Scripture: What's myth and what's history?

[PeterClatworthy]

Hello PeterC
Hello, So say you, However I doubt very much he was into:

.

Anybody can paint a picture, draw up a stain glass window, write a book and call it the gospel according to___ it doesn’t make it truth!

Is this a true belief outside the Church? Pre-Davidic mysteries? In Christ any thing hidden will be revealed through His Church. What can freemasons give you that ya can’t get in Christ’s Church?
Pre-Davidic ancient mysteries?? C’mon, how can you prove what you say about these is true? Like I said you just rewrite what you want and the members have to adhere to your so-called truths?

The Jews don’t need the written Law, Because when you accept Christ, the law is written on our hearts and we our Guided by Christ’s Church and the Holy Spirit.
Where does it say St. Patrick accepted your freemason teachings?

Gal 2:1 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me.

Gal 2:2 I went up by revelation; and I laid before them (but privately before those who were of repute) the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, lest somehow I should be running or had run in vain.

3 But even Titus, who was with me, was not compelled to be circumcised, though he was a Greek.

4 But because of false brethren secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy out our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage–
5 to them we did not yield submission even for a moment, that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.

Eph 1:9 For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ
10 as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him, according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will,
12 we who first hoped in Christ have been destined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory.
13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints,
:16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers,

Isn’t it the Church empowered to bind and loose? (forbid and permit) and as that power what it binds or permits is bound or permitted in Heaven!! Show me freeMasonary in the Gospels? Paul’s writings? In any of the Epistles? Revelations?

Grace comes at the revelation of Jesus Christ,
1Pe 1:7 “so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold which though perishable is tested by fire, may redound to praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ”
pre davidic mysteries of ??? Free masonary______ I dun__no know!!!

Why good is freemasonary? Better to spend your time as fashion police in your Local Church, if the Gospel, and the Bible is read entirely… ‘Faith comes by hearing’ the Words of Jesus Christ,

St Patrick was a Celtic Christian, and definitely NOT a Roman Catholic. He is dressed accordingly in that stained glass window as a Culdee Priest in the Holy Order, which was placed there in Armagh for good reason.

You have conveniently cherry picked again. St Columba?. Look at his tonsure and then take a look at mine (picture on website).

I would not be so desperately rude to suggest that you are wasting your time in your Church, so please have the courtesy not to do so in my case. I am in your house. Is this how you treat your guests? If it is then it is a shame on the Catholic Faith.

Why are Catholics so unecessarily aggressive? Nasty at times

 

[John_oxios]

St Patrick was a Celtic Christian, and definitely NOT a Roman Catholic. He is dressed accordingly in that stained glass window as a Culdee Priest in the Holy Order, which was placed there in Armagh for good reason.

You have conveniently cherry picked again. St Columba?. Look at his tonsure and then take a look at mine (picture on website).

I would not be so desperately rude to suggest that you are wasting your time in your Church, so please have the courtesy not to do so in my case. I am in your house. Is this how you treat your guests? If it is then it is a shame on the Catholic Faith.

Why are Catholics so unecessarily aggressive? Nasty at times

 Hello PeterC,
                  Mo? Cherry pickin' compared to you I pick the whole enchilada, you have yet to respond on any of my scripture texts (i.e womens veils, Judge for yourselves.. a womens hair is her covering veil?  'Call no man father'

I don’t know St Columba, though I have heard of her…

Picked this off wikipedia:
the local Church affirmed that they could be liturgically celebrated as saints. As a result, St. Patrick has never been formally canonized by a Pope; nevertheless, various Christian churches declare that he is a Saint in Heaven (he is in the List of Saints). He is still widely venerated in Ireland and elsewhere today.

from, americancatholic.org/Features/Saints/saint.aspx?id=1325

Details of his life are uncertain. Current research places his dates of birth and death a little later than earlier accounts. Patrick may have been born in Dunbarton, Scotland, Cumberland, England, or in northern Wales. He called himself both a Roman and a Briton. At 16, he and a large number of his father’s slaves and vassals were captured by Irish raiders and sold as slaves in Ireland. Forced to work as a shepherd, he suffered greatly from hunger and cold.

After six years, Patrick escaped, probably to France, and later returned to Britain at the age of 22. His captivity had meant spiritual conversion. He may have studied at Lerins, off the French coast; he spent years at Auxerre, France, and was consecrated bishop at the age of 43. His great desire was to proclaim the Good News to the Irish.

In a dream vision it seemed “all the children of Ireland from their mothers’ wombs were stretching out their hands” to him. He understood the vision to be a call to do mission work in pagan Ireland. Despite opposition from those who felt his education had been defective, he was sent to carry out the task. He went to the west and north, where the faith had never been preached, obtained the protection of local kings and made numerous converts.

It doesn’t say anything about being a fremason, Freemasonry is a form of Gnostism, you are enlightened by the head guy and move up by degrees, Being sent by a Bishop of the Church in France, @ age 43, would make him Roman Catholic, being sent to Ireland gave him authority to preach Christ from the RCC, (remember you have to be sent).
The Church was against gnostism as a heresy, and back in St. Patricks day, possibly the Church had not of yet had trouble with it… or maybe like Paul, (he used what they knew and practiced to preach Christ, Paul didn’t become a Borean?, nor Greek ) today, it advises against it… so why go there… your big attraction seems to be it was good enough for St. Patrick “Following the arrival of Saint Patrick and other Christian missionaries in the early to mid-5th century AD, Christianity subsumed the indigenous Celtic religion by the year 600”
Dictioanry.com: sub⋅sume  
–verb

1. to consider or include (an idea, term, proposition, etc.) as part of a more comprehensive one.
2. to bring (a case, instance, etc.) under a rule.
3. to take up into a more inclusive classification
   en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ireland#Early_Christian_Ireland_400.E2.80.93800

and St. Columba, Not a Roman catholic?

well:
Saint Columba is the patron saint of the city of Derry in Ireland. The saint founded a monastic settlement there in c. AD 540. The name of the city in Irish is Doire Colmcille and is derived from the native oak trees in the area and the city’s association with the great saint. Today, the Roman Catholic Church of Saint Columba’s Long Tower stands at the spot of this original settlement

The Church has been known as Catholic since at least 100 a.d. Earliest written proof, is by St. Ignatius 100 a.d

What advantage it it to join your freemason society over the RC Church? What can you accomplish in secret there that cannot be done in the Open Church?

God bless,
John

 

[buffalo]

Genesis as dialogue: a literary, historical, & theological commentary

 

[John_oxios]

John,

It was good enough for St Columba: and it was good enough for St Patrick.

Hello PeterC,
Paintings and images may paint a thousand words but after all their images. You really need to come up with more proof than that!

I looked on your famous masons page.

grandlodgeofallengland.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=44&Itemid=55&limit=1&limitstart=1
while the archbishop of canterbury was there, along with Harpo Marx, Peter Sellers, Col. Sanders, Oliver hardy, Rudyard Kipling and John Wayne (a Presbyterian) along with others… any Catholics in the lot??
Your group fails to List St. Patrick or St. Columba, or even St. Columban… as noted/famous freemasomries?

All you have given me as ‘proof’ is a stained glass window, and your say so…Hmmm:wink: I’ll stick to the RCC thank you very much, even with its unveiled women.
Show me where St. Patrick renounce’s the authority of the Pope, the Church? In which he was ordained and took a solemn vow to protect its teachings? The Celtic Church became Catholic, Celi De? I dunnnn__know!

You don’t believe in apostolic succession? but you believe that:

the Lodge must be properly secured against encroachment; The Holy Book must be open in the Lodge whilst it is at work; Masonic rites and rituals are unalterable and the ritualistic character of Freemasonry must remain inviolate; the Lodge must be governed according to the Ancient Laws, Rules, Regulations and Traditions of the Craft; the Grand-Master Mason is ultimately responsible for the government of the Fraternity and his prerogatives to make Freemasons, grant dispensations, warrant Lodges to meet, and to preside over every assembly of the Craft are inviolate; the equality of the Brethren is an unalterable principle; Freemasonry is based upon the doctrine of Brotherly Love, Relief and Truth; these Landmarks cannot be changed and are inviolate; The Grand Lodge of All England at York is the guardian of the Ancient Landmarks of

Seems to me you guys got a pope of your own, you just call him, “Grand Master Masom” I guess through whom all enlightenment flows concerning interpretation of Scripture?

Without The RCC, you have no Christian history, no St Patrick, no st Columba, No Bible? then again Free masons have their own Bible, I have one!

God bless,
John

Gotta love it

 

[John_oxios]

John,

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/grandsecretary/StPatrickofArmagh.jpg

and it was good enough for St Patrick.

Show me your Masonic Lodge symbols in this particular, stained glass window? Or the Columba one?
It must be the Halo around their heads.
God bless,
John

 

[PeterClatworthy]

St Patrick is dressed as a High Priest in the Holy Order. Urim and Thummin, Ephod, a stone of peculiar shape, symbols in his left a right hands, the golden crown, etc., etc… This window is packed full of Free Masonic references including a graphic picture of a lodge.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

St Columba, as you should know, was a Culdee Monk and that picture depicts him as such, including the tonsure.

There is no doubt about it:

Peace to their shades. The pure Culdees
Were Albyn’s earliest priests of God,
Ere yet an island of her seas
By foot of Saxon monk was trod.

 

[John_oxios]

St Patrick is dressed as a High Priest in the Holy Order. Urim and Thummin, Ephod, a stone of peculiar shape, symbols in his left a right hands, the golden crown, etc., etc… This window is packed full of Free Masonic references including a graphic picture of a lodge.

St Columba, as you should know, was a Culdee Monk and that picture depicts him as such, including the tonsure.

There is no doubt about it: **

Hi PeterC,
Su_ re shaw: Peter, :doh2: there’s no doubt about it,
How’s the saying go? “The Eye sees what it wants to see”
We Roman Catholics, ought disobey the Church and flock to the Free Masons, because some stained glass window made long after St.Patrick passed (Stained Glass windows, 12th Century a.d. Notre Dame was the first Church with stained Glass windows)… because your interpretation says it’s a Freemason rock symbol?

What if I say the Rock in the Picture on top of the Bible represents Christ one holy Apostolic Church, i.e. the Catholic Church?

You also stated that St Patrick wasn’t Roman Catholic?

When I said Celi De was dissolved 450 yrs ago, you came back with:

PeterC, "Well, what I can tell you ( and I am telling you, not asking you) is that the Celtic Christian faith has never been dissolved…

That is a deception, I didn’t question, the ‘Celtic’ Catholic Church, just Celi De

In Post #532, You say:

PeterC,
St Patrick of Armagh may be seen here dressed in the Order of Harodim. He was not a Roman Catholic, as I am sure you know. This stained glass window is in Armagh Abbey. None of the saints that I listed for you were Roman Catholics, they were all Celtic Johannine Christians.

Clearly He was Ordained a Roman Catholic Priest and later Bishop, to Ireland.

  Let's see what I see, When you say Johnanian, do you mean this?

here was a lesser known primary Christic streaming established by St. John the Evangelist. To quote Benjamin Walker in his work Gnosticism: Its History and Influence (1983): “From the very beginnings of the new Church there was a body of doctrine stemming from John to whom, it was said, the true secrets of Christianity had been communicated by Jesus. This teaching was strongly tinged with gnosticism. The Apocryphon of John, or the secret book of John, purports to reveal the ‘**mysteries concealed in silence’ that Jesus taught him. The book was cited by Irenaeus, and a version of it was also found at Nag Hammadi. Many gnostic schools claimed the canonical gospel of John as a work embodying their own doctrines, and used it as a primary source of their teachings….It presents a mystical rather than a historical Jesus, **with concepts derived from Alexandrian philosophy.” This Church of John and its followers, who have been called Johannine Christians, appears to have had roots both in the Middle East and Western Europe.

God Bless,
John

 

[adriancombe]

Thanks for this, The last paragraph:

Conclusion

Divine Revelation and “myth” are irreconcilable.

The Bible mentions “myth” in a negative light.*

Tradition, via the Church Fathers, criticizes the term and concept of "myth."*

The Magisterium of the Catholic Church, in numerous official pronouncements, has not employed in a positive way the term or concept of “myth.”

"Myth" has a place in secular literature, but no home in the Catholic Faith.

Salvatore J. Ciresi is a part-time faculty member of Christendom College’s Graduate School and a full-time civilian employee for the U.S. military. He resides with his wife and children in Spotsylvania, Virginia, where he directs the St. Jerome Biblical Guild.

You are welcome of course.

While I was answering something from another thread I also stumbled upon this:

vatican.va/roman_curia/synod/documents/rc_synod_doc_20081025_elenco-prop-finali_it.html

While it appears to only be available in Italian, and my ability to read Italian is far from perfect (I’ve studied French, Spanish & Latin, as well as visiting Italy twice), the following phrase:

" Questo metodo è reso necessario dalla natura stessa della storia della salvezza, che non è una mitologia, ma una vera storia con il suo apice nell’incarnazione del Verbo, divino ed eterno, che viene ad abitare il tempo degli uomini (cf. Gv 1, 14"

clearly means:

“This method is rendered necessary by the very nature of salvation history, **which is not mythology **, but a true history with its climax in the Incarnation of the Divine and Eternal Word, who comes to inhabit the world of the men (cf. John 1:14)”

Mind you, this is not magisterial document. This is from the propositions voted by a majority of Synodal Bishops in 2008. But it is consistent with the history of exegesis already elucidated, and was submitted to the Pope and CDF for them to base teaching on.

 

[Pete_Holter]

Mind you, this is not magisterial document. This is from the propositions voted by a majority of Synodal Bishops in 2008. But it is consistent with the history of exegesis already elucidated, and was submitted to the Pope and CDF for them to base teaching on.

Thanks for posting this, Adrian! Here is an English translation provided by Zenit:
“The biblical hermeneutic proposed in “Dei Verbum,” 12, continues to be of great present importance and efficacy, which envisages two different and correlative methodological levels.

“The first level corresponds, in fact, to the so-called historical-critical methods that, in modern and contemporary research, often was used with fruitfulness and that entered the Catholic field, above all with the encyclical “Divino Afflante Spiritu” of the servant of God Pius XII. This method is necessary by the very nature of the history of salvation, which is not mythology, but a true history with its apex in the incarnation of the Word, divine and eternal, who comes to dwell in men’s time (cf. John 1:14). The Bible and the history of salvation, therefore, also call for study with the methods of serious historical research” (Synod Propositions 21-25).

Related to this is Cardinal Ratzinger’s address on the Current Doctrinal Relevance of the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
“The Christian faith has its specificity, primarily in that it refers to historical events, or better to a coherent history, which actually took place as history. In this sense, the question about the fact, the reality of the event, is essential to [the Christian faith], and must make room for the historical method. But these historical events have meaning for the faith only because it is certain that in them God Himself acted in a specific way and the events contain something which surpasses simple historical facticity, something which comes from elsewhere and gives them meaning for all times and for all people. This surpassing element must not be separated from the facts, it is not a meaning which is subsequently added to them from without, but rather it is present in the event itself, and yet it transcends the purely factual aspect.”

Your brother in the LORD,
Pete

 

[PeterClatworthy]

Clearly He was Ordained a Roman Catholic Priest and later Bishop, to Ireland.

John

I suggest you provide proof for this claim.

 

[PeterClatworthy]

it transcends the purely factual aspect.”

Your brother in the LORD,
Pete

Exactly.

 

[adriancombe]

Thanks for posting this, Adrian! Here is an English translation provided by Zenit:
“The biblical hermeneutic proposed in “Dei Verbum,” 12, continues to be of great present importance and efficacy, which envisages two different and correlative methodological levels.

“The first level corresponds, in fact, to the so-called historical-critical methods that, in modern and contemporary research, often was used with fruitfulness and that entered the Catholic field, above all with the encyclical “Divino Afflante Spiritu” of the servant of God Pius XII. This method is necessary by the very nature of the history of salvation, which is not mythology, but a true history with its apex in the incarnation of the Word, divine and eternal, who comes to dwell in men’s time (cf. John 1:14). The Bible and the history of salvation, therefore, also call for study with the methods of serious historical research” (Synod Propositions 21-25).

Related to this is Cardinal Ratzinger’s address on the Current Doctrinal Relevance of the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
“The Christian faith has its specificity, primarily in that it refers to historical events, or better to a coherent history, which actually took place as history. In this sense, the question about the fact, the reality of the event, is essential to [the Christian faith], and must make room for the historical method. But these historical events have meaning for the faith only because it is certain that in them God Himself acted in a specific way and the events contain something which surpasses simple historical facticity, something which comes from elsewhere and gives them meaning for all times and for all people. This surpassing element must not be separated from the facts, it is not a meaning which is subsequently added to them from without, but rather it is present in the event itself, and yet it transcends the purely factual aspect.”

Your brother in the LORD,
Pete

I guess I should read all those emails zenit sends me more carefully lol. Thanks for catching this. My brain was starting to hurt trying to read all that Italian…

 

[John_oxios]

I suggest you provide proof for this claim.

hello PeterC
You call me bigotted? You can’t even admit St Patrick was sent and ordained a Roman Catholic Priest, was sent by the Pope to Ireland?? :irish3::extrahappy:

I guess you never heard this one before? Seem like you fell for the liberty Valance effect,"When the legend becomes fact, Print the Legend.

Its easy to lookup even Wikipedia says he was ordained in the Church:
"After entering the Church, he returned to Ireland as an ordained bishop in the north and west of the island

I HAVE, look up when and where St Patrick was ordained , At age 47, he was ordained in France. Which is Roman Catholic. then he returned to Ireland.

You mean, You, the enlightened One don’t know??? That
(This is a no brainer, a simple search on Ask.com gave me
ewtn.com/saintsHoly/saints/P/stpatrick.asp
5th pargraph
…When Patrick was again restored to his kinfolk, they gave him a warm welcome and urged him to stay. But he felt he must leave them. Although there is no certainty as to the order of events which followed, it seems likely that Patrick now spent many years in Gaul. Professor Bury, author of the well-known , thinks that the saint stayed for three years at the monastery of Lerins, on a small islet off the coast of modern Cannes, France, and that about fifteen years were passed at the monastery of Auxerre, where he was ordained. Patrick’s later prestige and authority indicate that he was prepared for his task with great thoroughness.
We now come to Patrick’s apostolate. At this time Pelagianism[1] was spreading among the weak and scattered Christian communities of Britain and Ireland, and Pope Celestine I had sent Bishop Palladius there to combat it. This missionary was killed among the Scots in North Britain, and Bishop Germanus of Auxerre recommended the appointment of Patrick to replace him. Patrick was consecrated in 432, and departed forthwith for Ireland. When we try to trace the course of his labors in the land of his former captivity, we are confused by the contradictory accounts of his biographers; all are marked by a great deal of vagueness as to geography and chronology. According to tradition, he landed at Inverdea, at the mouth of the river Vautry, and immediately proceeded northwards. …
… hearing of Patrick’s return, set fire to his house and perished in the flames. There is historical basis for the tradition of Patrick’s preliminary stay in Ulster, and his founding of a monastic center there. It was at this time that he set out to gain the support and favor of the powerful pagan King Laeghaire, who was holding court at Tara. The stories of Patrick’s encounter with the king’s Druid priests are probably an accretion of later years; we are told of trials of skill and strength in which the saint gained a great victory over his pagan opponents.

…In 439 three bishops, Secundinus, Auxilius, and Iserninus, were sent from Gaul to assist Patrick. Benignus, an Irish chieftain who was converted by Patrick, became his favorite disciple, his coadjutor in the see of Armagh, and, finally, his successor…
**
…About the year 442, tradition tells us, Patrick went to Rome and met Pope Leo the Great,** who, it seemed, took special interest in the Irish Church. The time had now come for a definite organization According to the annals of Ulster, the cathedral church of Armagh was founded as the primatial see of Ireland on Patrick’s return. He brought back with him valuable relics. Latin was established as the language of the Irish Church. There is mention of a synod held by Patrick, probably at Armagh. The rules then adopted are still preserved**, with, possibly, some later interpolations. …**
…Patrick died about 461, and was buried near the fortress of Saul, in the vicinity of the future cathedral town of Down.
newadvent.org/cathen/11554a.htm
"No sooner had St. Germain entered on his great mission at Auxerre than Patrick put himself under his guidance, and it was at that great bishop’s hands that Ireland’s future apostle was a few years later promoted to the priesthood. It is the tradition in the territory of the Morini that Patrick under St. Germain’s guidance for some years was engaged in missionary work among them. **When Germain commissioned by the Holy See **proceeded to Britain to combat the erroneous teachings of Pelagius, **he chose Patrick to be one of his missionary **
God bless,
John

 

[John_oxios]

I suggest you provide proof for this claim.

Got so much on this I was 1127 characters over the limit so cont’d:

Germain sent him, accompanied by Segetius, his priest, to Celestine, Pope of Rome, approved of by whose judgement, supported by whose authority, and strengthened by whose blessing, he went on his way to Ireland." It was only shortly before his death that Celestine gave this mission to Ireland’s apostle and on that occasion bestowed on him many relics and other spiritual gifts, and gave him the name “Patercius” or “Patritius”, not as an honorary title, but as a foreshadowing of the fruitfulness and merit of his apostolate whereby he became pater civium (the father of his people). Patrick on his return journey from Rome received at Ivrea the tidings of the death of Palladius, and turning aside to the neighboring city of Turin received episcopal consecration at the hands of its great bishop, St. Maximus, and thence hastened on to Auxerre to make under the guidance of St. Germain due preparations for the Irish mission.

Let’s go Three is a # of totality, #4 is all inclusive:

ttp://www.angelfire.com/ca2/luci1/stpatrick.html

…As a result of his experiences in Ireland, Patrick became driven by the idea of converting the Irish to Christianity. To prepare himself for that task, he studied in the monastery of Lerins, on an island off the southeast coast of France. Patrick also went to Auxerre, France, and studied religion under Saint Germanus, a French bishop. Partly because Patrick’s earlier education was inadequate, his religious superiors were reluctant to let him return to Ireland as a missionary. But Palladius, the first Irish missionary bishop, died in 431. Pope Celestine I then sent Patrick to Ireland.
And you’re trying to tell me, St Patrick didn’t answer top the Pope??? :doh2:
At least I have investigated your websir=tes read your literature on the Web… but even they contradict the very things you say? i.e. Celi De, a we got a psotition open for you, however you feel, we’ll fit you in? You can’t do that in the RCC.
How many times do we have to show you you’re incorrect, before you open your eyes to see? Oh yeeah, ‘Faith comes buy hearing…’ maybe you need an audio Compact disc… maybe even a DVD

 

[John_oxios]

And may God bless you too John, I am sure that he will. I agree, totally, that the Roman Catholic Church traces its roots back to Jesus our Saviour as does the Celtic Christian Church.

May I take this opportunity to wish you and yours, also ALL other contributors to this forum a very happy and prosperous New Year.

Through the RCC

 

[PeterClatworthy]

Through the RCC

He was sent to convert the population of Ireland to Christianity at a time when the battle was being lost. He was the only man with sufficient credibility due to his direct Royal family connections. No Roman could possibly have succeeded.

There is nothing in your posting, except propaganda, to suggest that St Patrick was a Roman Catholic and I know enough about him, and Ireland, to know that he would NEVER have conceded power to Rome.

“S. Ninian, carrying from S. Martin at Tours the enthusiasm for monasticism and culture of the East, and, later, S. Patrick, likewise imbued with monastic zeal which he had acquired both at Lerins and at Tours - returned to their respective countries, Scotland and Ireland, and founded religious settlements which, before many years should elapse, were calculated to wield an influence universally felt not only in the British Isles but on the Continent of Europe. We thus see that the influence of Asia Minor and of Egypt came to the early Celtic Church in Britain from Gaul in two streams which eventually met and merged into one; the first came from S. Martin through S. Ninian to Whithorn, in Galloway, whence, through S. Finnian it passed to Moville in Ireland and from Moville through S. Columba to Iona and the Celts of Scotland in 563 A.D. The second originated at Lerins and through S. Martin at Tours and S. Patrick it passed to Ireland, where it joined the other. There seemed to be a peculiar affinity between the tribal or clan system of the Celts and the monasticism of Egypt. The monasterium or collegium both in Egypt and in Celtic Ireland and Scotland consisted of a number of huts which were dwellings of the clerical and lay monks and their families, for many of the latter were married.” (SOURCE: The Celtic Church and the Influence of the East, Rev’d John Stirton, B.D., F.S.A. [Scot.]: 1923 )

You are deluded and propagandised John, and I will not hear any more such nonsense. A Culdee would NEVER do such a thing and St Patrick was a Culdee.

End of.

You have NOT dealt with my previous posting about your bigotry over the difference between the Moderns and ourselves. As I said, you are not being honest.

 

[adriancombe]

I understand the whole St. Patrick thing is gripping drama to some but it is off topic. Perhaps those interested in that should start a new thread.

 

[John_oxios]

He was sent to convert the population of Ireland to Christianity at a time when the battle was being lost. He was the only man with sufficient credibility due to his direct Royal family connections. No Roman could possibly have succeeded.

There is nothing in your posting, except propaganda, to suggest that St Patrick was a Roman Catholic and I know enough about him, and Ireland, to know that he would NEVER have conceded power to Rome.

You are deluded and propagandised John, and I will not hear any more such nonsense. A Culdee would NEVER do such a thing and St Patrick was a Culdee.

You have NOT dealt with my previous posting about your bigotry over the difference between the Moderns and ourselves. As I said, you are not being honest.

Sorry Peter C,
How many Catholic Churches were there in the time St.Patrick was ordained? Remember the Western Roman Church, and the Eastern Orthodox had not yet split! That happened in the 12th Century.

You say he was sent??Was your story? Who sent him and from where???

I guess, those four references, not one, not TWO, not THREE BUT FOUR references must be deluded also??? Do you want more refs to back up those references?

First of all St. Pat considered himself a Roman, not Culdee. Show me viable reference outside your lil world where it says what you say it says?

You give me a picture of a stained glass window made after the 12th century as proof he wasn’t Roman Catholic??? Okay why would the Pope of Rome send St. Patrick prior to his sainthood to Rome as a Bishop of the Church, if he wasn’t first a} Catholic Priest??

All you have shown me as references are your own Corporations four yr. old self made reference’s.
Forty yrs a priest in Ireland? and ya didn’t know StPatrick was a Roman catholic Bishop??? Where ya been? under some kind of masonic rock?

I’ve dealt with each and every claim you’ve made, all you keep to is your planned ‘pater’. Seems ya can’t get off that wide broad yellowstone road.

you insult your very own intelligence ignoring four references of historical fact.

When the legend becomes fact, print the legend, whatever part of the rock your on I doubt your legend rings true anywhere else.
I have no bigotry over moderns and yourselves, I really don’t care, but all you seem to say is we’re not them and there not us??? HellOOOOO why do you cal yourself a Freemasonrie, if you don’t want to have any association with whoever the other group is???

God bless,
Johnnie O

 

[John_oxios]

Thank you for posting this John.

It makes it quite clear that any condemnation by the Catholic Church is specifically targeted at the Moderns form of freemasonry that was self-started in 1717 and constituted in 1723, The Grand Lodge of London, “a product of the Enlightenment”.

The Free Masonrie of the Grand Lodge of All England IS the Holy Priestly Order of the Céli Dé . Pure history.

Hello PeterC,

   I feel like the detective Columbo here,,,,  :hmmm: So et me get this straight, your a priest of forty yrs in Celi De whose chareter is four yrs old? I'm sorry but the math doesn't add up :doh2:

god bless,
john

 

[PeterClatworthy]

Hello PeterC,

   I feel like the detective Columbo here,,,,  :hmmm: So et me get this straight, your a priest of forty yrs in Celi De whose chareter is four yrs old? I'm sorry but the math doesn't add up :doh2:

god bless,
john

You are simply a bigot.