is in order that the partnership may be more fruitful and lovely for both.” (Wm. Barclay)

We Worship equally.
As far as this change, God gave the Holy Spirit to guide His Church, so that it is a Church of the living Word, not a Church of a book alone… that’s what got the Hebrew community all convoluted they developed 613 precepts to interpret different scenarios to where or how to apply the LAW.
The Church grows… and grows… it is the Living Body of Christ. We have the Holy Spirit, to Guide Christ’s Church so it grows and is not stuck in a book.

“A man who can only rule by stamping his foot had better remain single. But a man who knows how to govern his house by the love of the Lord, through sacrificial submission to the Lord, is the man who is going to make a perfect husband. The woman who cannot submit to an authority like that had better remain single.” (Redpath)

Does the woman with a hemorrhage who touched Jesus, was a veil the requirement to be healed ? or was it her astounding Faith?
The Samaritan woman at the well? When she asked Jesus to drink of the living water? was a veil required? When she goes back to the community and proclaims Christ, does the Bible say how important her veil was or the importance of her belief?..
Continued next post
You going to ask more questions or crete other diversions??
God bless,
John

 

[John_oxios]

John, you seem to have forgotten to answer my questions: I am happy to wait until you do.

First of all, where did I say in any of my postings that I did not believe in the birth death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ?

Secondly, what do you mean exactly by a “feel good” religion please, so that I might give you a sensible answer? Do you not feel good about your religion?

For instance, do your female parishioners still cover their heads when worshipping Our Lord, as required by the Word of God in the Holy Bible, or have you changed the rules to make them feel good? Now that is a prime example of what I would call “anything goes”.
Peter

Cont’d

A woman’s salvation ought not be on a condition of her wearing a veil, but her Love and Faith in Christ and His Church.
do you want to talk Ole Testament?? The lord says to serve him with sincerity and in faithfulness… (Joshua 24:14) Ruth was a Moabite, Rahab and her family were saved because she was wearing a veil Or because She believed the men of God and protected them
Was Israel saved because their roots came from people who wore veils? Or because of who they were?

Eze 16:3 and say, Thus says the Lord GOD to Jerusalem: Your origin and your birth are of the land of the Canaanites; your father was an Amorite, and your mother a Hittite.
Eze 16:45 You are the daughter of your mother, who loathed her husband and her children; and you are the sister of your sisters, who loathed their husbands and their children.** Your mother was a Hittite and your father an Amorite.**"

Or were they saved because of Christ? Personally I think the Latin Rite Mass was and is beautiful, today psalms and Liturgy sung in the Latin are quite beautiful to hear.

Outside of Custom and tradition veils played no part in Salvation history… Salvation is through Christ.

There are evangelical/ assembly/congregational communities who’s form of praise and ‘Worship’ is mainly singing, thye really don’t care how you believe, or live as long as you say the you believe in Jesus Christ everything else doesn’t matter…

 

[PeterClatworthy]

1 Corinthians 11:5 “But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.”

How inconvenient for you, but “anything goes” in Rome? “Feel happy” about it?

 

[John_oxios]

1 Corinthians 11:5 “But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.”

How inconvenient for you, but “anything goes” in Rome? “Feel happy” about it?

Hello PeterC.,
Graet Comeback, you quote scripture like a Protestant… see they are stuck in the written word They blurt out one pretext and then don’t stick around to find out the context of the Verse, paragraph and Chapter was about.

Would covering your head be according to human tradition? Is it one of the ten Commandments? Does it go against Jesus Command, Love yourself.
Does it go against your heart, to see women unveiled @ Mass? Maybe you ought to be paying closer attention to the message of the Gospels than what people are wearing!
Pauls Letters were written to specific communities and were addressing then known problems in the early Church communities.

Catholicism is not a religion of the Book, The N.T. came out of the Church through the Holy Spirit. Catholicism is a religion of the Living Word, Oral Traditon, and Apostolic teachings, Again Paul in 1 Corinthians was addressing Jewish Converts to Christianity. Biblically Gentiles were only required to follow the Noahide Covenant laws, pre Mosaic Laws, The Jewish Chirstians were trying to make gentile christians to Become Jews, you seem to think that Celi De and women who wear veils enter heaven???

If that is your tradition, as a Celtic Church, that’s perfectly OKAY, but why force that on us as if we were ungodly because it is absent from the RCC?
You have conveniently left this verse out of your Bible,

1Cr 11:15 but if a woman has long hair, it is her pride? For her hair is given to her for a covering.

basically 'your' Celi De became extanct because it was to Ascetic for ordinary men and women to follow.  
  You forgot to expound on when , how, and why some brought back a 450 yr. old defunct religion.   
     You also forgot to explain why you think the Bible is a myth, that historians couldn't believe as fact?  And why you called it my History when I back it up with Facts, and my faith in the written Word?

Ball in your Park, Or are you gonna keep acting like a Protestant throwing pretexts at me!
text without context= pretext, I don’t hear/see a priest of forty yrs. experience in your writings! You’re suppose to be able to instruct people about your teachings. All I hear from you is criticizing mine, just like a Protestant does, It was their constant criticism of the Catholic Faith, the falsehoods they teach of it and their refusal to look at what the catholic Church actual taught, when I questioned them on their error of it, which brought me right back to Catholicism… Because if you believe you are teaching the Truth (1) You wouldn’t need to bash or lie about anyone else’s faith.

  Ever hear of Cardinal Neuman? He said, "To be steeped in Church History is to cease to be a Protestant"

So I guess its easier to wipe out Church history so you can print your own interpretation without being questioned.

Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?”

If you want to live like a Celtic monk did 450 yrs ago why do you compel us too?
Were you Ordained in the Latin Rite?
God bless,
John

 

[John_oxios]

1 Corinthians 11:5 “But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.”

How inconvenient for you, but “anything goes” in Rome? “Feel happy” about it?

Hey Peter C,
try this:
ichthys.com/mail-hats.htm

Question:

Do women have to wear veils or some kind of hat in church? We apparently got on that subject some how at church study, and so far it shows that women are supposed to wear a veil. But I don’t know any churches that actually do this. Which is right? I’m looking forward for your answer.

Response:
Glad to be of assistance. In my view, the 1st Corinthians 11 passage (the one responsible for “hats in church”) has been widely misunderstood. Women are not required by the Bible to wear hats (or veils). It should be remembered that in this epistle, Paul is addressing many abuses on the part of the Corinthian church (“being baptized for the dead” for example: 15:29; cf. also abuses at the Lord’s supper: 11:17-34; abuse of gifts: 12-14; marriage abuses: chapter 7; as well as correcting them on the topics of divisiveness, failure to judge immorality, going to law before unbelievers, etc.). This passage in chapter eleven is addressing another such abuse, namely, the following of the Greek custom of disheveling the hair and marring the appearance when in mourning (something often done in pagan rites of ritual mourning as well - clearly an abomination: cf. Ezek.8:14-15). I have treated this passage in some detail in part 3 of the Satanic rebellion series, and here is the translation I give there: see 1Cor 11:5-12).

In the verses which follow (1Cor.11:13-16), the issue is entirely one hair, making it clear that hair, not hats or veils, is what Paul has been talking about all along (cf. v.15 “for long hair has been given to her for a covering”). So deliberately and obviously mussed, or torn, or disheveled hair is, in effect, a sign of rebellion against proper authority and a mark of disrespect on a woman’s part as Paul shows us above. No wearing of hats (or veils) is necessary to avoid the stricture given here, nor any elaborate hair-styling (for the other extreme see: 1Tim.2:9-10; 1Pet.3:3-5), rather only the avoidance of inappropriate displays by means of the hair. It is also important to note that in this last verse above Paul also hastens to make clear that we are all equal in the Lord, even though we have specific roles to play in this life. Here’s the link for a fuller treatment of all this: 1st Corinthians 11:5-12

Hope this is helpful,

Yours in Christ,

Bob L.

 

[John_oxios]

1 Corinthians 11:5 “But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.”

How inconvenient for you, but “anything goes” in Rome? “Feel happy” about it?

Hello Peter C,
So far you’ve given me One Verse, out of context, I can do this all day

1Ti 2:15 Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.

Paul also writes:

1Cr 10:15 I speak as to sensible men; judge for yourselves what I say.

1Cr 11:13 Judge for yourselves; is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?

Customs change, back in the Corinthian Church, Paul was using the ‘veil’ to turn them away from Pagan and Jewish practices… Is there any need for that today for men and women born and raised in the Church?

another note: The moral law requires all women to wear the veil on their hearts.

A woman should not wear the veil on her head, until she is wearing it first on her heart.

God Bless,
john

 

[John_oxios]

I am a Christian Priest in Holy Orders my friend, and I have been for over 40 years. Please read what is posted and not what you THINK was posted. If you have read it, then please read it again, and try your very best to understand it.
.

Okay PeterC,
Sometimes things get lost in the transation, in this case digitally.

Your statements: PeterC
Post #509
As I said, our faith is the most important thing, and if you believe that the Holy Bible is a statement of your history, then I am happy for you.

#506
The whole point is that the Holy Bible is clearly NOT a history text book, and it is folly to try to rationalise it in this way.

It is a complicated amalgam of myths, legends and facts. No historian worth his salt would discount the value of myths and legends, or try to claim them as facts, whilst even “facts” themselves are either modified or changed by revelation.

The message of God is surely far more important than microscopic examination
#509
As I said, our faith is the most important thing, and if you believe that the Holy Bible is a statement of your history, then I am happy for you.

As A Roman Catholic, the Historical accuracy of the Life, death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ as witnessed by His apostles is most important, the Church is a living witness to that truth and the Truth of the Gospels. Ever hear the term Salvation History?
The rest of the Bible attests to God working in mens lives. What is the central theme of the Bible… Nuptials God and Man, man and God.

  In Post 509 you called it my history, I took this to mean it wasn't your history also.

In 506, you stated, “the message of God is far more important than microscopic examination.” Paul tells us to test everything and hold it up to examination.
1Th 5:21 but test everything; hold fast what is good,

The Word of God ought to be held up to microscopic examination because it is Truth,
The Prophets were tested, Christ was held to three trials to shake the truth from Him,

Jhn 18:37 Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. For this I was born, and for this I** have come into the world, to bear witness to the truth. Every one who is of the truth hears my voice.**

Luke tells us of his Gospel:
Luk 1:4 that you may know the truth concerning the things of which you have been informed.

Paul affirms he is speaking the truth:
Act 26:25 But Paul said, "I am not mad, most excellent Festus, but I am speaking the sober truth.
Rom 9:1 I am speaking the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit,

The Bible warns us:
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth"

2Th 2:12 so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

It is our obligation to speak the truth of Jesus Christ and His written Word to those who do not understand it or question it
Peter tells us:
1Pe 3:14 But even if you do suffer for righteousness’ sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled,

15 but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence;

:16 and keep your conscience clear, so that, when you are abused, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.

:17 For it is better to suffer for doing right, if that should be God’s will, than for doing wrong.

Isn’t it the suffering for the Truth in us that wins over the nonbelievers? Don’t they ask us what gets us through our suffering?

How can you defend something you can’t believe in like the History of God working in mens’ lives? Its what makes us Christians… not blind faith, but faith that the Church, Christ bride, His Body, affirms the written word of God, His Bible as God’s Truth, His Works.

Was it St. Cyprian who said,“You can’t have God as your Father, if you refuse to have the Church as your Mother.”

Once you start denying the Church, the Bible, as not all the truth,well you’ve just shot a bunch of wholes in your own Christian faith. Unless of course you’re not Christian?

esplain to me how it can be otherwise?
God Bless,
John

 

[adriancombe]

Hey Peter C,
try this:
ichthys.com/mail-hats.htm

Question:

Do women have to wear veils or some kind of hat in church? We apparently got on that subject some how at church study, and so far it shows that women are supposed to wear a veil. But I don’t know any churches that actually do this. Which is right? I’m looking forward for your answer.

Response:
Glad to be of assistance. In my view, the 1st Corinthians 11 passage (the one responsible for “hats in church”) has been widely misunderstood. Women are not required by the Bible to wear hats (or veils). It should be remembered that in this epistle, Paul is addressing many abuses on the part of the Corinthian church (“being baptized for the dead” for example: 15:29; cf. also abuses at the Lord’s supper: 11:17-34; abuse of gifts: 12-14; marriage abuses: chapter 7; as well as correcting them on the topics of divisiveness, failure to judge immorality, going to law before unbelievers, etc.). This passage in chapter eleven is addressing another such abuse, namely, the following of the Greek custom of disheveling the hair and marring the appearance when in mourning (something often done in pagan rites of ritual mourning as well - clearly an abomination: cf. Ezek.8:14-15). I have treated this passage in some detail in part 3 of the Satanic rebellion series, and here is the translation I give there: see 1Cor 11:5-12).

In the verses which follow (1Cor.11:13-16), the issue is entirely one hair, making it clear that hair, not hats or veils, is what Paul has been talking about all along (cf. v.15 “for long hair has been given to her for a covering”). So deliberately and obviously mussed, or torn, or disheveled hair is, in effect, a sign of rebellion against proper authority and a mark of disrespect on a woman’s part as Paul shows us above. No wearing of hats (or veils) is necessary to avoid the stricture given here, nor any elaborate hair-styling (for the other extreme see: 1Tim.2:9-10; 1Pet.3:3-5), rather only the avoidance of inappropriate displays by means of the hair. It is also important to note that in this last verse above Paul also hastens to make clear that we are all equal in the Lord, even though we have specific roles to play in this life. Here’s the link for a fuller treatment of all this: 1st Corinthians 11:5-12

Hope this is helpful,

Yours in Christ,

Bob L.

This is a plausible explanation which I’ve never heard before (and I appreciate it).

I only pause to note that the author completely misses the point of Baptism for the dead.

 

[PeterClatworthy]

Okay PeterC,
Sometimes things get lost in the transation, in this case digitally.

As A Roman Catholic, the Historical accuracy of the Life, death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ as witnessed by His apostles is most important, the Church is a living witness to that truth and the Truth of the Gospels. Ever hear the term Salvation History?
The rest of the Bible attests to God working in mens lives. What is the central theme of the Bible… Nuptials God and Man, man and God.

  In Post 509 you called it my history, I took this to mean it wasn't your history also.

In 506, you stated, “the message of God is far more important than microscopic examination.” Paul tells us to test everything and hold it up to examination.
1Th 5:21 but test everything; hold fast what is good,

The Word of God ought to be held up to microscopic examination because it is Truth,
The Prophets were tested, Christ was held to three trials to shake the truth from Him,

Jhn 18:37 Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. For this I was born, and for this I** have come into the world, to bear witness to the truth. Every one who is of the truth hears my voice.**

Luke tells us of his Gospel:
Luk 1:4 that you may know the truth concerning the things of which you have been informed.

Paul affirms he is speaking the truth:
Act 26:25 But Paul said, "I am not mad, most excellent Festus, but I am speaking the sober truth.
Rom 9:1 I am speaking the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit,

The Bible warns us:
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth"

2Th 2:12 so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

It is our obligation to speak the truth of Jesus Christ and His written Word to those who do not understand it or question it
Peter tells us:
1Pe 3:14 But even if you do suffer for righteousness’ sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled,

15 but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence;

:16 and keep your conscience clear, so that, when you are abused, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.

:17 For it is better to suffer for doing right, if that should be God’s will, than for doing wrong.

Isn’t it the suffering for the Truth in us that wins over the nonbelievers? Don’t they ask us what gets us through our suffering?

How can you defend something you can’t believe in like the History of God working in mens’ lives? Its what makes us Christians… not blind faith, but faith that the Church, Christ bride, His Body, affirms the written word of God, His Bible as God’s Truth, His Works.

Was it St. Cyprian who said,“You can’t have God as your Father, if you refuse to have the Church as your Mother.”

Once you start denying the Church, the Bible, as not all the truth,well you’ve just shot a bunch of wholes in your own Christian faith. Unless of course you’re not Christian?

esplain to me how it can be otherwise?
God Bless,
John

Please try again:

1. Where did I say that is do not believe in the birth, death and resurrection of Our Lord Jesus Christ?
2. What do you mean by “feel good” religion?
3. Uncovered female heads, the scriptural requirement - the Word of God - anything goes in Catholic churches?

And a new question, well … two:

1. Are you joking when you give the impression that you do not know what the Celtic Christian Church is?
2. Have you really never heard of St. Maelruain; St Finnian; St Columba of Iona; St Patrick of Armagh; the Canons Regular of St Peter’s at York (York Minster)? You amaze me.

Questions such as these are the natural corrolary to your allegations and statements. There is no point in moving on until these questions are cleared up first.

 

[John_oxios]

Please try again:

1. Where did I say that is do not believe in the birth, death and resurrection of Our Lord Jesus Christ?
2. Uncovered female heads, the scriptural requirement - the Word of God - anything goes in Catholic churches?
3. Are you joking when you give the impression that you do not know what the Celtic Christian Church is?
4. Have you really never heard of St. Maelruain; St Finnian; St Columba of Iona; St Patrick of Armagh; the Canons Regular of St Peter’s at York (York Minster)? You amaze me.

Questions such as these are the natural corrolary to your allegations and statements. There is no point in moving on until these questions are cleared up first.

Hello PeterC,

I explained to you and again al you come back with is criticisms? No point in moving on??? how explaining/ clarifying yourself?
I know of the Celtic Church, UI have no experience with it, especially since you claim Celi de, dissolved 460 yrs ago is Thee Celtic Church?
Yes of heard of St. Patrick, My mother is Irish, and am born and resident of Manhattan, she still lives there, I also attended catholic School in Manhattan, and was very familiar with the latin Mass having attending every Sunday with my Mother, and as an Altar boy.

You got me on the ‘Canons of Regular of St. Peter’s at York’ then again I’m under a different Juridiction, I’ve accepted the teachings of the RCC Church and the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, and the Pope Benedict of Rome, the successor to Peter, the First Bishop of the Church of Christ.

Essentially ‘feel good religions’ are against the authority of the Pope, so they create their own, Worship and beliefs… you have yet to explain anything about yours… I still having trouble believing your call yourself a priest, I don’t hear any passion in your posts of your faith… Let’s try this, 'feel good religions, don’t like hearing about being punished for their sins, they simply believe in everything is okay, if you believe in Jesus Christ, then after that the Holy Spirit always has your back… kinda like a perverted ‘faith alone’ they are saved. But I explained that in an earlier post.
I believe I covered #3 above in earlier posts. Christ wants mercy, not sacrifice, the Church is a living organism… and you seem to be stuck on one verse… and NO reading, not listening, not comprehending any Explanation. I guess back in 1983 the Catholic Church retired the Church gestapo, (i.e. Nuns) who use to wack us in Church, catechism, Catholic School and even our parents when we stepped out of line. Yes I believe the veil is a beautiful thing in the Church… But who are we really protecting here, us or them, a beautiful womans locks can be a distraction more for us men. Just because a woman places a veil on her head doesn’t make her humble and accepting authority… lets leave the veils to those who wear them the really humble, and contrite of heart… we are all on the same journey, just in different places on the Path… besides WHO MADE YOU lord and master, Bishop over the RCC, I don’t believe the Eastern Orthodox Church holds women to wear veils nor the Byzantine rite.
You still haven’t commented on any of my posts/ or of the scriptures]

1Cr 11:13 Judge for yourselves; is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?
1Cr 11:15 but if a woman has long hair, it is her pride? For her hair is given to her for a covering.

1983 yrs after Paul, someone figured out a woman’s salvation or devotion to Christ doesn’t depend on her wearing a veil. Heck whats more important? Going to Mass every sunday and holy days of Obligation. or missing it because you left your hat, scarf,veil at home?? I remember the days women placed napkins on their heads because they forgot thier veils or lost them. That must have REALLY UPSET Christ, putting a napkin on thier heads instaed of a veil?
So you would have me believe that the RCC is an apostasy because the women don’t wear veils? We Worship in Truth.

The Catholic Church is a Living organism, Gentile men are not required to be circumcised, which the Jewish Christians were demanding… We are all accepted by Baptism, all participate in the Sacraments, ALL COME AS WE ARE sinners who are resurrected to Divine Life after each and every Absolution after Confession…
do ya really think God/Jesus/ the Holy Spirit are condemning women? the RCC? because they (the Women) don’t wear veils?? Boy I guess Jesus is really going to have issues with Nuns, who no longer wear habits but still honor their vows?
I am sure the Holy Spirit who guides the Church, the Pope, Magisterium, and even Canonized our Bible as we know it today if He had issues with women wearing veils or not, would place it on the hearts of the Pope, Church, Magisterium to do something about it!!! Me, You’re having a discussion with a guy who still kneels when receiving the Eucharist. Do I think everyone ought to kneel, yes if physically possible, do I go around telling everyone their receiving Jesus contemptuously? NOT at all, I lead by example, by my actions… so if you’d really like women to wear veils? Stand in the back of the Church and pass them out maybe even wear one yourself…

God bless,
John

 

[John_oxios]

Please try again:

1. Where did I say that is do not believe in the birth, death and resurrection of Our Lord Jesus Christ?
2. What do you mean by “feel good” religion?
3. Uncovered female heads, the scriptural requirement - the Word of God - anything goes in Catholic churches?

And a new question, well … two:

1. Are you joking when you give the impression that you do not know what the Celtic Christian Church is?
2. Have you really never heard of St. Maelruain; St Finnian; St Columba of Iona; St Patrick of Armagh; the Canons Regular of St Peter’s at York (York Minster)? You amaze me.

Questions such as these are the natural corrolary to your allegations and statements. There is no point in moving on until these questions are cleared up first.

Hey Peter C.

I believe the last line of the above quote is a very poor excuse… you simply have no idea what you are saying, you’re just stuck. What do you really know of the RCC, and why have you left it?
I’m sure it wasn’t because the women in the U.S. stopped wearing Veils!
That’s would be a sin… the worst excuse is…because you do this one thing I will no longer attend the Church Jesus Christ established? which is guided by the Holy Spirit til His return!!

Let’s see

1. you have denied the history of the Bible as fable, myth, folklore where do you draw the line?
   have answered #2 and # 3 read previous posts, #4 No, I have no experience with it!, do you actually mean they are absolutely required to wear veils??
   #5 Not saints Maelruain; or Finnian, though I’ve heard of Finnians rainbow, the Canons of St Peter of York… never heard of 'em!!! Sue me, judge me as ignorant, send me directly to hell!!!
   Now con’t from last post:

Jesus did the most to liberate women from being under male totalitarian rules of society The reason and teaching of the time writes would not be the same as today.
forty fifty yrs ago women always wore hats, big Ester bonnets, heck there’s something over here called the ‘Red Hat Society’ these ole’ gals get together and go out to lunch twenty-twenty five at clip and hold socials at restaurants and whatever all wearing some form of a red and purple hat. But outside of that in american society, women stopped wearing hats, bonnets veils… does it make them sinful? NOT AT ALL!
Jesus knows our hearts… the Sacraments, Divine Liturgy, the Gospels are not hurt a persons salvation through Christ and His Church… maybe even more women show up to Church because it isn’t enforced…

Heck there are more women at church on the regular than men, they run prayer grps, raise money for the Church, and make sure their children are brought up with sound catchesis... you want to hang them and the RCC for not being veiled? Give it up already!

isn’t there more than ONE Celtic religion?
Now who why and when did some resurrect an ascetic Religion which was 450 yrs dissolved… Are you a Druid? Bard? Ovate? are not some nature based?
Isn’t Celtic religion polytheistic? I’ve been asking you? but like a protestant you don’t explain what you beleive or why you choose to join ‘Celi De’ over the RCC. Being of Irish Catholic descent going back to my great Grandfather I can vouch we were always RC.
have a nice day
John

 

[PeterClatworthy]

John, I am not criticising, and I haven’t. All I am trying to find out is what you mean so that we can have a sensible discussion.

Well, what I can tell you ( and I am telling you, not asking you) is that the Celtic Christian faith has never been dissolved. The Harodim has been continued uninterrupted since its inception and there are many hundreds of us around the world, including the United States of America. I simply do not know where you get the idea that it was “dissolved”. Perhaps you would be so kind as to provide us with the source for your “information”.

i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/grandsecretary/StPatrickofArmagh.jpg

St Patrick of Armagh may be seen here dressed in the Order of Harodim. He was not a Roman Catholic, as I am sure you know. This stained glass window is in Armagh Abbey. None of the saints that I listed for you were Roman Catholics, they were all Celtic Johannine Christians.

The Canons Regular of St Peter’s at York were Culdee Monks, Celtic Christians as I am, and my forefathers before me.

Now we come to the clash of ideologies.

As you know, Culdees or Celtic Christians are Johannine Christians, and so on your definition, we are definitely a “feel good” religion and we thank God for that. We do not accept the concept of Petrine apostolic succession or the infallibility of the Pope. We DO take the Holy Scriptures seriously, including St John’s Gospel and ALL of the Books of the Old and New Testament.

It is a requirement in Holy Scripture that women who worship God have their heads covered. It is clearly in Holy Scripture (I quoted it earlier) and we would not change it, as you recently have for your own reasons yet to be explained. I am NOT referring to nuns but all females who worship God as Christians.

So, your earlier protestations about scripture being the Word of God and unchangeable is demonstrably a statement of convenience rather than one of serious religious doctrine. To make jokes about it is, of course, blasphemous. We are FAR more strict about these things than you are.

Now, you are as entitled to your beliefs, as I am. I will not denegrate yours in the way that you denegrate others. If you do not mind, I will restrict our discussions to the level of civilised debate, and I am quite happy to discuss the reasons for the clashes of ideology without rancour or bitterness. You too are entitled to your beliefs and to be treated with respect for your views.

 

[John_oxios]

John,

For instance, do your female parishioners still cover their heads when worshipping Our Lord, as required by the Word of God in the Holy Bible, or have you changed the rules to make them feel good? That is what I call “anything goes”.

Hello PeterC.,

from usccb.org/nab/bible_hold/1corinthians/1corinthians11.htm

USCCB footnotes on 1Cor 11

1 [11:2-14:40] This section of the letter is devoted to regulation of conduct at the liturgy. The problems Paul handles have to do with the dress of women in the assembly (1 Cor 11:3-16), improprieties in the celebration of community meals (1 Cor 11:17-34), and the use of charisms or spiritual gifts (1 Cor 12:1-14:40). The statement in 1 Cor 11:2 introduces all of these discussions, but applies more appropriately to the second (cf the mention of praise in 1 Cor 11:17 and of tradition in 1 Cor 11:23).
2 [3-16] Women have been participating in worship at Corinth without the head-covering normal in Greek society of the period. Paul’s stated goal is to bring them back into conformity with contemporary practice and propriety. In his desire to convince, he reaches for arguments from a variety of sources, though he has space to develop them only sketchily and is perhaps aware that they differ greatly in persuasiveness. 3 [3] A husband the head of his wife: the specific problem suggests to Paul the model of the head as a device for clarifying relations within a hierarchical structure. The model is similar to that developed later in greater detail and nuance in Eph 5:21-33. It is a hybrid model, for it grafts onto a strictly theological scale of existence (cf 1 Cor 3:21-23) the hierarchy of sociosexual relations prevalent in the ancient world: men, dominant, reflect the active function of Christ in relation to his church; women, submissive, reflect the passive role of the church with respect to its savior. This gives us the functional scale: God, Christ, man, woman.

4 [4-6] From man’s direct relation to Christ, Paul infers that his head should not be covered. But woman, related not directly to Christ on the scale but to her husband, requires a covering as a sign of that relationship. Shameful . . . to have her hair cut off: certain less honored classes in society, such as lesbians and prostitutes, are thought to have worn their hair close-cropped.

5 [7-9] The hierarchy of v 3 is now expressed in other metaphors: the image (eikon) and the reflected glory (doxa). Paul is alluding basically to the text of Genesis 1:27, in which mankind as a whole, the male-female couple, is created in God’s image and given the command to multiply and together dominate the lower creation. But Genesis 1:24 is interpreted here in the light of the second creation narrative in Genesis 2 in which each of the sexes is created separately (first the man and then the woman from man and for him, to be his helpmate, Genesis 2:20-23), and under the influence of the story of the fall, as a result of which the husband rules over the woman (Genesis 3:16). This interpretation splits the single image of God into two, at different degrees of closeness.

6 A sign of authority: “authority” (exousia) may possibly be due to mistranslation of an Aramaic word for “veil”; in any case, the connection with 1 Cor 11:9 indicates that the covering is a sign of woman’s subordination. Because of the angels: a surprising additional reason, which the context does not clarify. Presumably the reference is to cosmic powers who might inflict harm on women or whose function is to watch over women or the cult.

 

[John_oxios]

QUOTE=PeterClatworthy;6099663]John, I am not criticising, and I haven’t. All I am trying to find out is what you mean so that we can have a sensible discussion.
Well, what I can tell you ( and I am telling you, not asking you) is that the Celtic Christian faith has never been dissolved

.

Hello PeterC.
Thank you, So St Patrick who converted the Irish to Catholism did not recognize the Pope? What happened that you broke away from Rome and when? I’m Looking for the reference I found stating it was dissolved in 1545, it was off the net, I am surprised I didn’t include it, my apologies. But then again I may have deleted it trying to keep the post under what is it 5 or 6 thousand characters.
Sensible would mean, you acknowledge what I have written with a reply not ignore it.

Now we come to the clash of ideologies.
As you know, Culdees or Celtic Christians are Johannine Christians, and so on your definition, we are definitely a “feel good” religion and we thank God for that. We do not accept the concept of Petrine apostolic succession or the infallibility of the Pope. We DO take the Holy Scriptures seriously, including St John’s Gospel and ALL of the Books of the Old and New Testament.

You do approve the Canon of the Bible set by The Church 6th century A.D.? Well then you have accepted the Authority of the RCC, and its Magisterium… after that you just get to pick and choose? right? what Liturgical readings do you use? The One from the RCC during the late sixties(?) early seventies(?) Even the Lutheran, Episcopalians use them.

Really you do not accept apostolic succession?( Remember You have to be sent… Jesus sent the Apostles and the Apostles sent men out to preach) and you think that Biblical? I can go back to Numbers 27:15

Num 27:15 Moses said to the LORD,
16 “Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, appoint a man over the congregation,
17 who shall go out before them and come in before them, who shall lead them out and bring them in; that the congregation of the LORD may not be as sheep which have no shepherd.”
18 And the LORD said to Moses, “Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay your hand upon him;
19 cause him to stand before Elea’zar the priest and all the congregation, and you shall commission him in their sight.
:20 You shall invest him with some of your authority, that all the congregation of the people of Israel may obey.
21 And he shall stand before Elea’zar the priest, who shall inquire for him by the judgment of the Urim before the LORD; at his word they shall go out, and at his word they shall come in, both he and all the people of Israel with him, the whole congregation.”
22 And Moses did as the LORD commanded him; he took Joshua and caused him to stand before Elea’zar the priest and the whole congregation,
23 and he laid his hands upon him, and commissioned him as the LORD directed through Moses

Whats it say in Ecclesiastes? “Nothing knew under the Sun.”

Who is Christ? The Word of God, who became incarnate like a prophet like Moses, what does Jesus do? He appoints one man over the Congregation, so that we will not be as Sheep without a Shepherd.
Jesus did exactly what He had done with the Christian community as He did with the nation of Israel, His chosen people. He appointed ONe Man as the head steward, until his return… how did the Apostles deal with that that filled the seat whenever it was vacated.

Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, ‘Let his habitation become desolate, and let there be no one to live in it’; **and ‘His office let another take.’ **

1:24 And they prayed and said, "Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen.

1:26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthi’as; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles.

It is a requirement in Holy Scripture that women who worship God have their heads covered. It is clearly in Holy Scripture (I quoted it earlier) and we would not change it, as you recently have for your own reasons yet to be explained. I am NOT referring to nuns but all females who worship God as Christians

.

Is this written in stone? is it really a Doctrine, Dogma of the Church in Which all have to obey??? It is a Cultural, traditional, a custom, practice> an opinionated command ever hear of the word ‘Dictum.’

Want another example? You used the term fathers before you? correct, Well what does Jesus say in Scripture say about that???

(Mat 23:9) And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

I can explain this verse, can you??? But according to you this verse in Scripture is written in Stone in fact Jesus has stated it Himself, yet you use the fathers… i guess its okay for you to decide what you’ll obey and force others to obey.

You keep harping on that one verse totally ignoring that Paul also states:

(RSV) 1Cor 116(b) but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil.

11: 15 (b) For her hair is given to her for a covering.

What say you now???

How many women have shaved or disheveled hair in your community??

There Must be extreme cases of ‘Female Pattern Baldness’ going on over there!!
maybe even the whole community is over-run with it!
God bless,
John

 

[John_oxios]

= PeterClatworthy;6099663]John,
So, your earlier protestations about scripture being the Word of God and unchangeable is demonstrably a statement of convenience rather than one of serious religious doctrine. To make jokes about it is, of course, blasphemous. We are FAR more strict about these things than you are

.

I didn’t say unchangeable… I said, The RCC is not a religion of the Book alone, first and foremost the Word of God is alive, we are not stuck in a two thousand yr. old customs, traditions, and culture… the Church grows and is ever growing.

2000 yrs ago people didn’t question the Apostles, but later on, things needed to be explained… doctrines, dogmas of the Church developed out of the need to explain what the Church teaches and what the apostles taught… the Apostles Creed, Nicene Creed the Canon of the Bible, even the N.T. itself were all l the result of defending and defining what the Church taught.

Paul didn’t eat Pork, so why do you?? If you so strictly follow his example in the letters to the Churches’

The Bible came out of the Church, not the other way around, Paul didn’t start writing til 50 a.d.? approx. The term ’ Catholic’ is used to describe the Church by Ignatious in a homily dated 100 a.d.

Now, you are as entitled to your beliefs, as I am. I will not denegrate yours in the way that you denegrate others. If you do not mind, I will restrict our discussions to the level of civilised debate, and I am quite happy to discuss the reasons for the clashes of ideology without rancour or bitterness. You too are entitled to your beliefs and to be treated with respect for your views.

Again, you haven’t given me anything on how you can make the Statement, the Bible is non historical? You called it my history? Without my Church History, YOu have no Church history! ]

I took that as 'not your history…And then at the same time say you believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ… isn’t faith believing?

1Cor 10:11 "Now these things happened to them as a warning, but they were written down for our instruction, upon whom the end of the ages has come."

That statement alone makes the Bible Historical! Until the end of the age.

Denegrate??? You like to cut and run, I’m just standing up for what took me 45 yrs. to come to believe in with all my heart! you want to take it apart with one verse?
Everything the Roman Catholic Church does is Scriptural.
I don’t need to attack, I’ll stand firm and defend my faith though.

God bless,
John

 

[John_oxios]

John, I am not criticising, and I haven’t. All I am trying to find out is what you mean so that we can have a sensible discussion.

Well, what I can tell you ( and I am telling you, not asking you) is that the Celtic Christian faith has never been dissolved. The Harodim has been continued uninterrupted since its inception and there are many hundreds of us around the world, including the United States of America. I simply do not know where you get the idea that it was “dissolved”. Perhaps you would be so kind as to provide us with the source for your “information”