More good.points …
…I think that you’ve hit it… but not tradition: Tradition. The Church existed prior to New Testament Scriptures and it is the Church not Scriptures that gave us both the New Testament Writings and the complete compiliation known as the Bible (all 73 books); it is through Apostolic Tradition (Teaching of the Apostles which includes both Written and Oral Teachings) that we have the developed Church (Scriptures, Tradition, Doctrines)–ever heard of any Believer call out ‘wait, wait, let me check with my copy of the Sacred Writings’ when Jesus or any of the Apostles were preaching? …that particular practice began around the 16th century AD, I suspect as a Protestant tool to make themselves more authoritative than the Church (which they accused of keeping the Word of God from the people).
…so, only a protestant would fault Sacred Tradition since it is Tradition that has given the world the Doctrines of the Church, the Bible, and Church hierarchy (structure)!
…not quite… St. John tells us that we cannot pray for that sin that leads to death… Jesus already explained that there’s only One Sin that Leads to Death–it is for this sin that none can pray… but not because Yahweh God wants any to die (Eternal Death) but because this is the rejection of the Holy Spirit (Faith)… none can carry anyone else into Salvation (remember the parable of Lazarus and the rich man?); each person is obligated to repent, turn to God and gain his/her salvation (Eternal Life hidden in Christ Jesus)…
…a quick note: not assaulting mankind but Believers–her other sons, those who are Christ’s disciples!:Ah. You wanted it completely spelled out in the perfect “proof text”? It’s nice when we can do that … but on that basis I couldn’t prove the Trinity either. Except by putting scriptures together and noting that there is a Father, a Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Actually scripture is PART of Church tradition. The Church pre-dated the New Testament being written and then canonized … and it wasn’t until the 1450’s that the Bible was mass produced via the Gutenberg Bible … written in Latin.
Church authority does not derive from Scripture but Christ. Though it is recalled in scripture.
Actually, Catholics don’t HAVE to pray to saints at all. It’s not part of the creed. But we may.
My conversing with you here is not an affront to God. Although I could be praying. And maybe that WOULD be better.
Nor would asking you to pray for me. Or asking you for help of some kind “when God’s help would be sufficient!”
Jesus spoke with Moses and Elijah though they were “dead”*.
Luke 9:28 About eight days after he said this, he took Peter, John, and James and went up the mountain to pray.
29 While he was praying his face changed in appearance and his clothing became dazzling white.
30 And behold, two men were conversing with him, Moses and Elijah,
31 who appeared in glory and spoke of his exodus that he was going to accomplish in Jerusalem.
Why Jesus included them in His work is His business. Regarding that “exodus” …
- Elijah didn’t “die” as Moses did … but was taken up in a whirlwind. Nevertheless here they are “in glory” even before this “exodus” he was about to accomplish in Jerusalem.
Matt 27:50 But Jesus cried out again in a loud voice, and gave up his spirit.
51 And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. 31 The earth quaked, rocks were split,
52 tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised.
53 And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.
These had the miraculous power to appear to people. And were not “dead but living”.
And as you noted, other saints present prayers to the throne in heaven.
Revelation 6:11 When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God.
10 They cried out in a loud voice, “How long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?”
11 Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to be patient a little while longer until the number was filled of their fellow servants and brothers who were going to be killed as they had been.
Saints in heaven make requests of God. The requests are granted but in God’s time.
In Genesis 3:15 God tells the snake (Satan) : I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel."
The Biblical capitalization of He refers to Jesus. The woman He was the offspring of was Mary. “Most blessed among women.” Whose “Let it be done unto me according to your word” (Yes) cancelled out Eve’s rebellion.
Revelation 12 picks up the story of the snake and the woman again. The serpent, now grown to a dragon confronts the woman about to give birth. It recalls Herod trying to kill the Child Jesus (the coming King). John alludes to Jesus’ power and ascension into heaven. The dragon then turns to attack “the woman” but heaven protects her. He then turns to her “other offspring.”
These are those who (like Mary) accept Christ as their savior and keep his commandments. Thereafter come the visions of the beasts assaulting mankind.
Revelation 12 also recalls heavenly battles with Satan being cast out of heaven by other Angels. So Angels as well as saints have “powers”. And use them to serve God … and sometimes man too if it is in harmony with God’s plans for us.
Actually your questions are calling me to remember many fine lessons from scripture - even if we never agree on the place of saints in our lives. Ah well. Life is short.
Hopefully we will BE with the saints when our time here has ended. And we will know more about the Lord then – than we do now.
…I know this seems petty… but I keep noticing how we are all children of God… and other inclusive terms that are quite hollowoodsy and not at all Scriptural!
Are u saying John wasn’t saying we can’t perform INTERCESSARY prayer for another’s Mortal sins (the Big 10), …but he was only talking about those who OPENLY were rejecting the Holy Spirit ?.. that we shouldn’t pray for’ that sin alone’ …to be covered from the merits of Christ ?
…we are asking for their intercession much like St. Paul’s:
…each of the passages above demonstrate the Communion of the Saints as St. Paul or another Believer/s is praying or requesting prayers not directly from Christ or the Father but from another Believer/s–it is as though St. Paul’s personal connection with Christ, the Father or the Holy Spirit was not good enough or in a lesser standing than those whom were initiated into the Faith by St. Paul or another one of the Apostles… the fact is not a lack but rather a Union in the Body!
…real proof?
Hi, fred conty!
…it’s simple… wherever you find that the Holy Spirit is pitted against the Holy Spirit… well that’s tradition (even if it claims some sort of backlash connection with the first century AD)… now, when you come accross something you do not truly understand or that seems contrary to what you believe Sacred Scriptures mean… most likely it is Tradition but you are viewing it outside of Apostolic Faith (One Baptism, One Faith, One Gospel, One Holy Spirit, One Lord, One Christ, One Body–coincidentally all found in Scriptures and all defined by Tradition).
…I know many will claim to know, from Scriptures, exactly what this particular verse is talking about… but even the most obtuse scholars must agree that these instructions are not written down but rather passed down orally (Tradition: worship and doctinal comportment that originates and is conveyed orally; ie: the Gospel).
…that’s the only sin that leads to death… and there’s nothing anyone can do for those who steadfastly refuse/reject God… the conversion of man is done not through other’s prayers but through personal acceptance of God… it is why none of us can convert anyone to God but rather only the Holy Spirit can convicts us of the Truth!
…a quick note: not assaulting mankind but Believers–her other sons, those who are Christ’s disciples!:
Thank the Lord for good editors.
…I know this seems petty… but I keep noticing how we are all children of God… and other inclusive terms that are quite hollowoodsy and not at all Scriptural!
Not sure what you mean specifically in my post … but I think I agree with you that generally an overly rosy Christianity that loves its neighbor but never warns him when it would disturb his slumber can be counter-intuitive at times.
Sometimes Jesus’ words are very inclusive: “Teach all nations” but the same words are “divisive” per Teacher/student and not a presentation of Christ’s truth being an interesting alternative to … all the other “truths”.
Love the term hollowoodsy. I live in the shadow of tinseltown where “nice” can be cloyingly phony and a “whatever … take care” attitude can be shallow as well as hollow.
Come to think of it - Hollywood isn’t the only place THIS happens though.
Speaking of Mary and Scripture, in her Magnificat prayer, after confessing God’s greatness and her own comparative lowliness as His handmaid … she makes some
startling distinctions between the children of God … and those He must chastise:
Luke 1:49 The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name.
50 His mercy is from age to age to those who fear him.
51 He has shown might with his arm, dispersed the arrogant of mind and heart.
52 He has thrown down the rulers from their thrones but lifted up the lowly.
53 The hungry he has filled with good things; the** rich he has sent away empty.**
54 He has helped Israel his servant, remembering his mercy,
55 according to his promise to our fathers, to Abraham and to his descendants forever."
Maran atha!
Angel < My favorite ball team as well as your name. ** - A -** < the Big “A” :angel1:
Understood on the rejection of HS …but, are u sure this was what John was saying we are not to use INTERCESSARY prayer for ? I always was taught he was talking in generic sense, regarding Any Mortal sin. Example: I catch you in lie or theft, but u deny. I’m not allowed to pray to God that he excuse u of that sin, but only that he convict u of it…since only u can make confession of it before God.
Exactly! The Beast/Ancient Serpent will seek the woman’s other children (St. John 1:10-13) to war against them as it tries to undo God’s Salvific Plan!
…I was speaking about myself… that I seem to be bothered by seemingly unimportant issues… but I’ve even heard it from the pulpit… how we are all God’s children or how we are all brothers or how Jesus died for the Salvation of all… yeah, God wants every single person in human history to be Saved… but not every person wants what Yahweh God wants… so while we must labor to understand and accept that every human being has been Created in the Image and Likeness of God… we cannot, as hard as we might, make others into children of God or extend Jesus’ Salvation to those who refuse to humble themselves to Christ’s Will (St. John 3:14-21).
Exactly! …the proverbial line has been drawn (Genesis 3:15; Apocalypse 12) and there are two distinct sides which will hold the hole of humanity… as God tells us in Deuteronomy: we must chose Life!
…here’s the passage:
…it is my understanding that, since the Church has been granted the Authority to forgive sin, only the outright rejection of God can be that very sin of which St. John speaks; the Church can bind or losen… but if the individual refuses to accept God there’s nothing to be done… our intercession goes a long way… but it cannot change a person’s mind/heart… and if my mind/heart rejects God not even the Pope can grant me absolution and life because in my mind/heart I reject it!